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Author Topic: What causes a "bad year for mangoes"? Mango trees never even flowered here.  (Read 3471 times)

simon_grow

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Oscar, good point about the stresses other than cold that can induce blooms.

Simon

johnb51

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I got a fair amount of mangoes, but quite a few went bad during the ripening process. Got a lot of rain in early June, before the fruit were fully ripe, and that may have had something to do with it.
Angie, Fairchild, Pickering, Providence and Honey Kiss were good producers. Mahachanok was moderate. Mallika was poor. Cogshall and NDM were the worst: produced fruit that almost all went bad. They're on my hit list now. The NDM will have a Pickering grafted on to its trunk when a friend has the time to do so. Haven't decided what to graft on to Cogshall - Providence is the top contender for now.
Your experience with and confidence in the Providence mango is interesting in light of its supposed vulnerability to MBBS and the general abandonment of that variety in this area.  Obviously it's doing well for you, and you like it enough to want to topwork another tree to it.  My tree hasn't produced yet, but I guess the best course of action is to wait and see if it produces healthy fruit.
John

strkpr00

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Here is my take on the weak season, the good cold front in Dec. set us up, warm January, then several cool mornings in at 52/58 in Feb and March. I think the Hot Jan. and the cool Feb. and March threw the trees out of sync. I grow orchids as a hobby(north of 400) and always keep an eye the winter temps.

BajaJohn

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This year was the best and strangest in the last 5 years for my mangoes. Last winter seemed very mild. I wondered if lack of cold hours would adversely affect my lychee, but the small sapling produced 7 fruits compared to last year's one. The mangoes started early. I was eating a local (Criollo) variety from one of my tree in mid-May. Best tasting and juiciest they have ever been and the tree was producing new flowers at the same time. There was a lull in early June when I didn't get any ripe fruit then all the trees started producing outstanding quality fruit. Friends and neighbors have also commented on the outstanding year for mangoes in the area (Eastern side of Baja Sur). It has also been a long season with loads of fruit still on the trees. There was a little rain in the fall but the winter was dry although I irrigate my trees. Last year wasn't too good for me, but I've not noticed a biennial trend over other years.

fruitlovers

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Whether mangoes "need" chill hours or not, sudden cool temps are associated with flowering. Certainly appears to be true here in FL. In areas that stay warm year round, dry spells and other triggers are involved in flowering.
In a warm but very dry winter you will understand what i'm saying, because you should get very good flowering and fruit set.
There are many ways to stress plants, including artificial ways like growth hormones and potassium nitrate. Thesw eill aslo help flowering. But you wouldn't say they are necessary for mangos to fruit.
Oscar

zands

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Chill hours???  ???  Mangos are tropical and don't need chill hours. Do you really think they would fruit in Myanmar and southern India, where they are native, if they needed chill hours?
There was a crazy bumper crop this year here in Kona and in Maui, zero chill hours also.

Chill hours? You got volcano emissions hours to worry about. But the next big toxic burp is 24 years away.

fruitlovers

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Chill hours???  ???  Mangos are tropical and don't need chill hours. Do you really think they would fruit in Myanmar and southern India, where they are native, if they needed chill hours?
There was a crazy bumper crop this year here in Kona and in Maui, zero chill hours also.

Chill hours? You got volcano emissions hours to worry about. But the next big toxic burp is 24 years away.
Gas emissions from volcano also can stress plants. Unfortunately not a type of stress that makes them fruit, on the contrary. Good news is that there is almost zero emissions now, and probably for many years, maybe decades?, ahead.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 11:24:49 PM by fruitlovers »
Oscar

StPeteMango

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I got a fair amount of mangoes, but quite a few went bad during the ripening process. Got a lot of rain in early June, before the fruit were fully ripe, and that may have had something to do with it.
Angie, Fairchild, Pickering, Providence and Honey Kiss were good producers. Mahachanok was moderate. Mallika was poor. Cogshall and NDM were the worst: produced fruit that almost all went bad. They're on my hit list now. The NDM will have a Pickering grafted on to its trunk when a friend has the time to do so. Haven't decided what to graft on to Cogshall - Providence is the top contender for now.
Your experience with and confidence in the Providence mango is interesting in light of its supposed vulnerability to MBBS and the general abandonment of that variety in this area.  Obviously it's doing well for you, and you like it enough to want to topwork another tree to it.  My tree hasn't produced yet, but I guess the best course of action is to wait and see if it produces healthy fruit.

