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Author Topic: Nitrogen Fixers  (Read 1243 times)

Mango_Seed

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2019, 06:58:46 PM »
I bought Red Ripper Cowpea as a nitrogen fixer, but the iguana eat them as fast as I can plant it. Now I buy raw peanuts as a ground cover / nitrogen fixer and use the red ripper cowpeas as bait for my traps.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 07:03:53 PM by Mango_Seed »

Acacia

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2019, 03:46:08 AM »
A lot of people here are actually crazy religious about native only plants. They will poison anything that is not native to a region. The brazillian pepper tree is a pioneer species. It's berries are liked by birds and mammals. It creates thickets in disturbed sites. The birds come in a eat the berries, they spread the seed of other trees. Some of those seeds will be overstory species that could live for hundreds of years, they eventually grow and overtake the brazilian pepper trees that only live for a short time.

I also don't like thickets of a single species but I think people are a little crazy about preserving how things used to be when nature is changing and adapting all the time. I think most introduced plants have a positive impact on the natural system long term but I won't deny some have a negative impact. The African Tulip tree that grows everywhere around here has flowers that poison the native bees.


I will have to check that out,  a lot of people preach about "The New Wild.  " There are a lot of people that get weird almost religious when they start talking about how invasives are like some misunderstood salvation.   I will also say,  on the other side,  there are a lot of minimally impactful invasives that people yell about which just arent in the same league as some of the ones you named like Brazilian Pepper and Melaleuca.

Personally,  I would rather see a native hardwood hammock with all the diversity of native plants and animals than a forest of Brazilian pepper.   Sure,  bees will make use of Brazilian pepper,  but if you think those support a biodiverse ecosystem,  well,  thats just plain silly.


FloridaFruitGeek

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2019, 09:22:27 AM »
Here in North Florida, the best nitrogen fixing tree I've found for interplanting among fruit trees is Enterolobium contortisiliquum. Seedlings are already nodulating at six weeks old. Planted out in our sandy soil, they grow extremely rapidly, with a spreading form. If allowed to grow untrimmed, in ten years the trunk is often so big I can't reach my arms around it.
Their tissues are so full of nitrogen that sometimes when you break open a fallen stick from them, the inside of the stick reeks of ammonia.
In their first few years, these Enterolobium trees cast a light shade which can be helpful for getting some kinds of young fruit trees established (as these N-fixers get bigger they cast denser shade). They're easy to coppice or pollard - if at any point you decide they're getting too big or casting too much shade, just cut them back with a chainsaw.  They'll throw out sprouts from the cut point, and you can then cut those sprouts back annually to maintain them fixing nitrogen without excessively shading your fruit trees.
They make lots of pods here, but I only rarely see seedlings pop up on their own. Scarifying seeds is helpful for germinating them, and the rarity of spontaneous seedlings maybe results from the absence of large animals here eating the pods & scarifying the seeds.

During colder winters here, they freeze back partially, then in spring they sprout out from wherever they froze back to. I've seen trees take 15F(-9C), which killed them back to major limbs, but not all the way to the ground. In areas with colder winters, presumably they would freeze to the ground every winter as a dieback perennial.

Pokeweed

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2019, 09:47:36 AM »
  Really useful information as always!
  We planted peanuts as well and they reseeded themselves for several years. I think they "nitrogened" themselves out. Enterolobuim.... Another one I'll have to try. Awesome!
  With all of the non native plants and trees that I have introduced to our place I wonder sometimes if any of them will become invasive over time. The state maintains a list of invasives, but I haven't seen the ones I've brought in on it. Some may not have had a chance to become invasive here before. Several of the fabaceae etc. Like exactly the climate we have (think Australia). Right now my place is overrun with mesquite. We keep about 1/4 of our place mowed down in pasture and senderos cut through at intervals and along fence lines. I'm not sure adding another prosopsis, acacia etc into the mix would really matter. Most of my neighbors use a ton of herbicide to control mesquite. I don't use that stuff. Makes the manure and silage poisonous as well. I have about 500 cubic feet of old cow manure that I would love to use, but it was there when we bought the place and I'm sure has herbicide in it. I'm concerned about what it will eventually do to the ground water.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2019, 10:56:56 AM »
As decorative plants i have a few trumpet vines,Campsis Radicans  and mimosa tree ,Albizzia Julibrissin.Both plants verry cold hardy nitrogen fixers that bloom all summer long with beautifull flowers.

