Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: will Poncirus Trifoliata rootstock alters ripening season of scionwood?  (Read 572 times)

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
Poncirus Trifoliata fruits have been known to ripen from September to October. My question would be on how it affect the flowering, fruiting, and ripening season of the scionwood.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Probably not too much, I would think.

I grafted a low chill cherry onto a regular cherry (in zone 10 where cherry trees do not do well), and the top part all easily came out of dormancy with vigorous growth, but the regular cherry did not seem that much changed from how it behaved before, so obviously the top graft was not so much effecting the tree below.

What the trifoliata rootstock does do is help force the top scion into dormancy. (Although from what I've observed, that does not necessarily mean leaf loss)

But the answer is a little complicated. You ask does trifoliata rootstock affect things, but what are you comparing it to?
Most nursery citrus trees are grafted onto trifoliata rootstock, or trifoliata hybrid rootstock.

Rootstock that has a dwarfing effect (that's usually the point) induces trees to flower and fruit earlier in their lifetime, and that probably also means flowering a little earlier in the season, during the early part of their lifespan.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 11:09:34 PM by SoCal2warm »

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
Probably not too much, I would think.

I grafted a low chill cherry onto a regular cherry (in zone 10 where cherry trees do not do well), and the top part all easily came out of dormancy with vigorous growth, but the regular cherry did not seem that much changed from how it behaved before, so obviously the top graft was not so much effecting the tree below.

What the trifoliata rootstock does do is help force the top scion into dormancy. (Although from what I've observed, that does not necessarily mean leaf loss)

Rootstock that has a dwarfing effect (that's usually the point) induces trees to flower and fruit earlier in their lifetime, and that probably also means flowering a little earlier in the season, during the early part of their lifespan.

  Thank you very much for the useful info.

 
  Trifoliate has fruits that ripe very soon before the winter comes, so I had a thought that it would some what induce the scionwood to fruit and ripe earllier in the season. For example, Thomasville Citrangequat flowers in late March, and fruits ripe from November to March. If graft this on trifoliate, I am not sure whether or not it will induce the fruits to ripe a bit sooner than when Thomasville Citrangequat is on its own root.

Bomand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
    • LouisianaCFDFMY
    • View Profile
I find that this will not really make any difference or the changes will be so minute that the average fellow will not notice them.....

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Rootstock that has a dwarfing effect (that's usually the point) induces trees to flower and fruit earlier in their lifetime, and that probably also means flowering a little earlier in the season, during the early part of their lifespan.

100% False... This is the problem with keyboard experts. Grafting a bud or cutting from a immature non producing tree will in no way make it flower sooner or earlier in the season..
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:16:55 PM by Laaz »

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
Rootstock that has a dwarfing effect (that's usually the point) induces trees to flower and fruit earlier in their lifetime, and that probably also means flowering a little earlier in the season, during the early part of their lifespan.

100% False... This is the problem with keyboard experts. Grafting a bud or cutting from a immature non producing tree will in no way make it flower sooner or earlier in the season..


  Grafting does induce early flowering and fruiting for 2 reasons. Frist, the rootstock is usually more than 1 year old and therefore matured enough to induce flowering or fruiting within 2-3 years after grafting took place. Second, there might be a slight incompatibility which shorten the grafted tree lifespan, so it forces the grafted tree to fruit early to retain the gene. I am not sure about the second assumption, but in my experience, grafted trees usually have much shorter lifespan compared to original trees.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 03:32:01 PM by lavender87 »

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Lol! Try to convince yourself of that! You have either been brainwashed or truly uninformed.

Dio said it best.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owJJQgt_jgs&pbjreload=10
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 04:21:59 PM by Laaz »

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
Lol! Try to convince yourself of that! You have either been brainwashed or truly uninformed.

  I am not sure about citrus, but I experienced myself on jujube, mango avocado... Grafting does shorten life of grafted tree and they would stop producing very early comparing to if on their own root.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 05:17:26 PM by lavender87 »

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3460
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
Lavender,  using a mature root stock is not what induces early flowering (2 or 3 years).  Rather it is using a mature scion that is grafted on to a rootstock that induces early flowering.

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
Lavender,  using a mature root stock is not what induces early flowering (2 or 3 years).  Rather it is using a mature scion that is grafted on to a rootstock that induces early flowering.