How old is your Providence? I planted mine in Jan. 2015, and it fruited for the first time (about 25 mangoes) in 2018, and again this year (around 40). The mangoes are large, but better than that, the taste is to my liking. A bit scruffy this year, with black spots on the skin, but taste was excellent. I'm no connoisseur; I like my Pickering, Providence, Angie, Fairchild and Honey Kiss. The MC isn't bad, but it's quite vigorous and so more work than I need to keep it at a reasonable size.

Future

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Whether mangoes "need" chill hours or not, sudden cool temps are associated with flowering. Certainly appears to be true here in FL. In areas that stay warm year round, dry spells and other triggers are involved in flowering.
In a warm but very dry winter you will understand what i'm saying, because you should get very good flowering and fruit set.
There are many ways to stress plants, including artificial ways like growth hormones and potassium nitrate. Thesw eill aslo help flowering. But you wouldn't say they are necessary for mangos to fruit.

A cool but not too cool spell or a dry spell or both (even better) are the strongest natural bloom inducers for mango.  Itís not accurate to refer to their native land and conclude dryness is any more or less relevant than a cool period. And we should also remember, different varieties respond very differently. Some flower without either chill hours or dry periods.  Some varieties in Brazil, Hawaii and south Florida have never flowered in 30 years, even surrounded by other varieties that do.

Also, adaption to cooler climates is probably an overstatement.  Selection, maybe. But adaption would take much longer.

Stick to your guns Simon. The science is well studied.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 06:35:46 PM by Future »

Tropicdude

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Cool weather at the right time definitely helps trigger flowering,   but lest not forget that many Florida mango varieties are grown in the tropics, where they do not get even one night below 65F  and they can produce fruit without any problem.

some varieties require more stress than others to trigger flowering.  water seems to be the biggest contributing factor in the DR,  dry winters = more fruit,  no cold involved.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 11:31:09 PM by Tropicdude »
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

fruitlovers

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I've never said that cold temperatures can't stress mango into flowering. What i said is that cold temperatures are not absolutely necessary for fruiting. And if it was then there would be no mangoes at all in the tropics. Which would be rather funny, because that is where they originate. You will never find anywhere cold chill ratings for mangoes for that reason. Cold chill ratings are for temperate fruits only.
Oscar

clannewton

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I also had a poor year for harvesting mangoes but I can identify the cause for my area. In Brevard county when all of my trees had a mixture of flowers and small bb's/fruit set, we had a freak hail storm that knocked off the majority of flowers and fruit.  Then to add on to this insult, two days later we had a wind squall that blew in our area with speeds in excess of 60 mph.  It was strong enough to snap the top of a large mature oak tree on my property. Needless to say, just about all that was left of my future fruit was on the ground and I probably harvested less than 10% of what I have had in prior years.  The squirrels also seemed to be more of a nuisance competing for what was left.

Guanabanus

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Yes, it is true that several Florida varieties of mango fruit very well in northeastern Brazil, which is semi-arid.  But it is not true when those same varieties are taken to northern Brazil, Amazonia, where the dry season is usually 3-6 weeks, and the annual low temperature is around 68-degrees F.

There are several, long-cultivated-in-the-Amazon-region polyembrionic varieties of mango, which produce heavily every year;  however, of the dozen or so varieties introduced from Florida to the Amazon in the 1970's and since, only the Nam Doc Mai has fruited.   The others went decades without even flowering.  [Some apparently did eventually, flower.  I am guessing that that occurred in years of extreme drought or lots of smoke.  No fruits were reported.]

So I do speak of some mango varieties as being truly tropical, and of most mango varieties as being sub-tropical. [Definitions of "sub-tropical" are all over the place, per some, even including Washington, D.C.  Per me, "Some freezes or frosts recorded, but not every year."]

I realize that drought-stress can be an alternative stimulus to flowering, but here in Florida, where we get considerable dry weather, including tree-wilting droughts in the middle of what is supposed to be rainy season--- and we don't get late summer blooms from that--- we in the trade, believe that the timing of the start of the next mango season is determined by the timing of the first several nights of weather in the fifties F. 

Here in in the "coastal strip" in southeastern Florida, the first cool snap may occur in mid-October, in which case the very early varieties will have ripe fruits in late March or early April.  If the first cool snap is in mid-December, the season will start near the end of May.
Har

Future

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I've never said that cold temperatures can't stress mango into flowering. What i said is that cold temperatures are not absolutely necessary for fruiting. And if it was then there would be no mangoes at all in the tropics. Which would be rather funny, because that is where they originate. You will never find anywhere cold chill ratings for mangoes for that reason. Cold chill ratings are for temperate fruits only.