greenman62

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2019, 02:10:18 PM »

certain fungi can remediate herbicides.
https://www.permaculture.co.uk/readers-solutions/using-fungi-clean-pollutants

you could call Paul Stamets company (fungi.com) and tell them the issue...
they might have a suggestion or 2 for you



  Really useful information as always!
  We planted peanuts as well and they reseeded themselves for several years. I think they "nitrogened" themselves out. Enterolobuim.... Another one I'll have to try. Awesome!
  With all of the non native plants and trees that I have introduced to our place I wonder sometimes if any of them will become invasive over time. The state maintains a list of invasives, but I haven't seen the ones I've brought in on it. Some may not have had a chance to become invasive here before. Several of the fabaceae etc. Like exactly the climate we have (think Australia). Right now my place is overrun with mesquite. We keep about 1/4 of our place mowed down in pasture and senderos cut through at intervals and along fence lines. I'm not sure adding another prosopsis, acacia etc into the mix would really matter. Most of my neighbors use a ton of herbicide to control mesquite. I don't use that stuff. Makes the manure and silage poisonous as well. I have about 500 cubic feet of old cow manure that I would love to use, but it was there when we bought the place and I'm sure has herbicide in it. I'm concerned about what it will eventually do to the ground water.

monkeyfish

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2019, 07:15:56 PM »
One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2019, 10:49:00 PM »
About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for  the  scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.






Acacia

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2019, 01:06:52 AM »
Mokeyfish Moringa does not fix nitrogen

One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.

Acacia

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2019, 01:14:04 AM »
Casuarina (Australian pine) and other members of Casuarinaceae are known to fix nitrogen although i'm not sure how well the coppice and some are thought to have allelopathic effects although i'm not sure how to true that is. Some species do make good wood also.

Rex Begonias

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2019, 08:20:33 AM »
Coin vine (Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum)  is definitey not the same thing as the trees in those pictures.   Im confused,  you said youve read it can grow to be a tree?   Ive seen it on the marsh edges of coastal hammocks and on the dunes,  but the growth form is more of a falling/sprawling shrub/vine.   I have never seen any consistent upright growth on these,  though possibly someone could try their hand at staking and treeing it up,  I would be curious how well that works.

About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for  the  scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.







Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2019, 09:25:09 AM »
Bacteria in the soil.  Providing the right habitat/environment for nitrogen fixing bacteria to thrive.  By adding small amounts of diverse organic matter and growing out a tall biodiverse living orchard floor will adjust the soil ph and promote clover and nitrogen scavenging herbs like Caesar Weed to grow.  Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSIatGOXRs
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:35:37 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2019, 10:40:06 AM »
Coin vine (Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum)  is definitey not the same thing as the trees in those pictures.   Im confused,  you said youve read it can grow to be a tree?   Ive seen it on the marsh edges of coastal hammocks and on the dunes,  but the growth form is more of a falling/sprawling shrub/vine.   I have never seen any consistent upright growth on these,  though possibly someone could try their hand at staking and treeing it up,  I would be curious how well that works.

About the coin vine from Florida( Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum),it was discovered that the expensive red propolis from Brasil its made from these trees wich grow there also.It has a blood red sap similar to that of Pterocarpus ,wich bees collect to make the propolis.
Studyes shown that this red propolis from the coin vine kills cancerous cells.But the red propolis its too complex for  the  scientists to understand how it does that and thats why its not officially registered as a med.
A few pictures with Pterocarpus sap and the first one with the bees,its the coin vine,Dalbergia Ecastaphyllum.






