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Author Topic: Fire in the Amazon...  (Read 2658 times)

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2019, 04:05:20 PM »
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations



Oolie

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2019, 04:39:04 PM »
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations



Veering off topic a bit. I'm pretty sure that rainforests are not renewable in that they are a closed ecosystem, one which consists of many layers, which exist due to a lack of wind. At least that is my understanding. So as renewable as timber farming is in Arkansas, I'm not sure it's relevant to the destruction of a closed ecosystem.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2019, 05:28:52 PM »
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations


My family has a forest with trees older than the discovery of the Americas.And altough its a protected forest we can take somme trees from the forest and sell them but none did such thing.
We consider that forest property just like a honorary title or like owning somme land on the Moon.Its ours on paper but we dont consider we have the right to cut it .

Luisport

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shot

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« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 08:53:06 PM by shot »

BonsaiBeast

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2019, 07:43:01 PM »
The Amazon rainforest grows on the poorest soil in the world.Basically there is just a desert and the forest took thousands of years to establish.
After burning the forest for agriculture ,that land will only be good for 10-20 years and after that it will become an  unusable desert.
The bad soil there is the reason those tribes never evolved to have giant cityes and civilisations long term and at least the tribal people used to make terra preta to improove the soil not just burning it to be turned into a desert in 15 years .

Wouldn't millions of years of forest improve the soil?

What does the soil have to do with the development of civilization?

shot

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2019, 07:50:21 PM »
Terra preta is the result civilization.Florida soils are as bad as Amazons

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2019, 08:00:35 PM »
Civilisation didnt evolved on the Amazon because of the bad soil the rainforest grows.Bad soil means no agriculture and no agriculture means no cityes.
But somme ancient amazonian people used slash and char techniques as oposed to slash and burn and the charcoal made the soil suitable for agriculture.
The big fires from now are slash and burn wich renders the soil unusable for agriculture in just 10-20 years.
Its all explained here https://youtu.be/0Os-ujelkgw

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2019, 08:05:41 PM »
https://earthsky.org/earth/how-much-do-oceans-add-to-worlds-oxygen

Everything is renewable . plate tectonics
Thats not a trusty source if it calls the phytoplancton ,plants ! They are not plants but protists ,like bacteria but just they are photosynthetic.Better call them algae not plants.
Algae are not plants.

shot

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« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 08:52:35 PM by shot »

ajeshcool47

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2019, 09:58:29 PM »
shot ,Everything is renewable , but it may take centuries to renew certain things ....

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2019, 04:32:07 AM »
A map with the fires.

frukt

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2019, 06:53:41 AM »
I've done some more fact checking. The reported number of fires has been around 74,000. However, the system in Brazil is not able to discriminate between pasture burning and forest fires. Pasture burning is very common and August is the traditional time. So, no one knows exactly how much of the reported number of fires are due to deforestation activities or burning of grassland pastures. In fact, pay close attention to aerial and ground video of the fires and you will see pasture and scrub vegetation being burnt as well as previously cleared land.


The root of this appears to be related to a reported statement by President Bolsonaro in which he allegedly said some groups have been burning to embarrass him. I found that several weeks ago such a group of farmers did indeed plan a "dia do fogo" (day of fire).
here is the inception of the fires as discussed on August 5th:
 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search

I find it a bit strange. One day this news is on facebook saying media is not covering this story. The next day its all over normal news. Blaming and shaming Bolsonaro. And Im no fan. Of Trump neither but I find it a bit strange that media can make fun of legal presidents like that. And it whouldnt chock me if it was true that there is a conspiracy against Bolsonaro. So easy to do. And thats how politics works this days.

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2019, 07:16:32 AM »
Decades ago Brazilian soils were thought to be too poor to support crops. Mainly this was due to natural acidity and crops which were poorly adapted like corn. Eventually it was found that liming overcomes the acidity and tropically adapted soybean varieties yield two crops /year. After a while this builds up fertility and a rotation with corn, etc is possible. Some farms on these soils have been productive for decades. No question they don't have the ecosystem functions of forest but how many of us would have the things we expect and need if some forests in our countries hadn't been cleared? How much of what we have has come from farming, mining or other extractive land use?

Many of us in developed countries might want to see other countries preserve their resources and not touch their forest lands.
That viewpoint is actually a luxury in part because our own countries previously did exactly the same thing.

