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Author Topic: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood  (Read 481 times)

Goyo626

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Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« on: July 20, 2019, 10:49:59 AM »
Is there any successful grafting technique used when the rootstock has a  smaller diameter than the budwood?

Tried searching the forum but couldnt find anything.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 10:52:44 AM by Goyo626 »

Orkine

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2019, 12:11:10 PM »
I have done a few of this using modified/side cleft or veneer.
Your cut on the larger scion will be off center, in some cases, just deep enough to expose cambium layer.
Depending on the difference in size and how well I think I can align the cambium, I may sland the scion very slightly to make sure it touches at least in a couple of points.  Then I pray :)

PS. you should plan to stake the graft so the weight of the scion does not break you rootstock.

There is a video on you tube on stone grafting mango.  It shows a pro grafting large scions onto emergent mango with leaves that have not even hardened yet.

see below
https://youtu.be/YC9ICv9LMlQ

If you use a cleft like in the video, I suggest you have your cleft deeper than the cut in your scion by a little so the rootstock on each side of the wedge crosses the arch at the top of your wedge cut on the scion.  It gives you one more potential site for cambium contact.

Look at the minute mark to 1:10 mark of the video below, the scion is not centered and the rootstock appear longer than the cut on the scion.  So in addition to trying to line up the cambium on one side you have an extra shot at the top of your wedge cut.
https://youtu.be/1k3F-cNRcIk

There is only one caution, if you untie too quickly, as that extra flap on each side dry, it may try to peel away.  I have not seen it do any harm but when I unwrap a union with this flap I often use the removed tape to keep flap tied until it completely dries up and I can snip it off.

good luck
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 12:29:18 PM by Orkine »

Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 01:11:31 PM »
Thanks. Can a similar method be applied to older rootstock? Im trying to create a cocktail tree for fun. The mango is a manila seedling from home depot with 4 nice scaffolds. 2 of the scaffolds are pencil thick and the other two are noticeably thinner.

Orkine

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2019, 06:34:35 PM »
Yes, you can do the same thing on a seedling or a mature tree with a thin branch. 
I might have an old photo somewhere of a big scion on a thin branch.  After wrapping I tied a splint to make sure the wind didn't break my graft, it was top heavy and I needed it rigid until the graft too.  It did well.

Take pictures and share if you make the graft.

Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2019, 07:40:35 PM »
Thanks. The cleft graft has been my go to graft with all deciduous trees but for some reason i have only had 1 successful cleft graft with mangoes. Side cleft grafts i have had better success. Having a hard time picturing an off center cut on the scion. Does that mean that the V shaped cut will lopsided with a shallower cut on the side that fuse with the rootstock?

simon_grow

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2019, 04:35:25 PM »
You may also want to consider bud grafting. It is a more difficult graft with a much lower success rate, for me at least, but you can use pretty small rootstocks.

Another thing you can do is to graft one scion onto two branches, similar to double rootstock grafting.

Simon

Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 05:03:18 PM »
You may also want to consider bud grafting. It is a more difficult graft with a much lower success rate, for me at least, but you can use pretty small rootstocks.

Another thing you can do is to graft one scion onto two branches, similar to double rootstock grafting.

Simon

I was considering bud grafting but i ve only had one successful bud graft (inverted T) on citrus. My knife skills leave something to be desired. If the budwood is too big i might have to go this route. Thanks.

Orkine

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2019, 12:05:51 AM »
Not exactly, with a side cleft you don't have an even wedge anyway.  There is the side that is joined to your mail rootstock which is longer and cut to match the cut on the rootstock.  Then there is the other side, usually shorter which the flap covers.
With a thin rootstock, the part that joins to the rootstock is almost like a veneer cut, really thin, just enough to expose the cambium no wider than your rootstock.  The back side is a steeper cut that goes all the way across your scion.

I will look for a picture online or do a throwaway graft in the next few days and take some pictures.


Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2019, 12:32:27 AM »
Not exactly, with a side cleft you don't have an even wedge anyway.  There is the side that is joined to your mail rootstock which is longer and cut to match the cut on the rootstock.  Then there is the other side, usually shorter which the flap covers.
With a thin rootstock, the part that joins to the rootstock is almost like a veneer cut, really thin, just enough to expose the cambium no wider than your rootstock.  The back side is a steeper cut that goes all the way across your scion.

I will look for a picture online or do a throwaway graft in the next few days and take some pictures.

Thanks. Pics would be helpful.

sapote

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2019, 02:58:46 PM »
Thanks. Can a similar method be applied to older rootstock? Im trying to create a cocktail tree for fun. The mango is a manila seedling from home depot with 4 nice scaffolds. 2 of the scaffolds are pencil thick and the other two are noticeably thinner.

The rootstock seems not ready yet. Had it flowered yet? If not wait until flowered then graft. Grafting too early and the tree will be very slow growing.

Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2019, 05:11:45 PM »
Thanks. Can a similar method be applied to older rootstock? Im trying to create a cocktail tree for fun. The mango is a manila seedling from home depot with 4 nice scaffolds. 2 of the scaffolds are pencil thick and the other two are noticeably thinner.

The rootstock seems not ready yet. Had it flowered yet? If not wait until flowered then graft. Grafting too early and the tree will be very slow growing.

Its a hd manila seedling i got to make a cocktail tree for fun.

sapote

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2019, 05:21:17 PM »
it will give fruits sooner and more if wait until flowered -- rootstock is ready when trunk is 2" or more.