Only the first picture with the bees its D Ecastaphyllum.The big trees are Pterocarpus .
D Ecastaphyllum can grow as a single stemmed tree ,but would not get that big.Its grows as a vine,shrub or single stemmed tree as manny otther dalbergia sp.

pineislander

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2019, 04:52:21 PM »
Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.
Very interesting especially the concept of rolling down the grass and letting legumes dominate as a ground cover and mulch producer. Maybe a little dogmatic about nitrogen fixing bacteria, though. While I hope that ways can be found to grow large scale without chemicals or tillage saying that ANY chemicals will "kill or starve bacteria" just isn't factual. Millions of acres, admittedly degraded, still record very high rhizobial nitrogen fixation using, for instance, glyphosate resistant soybean and probably all manner of chemical inputs, treated seeds, etc.
Here is a story. When I first came to Florida I (paid) consulted with several people to get a head start understanding what I was facing. I knew te place had been regularly mowed and I had identified that it had, at minimum, four well known perennial grasses well established. The worst was torpedo grass. My intent was to plant fruit trees but to do so using the most environmentally friendly way. When I suggested using glyphosate at first to eliminate the grasses so that I could move on, one of the consultants told me that doing so would "kill everything". His best solution was to soak the place with high test vinegar, or keep pigs on the land for a while to eat the grass down. Knowing that conventional farmers regularly document nitrogen fixation that was about all I needed to know from that consultant.

Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2019, 05:51:26 PM »
@ Pineislander,i would have chose to use the vinegar instead of glyphosate.
Vinegar promotes bacterial blooms because its a fast usable  carbon source and its also an organic acid that chelates microelements.
Vinegar seems perfect ,because after it kills the weeds it creates a bacterial bloom wich is desirable so that the weeds get decomposed fast.
Copper is harmfuĺl but if the soil has hhmic acids ,then it gets neutralised fast .And copper sulphate doesnt kills anything,i had made a slurry of copper sulphate and soaked seeds that got mold in it.It didnt killed all the mold,just 90 percent altough the seeds were painted blue from too much copper sulphate .
Amazingly,a weak tea from Cammomile flowers killed 100 percent of the mold so now im using only Cammomille tea instead of copper sulphate.
@ Pokeweed,use the old manure with confidence ,because the humic acid from it makes somme chemical reactions that restores even the most degraded,polluted soils.

Seanny

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2019, 12:31:28 AM »
Doesn’t the bacteria bloom messes up the balance, destroys the tree roots, might not give you a net gain?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2019, 07:38:02 AM »
Doesn’t the bacteria bloom messes up the balance, destroys the tree roots, might not give you a net gain?
Bacterial bloom its exactly what these nitrogen fixing plants do and its verry similar to spraying vinegar on soil.
These plants dont spray vinegar but sugar .They release into theyr nodules a bit of sugar to feed the bacteria wich in turn it splits the N2  and give it to the plants.
Sugar and vinegar are both carbon sources wich feed bacterias.
By spraying vinegar to kill weeds ,you also cause a bacterial bloom and there are special nitrogen fixing bacterias like Azotobacter wich dont grow on plant nodules but they would be verry happy if you give them somme vinnegar.
5 degree vinegar its equivalent with water that has 5 percent sugar in it .From that you can calculate how much carbon you feed the bacteria and estimate into how much nitrogen it results.Verry little@ 1,2 mg of N from 1 litter bottle of 5 degree vinegar is released by Azotobacter but the big release of N its when the bacteria dies after the bloom.
Compared to Roundup,the vinegar has probably less effect at killing weeds and its more expensive but it also puts somme N into the soil.

Acacia

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2019, 07:59:21 AM »
Covering an area of grass with silage tarp or ex billboard vinyl material can work very well. You can also put all kinds of compost and inputs to prepare the soil at the same time. For some grasses it can be a long wait for them to properly rot down. Once the grass is dead and the tarp is removed a thick layer of mulch can replace the tarp.