For perspective consider also that in the US wildfires consumed 4.8 million acres in 2018 and 3.2 million acres in 58,000 fires this year. Amazon land clearing deforested 2 million acres last year. Yes, we consider that accidental but some were arson campfires or escaped "controlled burns" too.

I think the best we can do is to encourage wise use and a combination of preservation and restoration. Here is a great example in 1200 acres of land which had been clear cut and severely degraded. In 30 years the cosystem has been wisely restored to a point where it is both productive and regenerated, the soil continues to improve, springs which were dry have come back, and he plants trees which could not grow before. Ernst Gotsch has restored, preserved, and shown to others that land in Brazil can be useful as forest along with human occupation. Ironically, nowdays his most used tools are the machete and chainsaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST9NyHf09M

shot

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2019, 09:22:52 AM »
Make some economic incentives for replanting planting biodiversity in continuous tracts of land.I would hate to see so much lost.Labor is inexpensive,and you, employ indigenous people they know the value of forests.
 IF we see no value of the forests what's next no value to human life.soylent?

Honest Abe

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2019, 12:01:37 AM »
Life will find a way, it always finds a way. Climate change is real, just as real as the earth was covered in ice, TWICE. We collaboratively destroyed a Large  percentage of coral reefs, yet some of us choose to propagate those same extinct corals at home, all Over the world. We destroy forests yet some of us propagate many of those burned trees that make the atmosphere suitable for human-kind and feed generations to come. Thats the beauty to Me. It’s an incredible balance of life sustaining more life. I’m
Just saying we are not hopeless, not yet.

Thanks to all of you here on the forumthat continue to spread seeds of life that feed the balance all Over this beautiful world.
-just my opinion
-a lifetime charter-boat fisherman here in Miami Beach
P.S. I love mangoes.
-Capt. Abe

azorean

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2019, 09:36:11 AM »
What we are witnessing is a political instrumentalization of science. Furthermore, the issue needs to be put into perspective so as to consider the politics of deforestation control in Brazil.

•   Following a great hike in deforestation, the Federal government (1st Lula’s term), in 2004,  launched the Programme for the Prevention and Control of Deforestation in the Amazon (PPCDAm),  grouping together different national ministries to thereby better promote coordinated action. This programme’s axes of action were 1) land regularisation, 2) monitoring and policing of illegal deforestation, and 3) promotion of alternative sustainable activities. The programme was a success especially due to its integrated approach and has shown results, the reduction in the deforestation rate that Lula so proudly presented in international events and negotiations.

•   In recent years there has been a slight increase in deforestation rate, but not yet to the levels of 2004. However what is most important is the dismantling of deforestation control policy (and environmental policy more generally) since Bolsonaro came to power, his denial of facts and science, and his rhetoric and discourses against indigenous peoples, environmental NGOs and in favour of a “development” at all costs in he Amazon. A “fire day” (!!!) organised by farmers this month was incentivised by Bolsonaro’s discourses and authorities did nothing to prevent it. Fires have always occurred but never incentivised by the President! And the scale of destruction this year can also be directly linked to the dismantling of Amazon deforestation control by the federal government.

•   On measuring deforestation, two main systems of satellite monitoring are used. The PRODES has been used since 1988 to identify the broad areas of deforestation, and enables calculation of annual rates of deforestation. It remains the main system informing governmental strategies. The other system is DETER, which was created in 2004; it is a real-time system, inputting data every day thus allowing for swift control and punitive actions. It is hence now possible to know in real-time ‘where’ deforestation is occurring and, with the advent of the geo-referenced rural registry (the CAR), ‘who’ has deforested, thus enabling rapid surveillance and enforcement actions. The integration of actions in crime investigation by sharing information with different entities, the use of intelligence, the coordination between the army, federal police and Ibama has helped law enforcement, notably through ‘ostensive’ operations aimed at psychologically deterring deforestation. During Lula’s and Rousseff terms especially.

•   All this monitoring and enforcement mechanism is now at stake with lack of funding (now with Norway and Germany pulling out) and Bolsonaro’s antipathy towards environmental protection; and his denial of satellite-measured data.

•   While agribusiness has been in favour of less restrictions on production in the Amazon and always complained and tried to dismantle these in the national congress where its lobby controls a great portion of the parliamentarians, even them seem now unpleased with Bolsonaro as this situation is affecting Brazil’s international image and hence their ability to export commodities. You start hearing many high profile agribusiness-related parliamentarians criticising  the government.