Orkine

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 06:24:33 PM »
I did a throwaway graft so I could take some pictures.
Its a variety I wont keep on this tree even if it takes and I did not wrap the scion.  With the disclaimers out of the way, this is what I was trying to explain.

First the root stock is a mature tree that happens to have some CAC branches with thin but hardened shoot.  In this case it is hardened and stiff enough that I did not need a splint.  Your seedling may not be in that situation.

I took a branch, not prepped from a tree I was going to cut back (2nd year of a 3 year topwork exercise removing a third of the canopy each year)

The first two pictures below is how I made the cuts on the scion.
Notice one side flat, almost like a veneer graft and the other deep.  The flat side is about the width of the shoot on the root stock.



Next is the cut I made on the rootstock shoot.  Almost to the halfway point to get as much width as possible.  Note if this fails, I have lots of branches.  Were this my only site, I would cut only to about a third of the diameter.



The next two show the scion next to the shoot.  Notice the cut on the flat side is about the same as the width of the shoot and the cut on the slanted side is much wider bt not as long.



A quick test fitting and a little wrap to hold it in place long enough to take a shot.  Notice it stays in by itself, no support.  The scion is clearly wider as you can see.
Note the 3rd and 4th images, they show the slanted side and while I pushed the flap to one side as much as I could I am not counting on cambium contact along the edge but if you notice, I cut the flap long enough that it crosses the arc at the top so there is a chance, however remote that I may get contact on this side of the scion.  The other side, the flat side though is what I am banking on.  It is a close match and the chances of cambium contact is higher.

 

Wrapped up and a clothespin to secure in place.



Were this a graft I really wanted, the scion will be prepped and will be wrapped to prevent moisture loss.  In this case I will just place a bag over it.

You take a shot and share your pictures. Worst case you will have two high likelihood on your pencil thich shoots and two fair shots on the thinner shoots. 
One more thing, I did not remove the tip of the shoot.  In a graft I want I will but will leave some leafs on, jut remove the terminal bud and a couple of leaves.

One last thing, I saw Adam (Flying Fox Fruit) do this thing where he makes a little H with buddy tape and uses it to seal the gap between the scion and rootstock to minimize moisture going into the graft (see 6:40 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIx-kvKykec&t=756s).  I often will do that with these side clefts.  I don't know if it helps or not but I liked the idea and adopted it.

Goyo626

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2019, 07:15:50 PM »
I did a throwaway graft so I could take some pictures.
Its a variety I wont keep on this tree even if it takes and I did not wrap the scion.  With the disclaimers out of the way, this is what I was trying to explain.

First the root stock is a mature tree that happens to have some CAC branches with thin but hardened shoot.  In this case it is hardened and stiff enough that I did not need a splint.  Your seedling may not be in that situation.

I took a branch, not prepped from a tree I was going to cut back (2nd year of a 3 year topwork exercise removing a third of the canopy each year)

The first two pictures below is how I made the cuts on the scion.
Notice one side flat, almost like a veneer graft and the other deep.  The flat side is about the width of the shoot on the root stock.



Next is the cut I made on the rootstock shoot.  Almost to the halfway point to get as much width as possible.  Note if this fails, I have lots of branches.  Were this my only site, I would cut only to about a third of the diameter.



The next two show the scion next to the shoot.  Notice the cut on the flat side is about the same as the width of the shoot and the cut on the slanted side is much wider bt not as long.



A quick test fitting and a little wrap to hold it in place long enough to take a shot.  Notice it stays in by itself, no support.  The scion is clearly wider as you can see.
Note the 3rd and 4th images, they show the slanted side and while I pushed the flap to one side as much as I could I am not counting on cambium contact along the edge but if you notice, I cut the flap long enough that it crosses the arc at the top so there is a chance, however remote that I may get contact on this side of the scion.  The other side, the flat side though is what I am banking on.  It is a close match and the chances of cambium contact is higher.

 

Wrapped up and a clothespin to secure in place.



Were this a graft I really wanted, the scion will be prepped and will be wrapped to prevent moisture loss.  In this case I will just place a bag over it.

You take a shot and share your pictures. Worst case you will have two high likelihood on your pencil thich shoots and two fair shots on the thinner shoots. 
One more thing, I did not remove the tip of the shoot.  In a graft I want I will but will leave some leafs on, jut remove the terminal bud and a couple of leaves.

One last thing, I saw Adam (Flying Fox Fruit) do this thing where he makes a little H with buddy tape and uses it to seal the gap between the scion and rootstock to minimize moisture going into the graft (see 6:40 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIx-kvKykec&t=756s).  I often will do that with these side clefts.  I don't know if it helps or not but I liked the idea and adopted it.

Got a massive heatwave coming so ill probably wait a week or two.  But thanks for clearing it up i have a much better understanding on how to do it. What kind of success do you get with this type of graft?


Orkine

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Re: Thinner Mango Rootstock than budwood
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2019, 09:10:35 PM »
I am sure it is less than with well matched scion/rootstock but I haven't really kept track.

I don't do it a lot.  I usually have suitable rootstock that match the scion.
I have probably done only about 8+/- in this direction in 3 years and about 40 or so with scions thinner than the rootstock in the same period.  Most cases thought I am able to match thickness.




 

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