Another method for less persistent grasses is to lay a thick layer of cardboard then put a growing medium like compost and soil over the top, put desired plants in then heavily mulch. 

I agree we shouldn't be dogmatic about the use of any chemicals. Context is key and the constant tillage and constant application of herbicides, fungicides and pesticides are the real issue. I have no doubt that nature goes straight back to doing what it does after an application of glyphosate.



Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.

pineislander

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2019, 08:34:19 AM »
@ Pineislander,i would have chose to use the vinegar instead of glyphosate.
You probably would have failed. Acetic acid is a contact defoliant with no residual or systemic action. Torpedo grass has a network of roots & can go down 12 inches. You would need how many thousands of gallons to saturate an acre of soil that deep. That is why it took 4 applications glyphosate , some tillage and rhizome raking there was still some left and a few criminals still poke their heads up 3 years later.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2019, 08:55:20 AM »
Of course you all know that spraying ANY copper, or copper fungicide products and using synthetic fertilizers (pollutants) will kill and starve this bacteria which will interfere with the natural cycling of nutrients which will eventually manifest into plant diseases and nutrient deficiencies like copper, zinc, etc. and pollute our drinking water.
Very interesting especially the concept of rolling down the grass and letting legumes dominate as a ground cover and mulch producer. Maybe a little dogmatic about nitrogen fixing bacteria, though. While I hope that ways can be found to grow large scale without chemicals or tillage saying that ANY chemicals will "kill or starve bacteria" just isn't factual. Millions of acres, admittedly degraded, still record very high rhizobial nitrogen fixation using, for instance, glyphosate resistant soybean and probably all manner of chemical inputs, treated seeds, etc.
Here is a story. When I first came to Florida I (paid) consulted with several people to get a head start understanding what I was facing. I knew te place had been regularly mowed and I had identified that it had, at minimum, four well known perennial grasses well established. The worst was torpedo grass. My intent was to plant fruit trees but to do so using the most environmentally friendly way. When I suggested using glyphosate at first to eliminate the grasses so that I could move on, one of the consultants told me that doing so would "kill everything". His best solution was to soak the place with high test vinegar, or keep pigs on the land for a while to eat the grass down. Knowing that conventional farmers regularly document nitrogen fixation that was about all I needed to know from that consultant.



Bottom line is that if we want to promote better ways of farming we need to understand exactly what we are talking about and not oversell. I know of more than one person in my area who tried to plant fruit trees without removing the torpedo grass first. It is growing right up to the tree trunk & they are steadily mowing and got far poorer results than I did by removing the grass and starting fresh. I can show very good nodulation on many of the legumes I have planted even though I used about 4 applications of glyphosate, some slow release fertilizers and micronutrients. This should be my last year using the chemical fertilizer. I am setting up a large scale vermicomposting system fed by homegrown biomass, and will be continuing to make fish emulsion for other minerals not available in my soil.
[/quote


Uh, i was talking about  copper killing bacteria, stick with the topic.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 10:31:18 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Mango_Seed

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2019, 11:15:16 PM »
Location: South Florida; Time: Summer; Soil: Sandy.

I planted a mix of seeds around a few mango trees a couple months ago as the rainy season was about to start. The mix was suppose to be the MILPA Garden Warm Season Mix from Green Cover Seed. The one I got had more variety and no corn seed? I added more red ripper cow peas to the mix. I did not check again until today. It looks like only two types of plants survived. A grass and the red ripper cow pea. Everything else died or was eaten. 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 11:19:48 PM by Mango_Seed »

monkeyfish

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2019, 12:01:29 AM »
Mokeyfish Moringa does not fix nitrogen

One useful tree not yet mentioned is Moringa, supplying not just nitrogen but food for humans too.





Some sources say yes, some no.

It has been suggested that because Moringa was initially classified a legume, it was then assumed it fixed nitrogen like other members of the family, but reclassified in brassica, its now assumed that the initial assumption was erroneous. I think its not as simple as that.

