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Author Topic: Mangifera Indica is a myth  (Read 513 times)

Future

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Mangifera Indica is a myth
« on: July 11, 2019, 10:43:35 AM »
Another of many threads from recent conversation with Dr Campbell: He has a theory that what we call m. Indica is actually just descendant of wild Borneo mangoes.  I am paraphrasing but he indicated he will probably do a paper at some point which details what we think of as India vs. SE Asian mango as actually having common origin in Borneo.  If true, this would shatter common wisdom that India is mango’s birthplace.

Incidentally, he has several wild mangoes growing in his front yard. One was found within six feet of the ocean, essentially growing in sand and must have its feet in salt water...

pineislander

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 05:02:49 PM »
DNA should tell the truth as it does for citrus. Until that gets done theories are only hypotheses.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25447

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 08:38:10 PM »
Fossils study are better than DNA tests for this since it provides much more older informations. And the oldest mango fossil comes from northern India.Now compare that with the fossils of Borneo mangoes .https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237346625_A_palaeogene_Mangifera_-_Like_leaf_fossil_from_India
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 08:40:04 PM by SeaWalnut »

pineislander

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 08:53:18 PM »
Fossils study are better than DNA tests for this since it provides much more older informations. And the oldest mango fossil comes from northern India.Now compare that with the fossils of Borneo mangoes .https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237346625_A_palaeogene_Mangifera_-_Like_leaf_fossil_from_India
I think fossils might be good if you could find them all. But trying to track down a lineage when the gravestones have been covered up is far harder than looking at the genes themselves which were carried down the family line and are present and ready at hand. They did use fossil citrus but genes leave traces you can track back easily.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 09:15:20 PM »
Fossils study are better than DNA tests for this since it provides much more older informations. And the oldest mango fossil comes from northern India.Now compare that with the fossils of Borneo mangoes .https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237346625_A_palaeogene_Mangifera_-_Like_leaf_fossil_from_India
I think fossils might be good if you could find them all. But trying to track down a lineage when the gravestones have been covered up is far harder than looking at the genes themselves which were carried down the family line and are present and ready at hand. They did use fossil citrus but genes leave traces you can track back easily.
Your right about the scarcity of fossils and DNA tests are good but only until a fossil shows up and that beats all the DNA tests.
DNA is usefull to prove where the comercial,domesticated form of fruit originates.Like in the case of walnut ,J Regia,DNA says 90 percent of the genes comes from the Carpathians Mountains wich its not unexpected since walnut means walachian nut and Valahia is The Romanian country in older language.
But Iranians call it Persian walnut and clain to be their own wich might be true and it most likely originates from asia regardless of what the DNA tests say.
English call it English Walnut wich is funny because it means english romanian nut.
One thing is certain,that all life forms on this planet except humans dont care about borders,nationalityes ,etc.Mango could have even originated in Siberia .

Pademelon1

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 09:30:09 PM »
It's best to use a combination of both fossils and DNA, because DNA is very useful in getting a distinct picture of the way the genes have travelled, (for instance look at the history of Castanospermum australe in Australia), but can get murky if there has been a lot of travel and mixing, and wild related populations are gone. In this case, fossils provide a useful platform which can be used with the DNA to show the place of origin by tracing gene age with fossil age to gain the travel direction of the domesticated plant.

Anyhow, the species epithet 'Indica' has been applied to many species not originally from India, such as Canna indica, Opuntia ficus-indica and Tamarindus indica, so even if it isn't from India, it doesn't mean the name is incorrect.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:11:04 AM by Pademelon1 »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 12:29:01 AM »
Here is a link about Mangifera Takashimensis from Japan 35N.The bad thing about fossils is that they cant be tested for DNA because its broken by age.https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/37995193

Guanabanus

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 05:59:48 PM »
Fascinating.
Har

ben mango

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 11:09:07 PM »
really not that surprising. how many mangifera species are native to borneo , then how many are native to india? pretty sure borneo wins

Future

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Re: Mangifera Indica is a myth
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 01:27:21 PM »
really not that surprising. how many mangifera species are native to borneo , then how many are native to india? pretty sure borneo wins

That Asian and Indian mangoes have common origin makes sense.  Up until now I figured Asia was an offshoot of India.  But the high level logic you point out, all to be scientifically proven / detailed later, a pre-India common origin makes sense.  It will be interesting to see which Borneo relative they supposedly descend from.

 

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