Your comments are accurate. However to be fair to Simon we must note they they are also incomplete.  Simonís statement surmised as to why flowering didnít occur and within the growerís context, now underpinned by Har and otherís observations, itís clear some varieties in some growing areas either rely on moderate chilling hours or have no or rare flowering.  Simon didnít say chilling period was absolutely necessary.


Chill.

fruitlovers

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I've never said that cold temperatures can't stress mango into flowering. What i said is that cold temperatures are not absolutely necessary for fruiting. And if it was then there would be no mangoes at all in the tropics. Which would be rather funny, because that is where they originate. You will never find anywhere cold chill ratings for mangoes for that reason. Cold chill ratings are for temperate fruits only.


Your comments are accurate. However to be fair to Simon we must note they they are also incomplete.  Simonís statement surmised as to why flowering didnít occur and within the growerís context, now underpinned by Har and otherís observations, itís clear some varieties in some growing areas either rely on moderate chilling hours or have no or rare flowering.  Simon didnít say chilling period was absolutely necessary.


Chill.
The problem is in the use of the term "chilling hours" instead of "stress". I don't see any scientific paper with ratings anywhere for what mango cultivars need chilling hours, and the amount of hours they need? If there is such literature, then please let me know.
Oscar

Future

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I've never said that cold temperatures can't stress mango into flowering. What i said is that cold temperatures are not absolutely necessary for fruiting. And if it was then there would be no mangoes at all in the tropics. Which would be rather funny, because that is where they originate. You will never find anywhere cold chill ratings for mangoes for that reason. Cold chill ratings are for temperate fruits only.


Your comments are accurate. However to be fair to Simon we must note they they are also incomplete.  Simonís statement surmised as to why flowering didnít occur and within the growerís context, now underpinned by Har and otherís observations, itís clear some varieties in some growing areas either rely on moderate chilling hours or have no or rare flowering.  Simon didnít say chilling period was absolutely necessary.


Chill.
The problem is in the use of the term "chilling hours" instead of "stress". I don't see any scientific paper with ratings anywhere for what mango cultivars need chilling hours, and the amount of hours they need? If there is such literature, then please let me know.

I hear you man. Itís a good thing mango trees donít await scientific literature to determine behavior.

simon_grow

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Haha, my brain isnít what it used to be. I used the words ďchilling hoursĒ because I felt readers could relate to this term better because chilling hours is often used when discussing stone fruit and itís need for a specific chilling period to set good fruit. I felt that most reader would understand what I was talking about.

I further explained saying ďat the appropriate temperature for an appropriate amount of timeĒ to let readers know that I did not have the exact data for Mangos.

Hopefully the growers that didnít get enough chilling stress this year will get enough next year for a bountiful harvest.

Simon

Future

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Dr. Jonathan Crane makes delivered a great presentation this summer that touched on mango flower induction.



"This dormancy may be induced by cool temperatures (<~59oF) and/or
dry soil conditions.
ē In subtropical areas temperatures play a major role and in tropical areas, drought
(dry period) plays a major role."

Guanabanus

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Nice!
Har

fruitlovers

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Dr. Jonathan Crane makes delivered a great presentation this summer that touched on mango flower induction.



"This dormancy may be induced by cool temperatures (<~59oF) and/or
dry soil conditions.
ē In subtropical areas temperatures play a major role and in tropical areas, drought
(dry period) plays a major role."
No issue with anything Dr. Crane says. Notice he doesn't say mangoes need "chill hours"? He's only talking about stressing plants and says quite clearly that dry and/or cool temperatures can work.
Oscar

yuzr

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Ok, got it, different varieties, countries, etc, etc.
Now, some bulk-of-the-bell-shaped curve generalities please.

Mature tree in FL zone 9b near 9a fruited for first time last summer.
It is Jan 2020. Flowers on two branches as of three weeks ago.  Two weeks of same pleasant weather passed without any more flowers.  Because I do not know what is common flowering behavior, I was surprised by no more flowers.
How does flowering go usually?

(The recent very cold weather came later;  flowers same.) 

Guanabanus

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Look for more branches to flower, now that they have accumulated more... stress.
Har

yuzr

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Re: What causes a "bad year for mangoes"? Mango trees never even flowered here.
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2020, 08:22:53 PM »
I looked and looked since then (Jan 23);  no more flowers.

Fruits on those two branches.

 

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