This would be a great topic to discuss over a coffee, I will stop here. 

phantomcrab

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Richard

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2019, 04:08:38 PM »
Scientists' view - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say
Your link says:
Quote
Recent data have clearly shown that deforestation in Brazil is on the rise. From January through the end of July, 6800 square kilometers were cleared, according to INPE, 50% more than in the same period last year.

6800 sq. km = 680,000 hectares= 1,680,317 acres
While on Friday it is reported that 800,000 hectares(2 million acres) just burned next door in Bolivia.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2019, 06:35:39 PM »
Scientists' view - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say
Your link says:
Quote
Recent data have clearly shown that deforestation in Brazil is on the rise. From January through the end of July, 6800 square kilometers were cleared, according to INPE, 50% more than in the same period last year.

6800 sq. km = 680,000 hectares= 1,680,317 acres
While on Friday it is reported that 800,000 hectares(2 million acres) just burned next door in Bolivia.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search
Bolsonaro is to blame for all the fires in the Amazon,even for those in Bolivia.
Thats because he changed the Enviroment minister with a demented one wich said ,,agriculture is threatened in Brazil,,.
Obviously Bolsonaro took advices from Trump by chosing such minister ,just like Trump did in USA.
The fires from Brazil caused a new ,,gold rush,, in neighbouring countryes like Bolivia where the president there altough leftist,he follows the same path as Bolsonaro.
The forest that burned in Bolivia its not a rainforest but a dry tropical forest and that burned faster than the rainforest but i still think your calculations in hectares are wrong and the fires in Brasil are probably 4-5 times bigger.
This is not right wing vs leftist president,its about mafia that tricks dumb masses of people to suport them so that they meet their goal.
And ,i say it,Trump has a share of the fault because he made this easyer,he encouraged all these flatearthers to ignore the international laws and the common sence agreements.

pineislander

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2019, 10:04:40 PM »
i still think your calculations in hectares are wrong and the fires in Brasil are probably 4-5 times bigger.
My calculations are accurate, and based on the figures quoted in the newspaper, there is a big difference in the case of Bolvia.

I'm not the only one asking why Bolivia is getting a "pass". It turns out that the socialist-dictator-to-be Evo Morales signed a decree legalizing the burning of land in Beni and Santa Clara and others in Latin America are calling him out.

Quote
Evo Morales legalized agrarian burning
A month before the fires, on July 9, Bolivian President Evo Morales approved the modification of the “Supreme Decree (DS) 26075” through the promulgation of DS 3973, which allows burning of permanent forest production lands.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://es.panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2019/08/25/incendio-bolsonaro-evo/&prev=search

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.change.org/p/juicio-de-responsabilidades-por-el-incendio-forestal-en-la-chiquitan%25C3%25ADa-para-el-presidente-evo-morales-ayma-y-abrogaci%25C3%25B3n-de-la-ley-741-pdm-20-decreto-supremo-de-desmonte-ds3973&prev=search

They all obediently stand and applaud as Morales signs the order:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbNyO68UifM

SeaWalnut

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2019, 10:56:06 PM »
Because ,,if Brazil can burn the jungle ,we can burn it also,,.
Bolsonaro its the moral perpetrator here and Brazil its much bigger than Bolivia so its logical to think they have burned more than Bolivia if you look at the map with the fires.
Also Bolivia has no sea,they have to live somehow but Brazil is a wealthy country ,didnt needed to do this.Has a lot of savana allready.

arvind

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Re: Fire in the Amazon...
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2019, 12:03:36 AM »
Civilisation didnt evolved on the Amazon because of the bad soil the rainforest grows.Bad soil means no agriculture and no agriculture means no cityes.
But somme ancient amazonian people used slash and char techniques as oposed to slash and burn and the charcoal made the soil suitable for agriculture.
The big fires from now are slash and burn wich renders the soil unusable for agriculture in just 10-20 years.
Its all explained here https://youtu.be/0Os-ujelkgw
You are right about the soil factor.Thats why complex civilization never sprang up there.Another reason could be due to the fact that the Americas was pretty much isolated from the rest of the world during ancient times.In south East Asia especially in areas which is  Indonesia and Malaysia in the present day  maritime civilization rose about 1000 years in the past thanks to the Indians and Chinese and also arabs
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 12:05:28 AM by arvind »

 

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