It has been established that Bradyrhizobium inoculation results in increased growth rates, leaf protein content and overall yield by weight, but without root nodulation. I think we don't fully understand what's happening.

Then we have this, from about 20 months ago:

"Seed-transmitted endophytic bacteria colonize all tissues of Moringa seedlings. Endophytes isolated from the Moringa seeds show positive effects on growth and potential for imparting increased disease resistance in plants. Bacillus pumilus and Pantoea agglomerans displayed growth promoting characteristics and the Klebsiella showed strong antifungal activities.  Examination of seedling roots showed presence of oxidizing intracellular bacteria as seen in many other plants where the rhizophagy cycle has been hypothesized. The rhizophagy cycle is a process whereby plants obtain nutrients from bacteria that alternate between an intracellular endophytic phase and a free-living soil phase. Bacteria acquire soil nutrients in the free-living soil phase; nutrients are extracted from bacteria oxidatively in the intracellular endophytic phase. A previous experiment suggested that 30% of the nutrients absorbed by plant roots may come from the rhizophagy cycle. It is possible that much of the enhanced protein accumulation capacity of Moringa could derive from the rhizophagy cycle and direct extraction from symbiotic
bacteria. Additional research is needed to confirm this possibility."

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_White15/publication/321484411_Endophytes_of_Moringa_oleifera_Evaluation_of_Growth_Promotional_Features/links/5a2439f40f7e9b71dd0739bf/Endophytes-of-Moringa-oleifera-Evaluation-of-Growth-Promotional-Features.pdf



In the article "Constraints And Opportunities For Cultivation Of Moringa oleifera In The Zimbabwean Smallholder Growers" from "International Journal of Agricultural Research, Innovation and Technology" it is stated that Moringa benefits from mycorrhizal nitrogen–fixing association, but the species of fungi are not mentioned.



Finally in

http://ijpsr.com/bft-article/biodiversity-of-the-endophytic-fungi-isolated-from-moringa-oleifera-of-yercaud-hills/?view=fulltext

we have:

"This present study is undertaken to isolate and identify the potential endophytic fungi from Moringa oleifera, a traditional medicinal plant. Based on the macroscopic & microscopic features the fungal isolates were identified as Alternaria spp., Aspergillus spp. Bipolaris spp., Exosphiala spp., Nigrospora spp., and Penicillium spp. "


There may be more about the interactions of Moringa, bacteria and fungi that we have yet to discover.  In any case, leaf litter from the tree will decay and the proteins will revert to nitrogen in the soil.



Acacia

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2019, 09:07:29 AM »

There may be more about the interactions of Moringa, bacteria and fungi that we have yet to discover.  In any case, leaf litter from the tree will decay and the proteins will revert to nitrogen in the soil.

Interesting stuff. I just thought you were thinking Moringa was a legume with nitrogen nodulation. I'ts true any organic matter's nitrogen will feed the soil. Tithonia diversifolia is another fast growing fast rotting plant that makes great fertiliser.

I would like to set up some small ibc ponds just for growing duckweed.

monkeyfish

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2019, 10:08:44 PM »
Duckweed is an interesting idea.  It would contribute more protein/ nitrogen than even moringa, and not a lot of plants can do that. It also is edible.  Not to get off topic, I set up a pond for the chickens to access water, made from a free-on-craigslist jacuzzi shell.  The plants I have in there are just Bacopa and Calamus.  Duckweed might be available here:  https://www.aquabid.com/


Coach62

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Re: Nitrogen Fixers
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2019, 05:32:18 AM »
I find invasive species a bit nonsensical. Pioneer species generally start the succession towards a forest on damaged or bare land. Eventually they make way for longer living taller growing climax species. Biodiversity is improved with all the different species that have made there way around the world in recent times and they are greatly trying to fix all the damage humans are doing.

So many nitrogen fixers are serious invasives

Come drive around south Florida where Brazilian pepper and paper bark trees are crowding out almost EVERYTHING! 
www.ableinspector.com

Stop New Yorking my Florida!

Bruce

 

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