  Oh, thank for the info. I think the maturity of scionwood also affects earlier flowering. I have done experiments on jujube with 6 different varieties onto the single 6 years old wild jujube rootstock with different ranging ages of scionwood. I noticed that all of the successful grafted scionwood flowered after grafted 2 months. 2 extremely young scionwood branches dried (failed) due to immaturity (too young), and a few too old scionwood died back after broke dormancy. I was surprised that the scionwood flowered right after 2 months of grafting in Spring. Since my wild jujube rootstock is huge, I have done like 18 grafts on it at the same time, and only a few failed. Some even produced fruits as well in the Fall of the same year.
 
  I came up with a vague conclusion that as long as the grafted scionwood successed, it will flower very soon, and especially with jujube, it flowered on the same season that the graft took place. I think the vigor of the rootstock is the main reason for early flowering and fruiting.

  I will do the similar experiment on young jujube rootstock to see if they will flower like they did on the 6 year old jujube rootstock. My matured jujube tree had many root suckers around that I can dig up to do experiement with. But I do believe that the age of the scionwood does affect how soon it will flower.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 05:39:15 PM by lavender87 »

lavender87

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • USA, GA, Smyrna, 8a
    • View Profile
   By the way, I did not mean to discuss about how soon the grafted citrus on trifoliate rootstock would flower. I did not have a chance to experiment this to see whether or not the poncirus trifoliate rootstock would induce an early ripening season. (To avoid misunderstanding, I am assuming that the grafted citrus tree is old enough to produce fruits.) I would hope to accelerate the ripening time to void frozen fruits in late December.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
It's true that grafted trees have substantially shorter lifespans than trees on their on roots. However, a grafted citrus tree, even on dwarf rootstock, should still live well in excess of 20 years, so that wouldn't be a consideration unless you were thinking about the very long term (like if for some reason you wanted a gigantic tree that would still be alive and healthy 40 years from now).

Grafting on different rootstock creates some degree of incompatibility. This limits growth, and forces the tree to divert energy into fruit production. Most fruit trees in the wild don't begin fruiting for many years, since they're focusing all their energy on growth early on.

Samodelkin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
    • Simferopol 7b
    • View Profile
Thomasville Citrangequat on the rootstock of the trifoliate Matures later than on the rootstock of volkameriana

lebmung

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b (inside city 8a)
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
   By the way, I did not mean to discuss about how soon the grafted citrus on trifoliate rootstock would flower. I did not have a chance to experiment this to see whether or not the poncirus trifoliate rootstock would induce an early ripening season. (To avoid misunderstanding, I am assuming that the grafted citrus tree is old enough to produce fruits.) I would hope to accelerate the ripening time to void frozen fruits in late December.

You can use a ethylene and a high K fertilizer get those to get those fruits earlier.

lebmung

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b (inside city 8a)
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Flying dragon rootstock does induce earlier fruit set and better fruits, but not specific to season. However not so productive and slow growing. The way it works it's because of the graft incompatibility which makes the scion dwarf. The sap flow from leaves to roots is disturbed and low so more carbohydrates stay in the upper part of the plant, more available to fruits. This way the roots don't grow too much because of this incomplete graft union.

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Flying dragon also causes severe benching which is why I no longer use it.

lebmung

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b (inside city 8a)
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Flying dragon also causes severe benching which is why I no longer use it.

And sensitive to hard water and calcareous soil.

Walt

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
    • USA, Kansas, Kanopolis, zone 6
    • View Profile
As I have said before, I know and have much more experience with apples than citrus.  But one way grafting speeds bloom in appples is if the root is older and well established, it will make the scion grow faster so it is big sooner, and bearing sooner.  Seems  like it might do the same with citrus,  Otherwise, grafting has little effect on speed of flowering.

Millet

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3460
    • Colorado
    • View Profile
I have a lot of trees grafted on Flying Dragon. I like the rootstock for its ability to keep trees shorter, as I grow in ground trees inside a large greenhouse.  As Laaz wrote, flying dragon's bud union typically does show considerable shoulder development, which sometimes can lead to compression  girdling.  Most mandarins perform extremely well for at least 15 years, but eventually develop bud union crease and decline.  Overall it is an excellent rootstock where it is well adapted. Disease resistance make it a good choice for replant situations. It is well adapted to loam, sandy loam, and clay soils. Can also perform well on sandy soils, but only if irrigation is managed carefully because roots are shallow and therefore trees on trifoliate are quite susceptible to drought. Flying Dragon's internal fruit quality is good to excellent with all common scions.  Fruit typically have high solids, acids and juice content. There are numerous root stocks, but not one that is fully suitable for every situation that a tree could  find itself growing in.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 12:06:56 PM by Millet »

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers