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Author Topic: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?  (Read 3289 times)

palmcity

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2019, 12:29:37 PM »


Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite Mango varieties but my young trees set very few fruit. This picture above is a Lemon Zest tree grown in Palm Springs California by Gary and as you can see, his tree consistently sets good amounts of fruit, he probably had 60+ fruit this year.

I would like to gather information from members that grow Lemon Zest in hopes that we can come up with a strategy to improve yields for this excellent tasting variety.

I have heard from two growers that say their trees started setting and holding significantly more fruit after their trees reached a large size.

My tree set a good amount of fruit this year and last year but most the fruit dropped at around 2 inches in length which coincided with an increase in temperatures.

As soon as the fruit dropped from my trees, my tree exploded with vegetative growth. Iím wondering if I can decrease fruit drop by slightly backing off on watering. I already back off on Nitrogen pre bloom.

Any observations or comments are greatly appreciated.
Simon

My trees are small and in sand & full sun and typical low yields so far so I can only add observation comments.

Looking at the picture, It appears a eugenia or other hedge competing for nutrients as well as a paver area changing the ph. Also the hedge is probably shading the tree which is probably advantageous in his area to prevent high heat and fruit drop as you also mentioned with your fruit drop as heat intensifies.

Perhaps the competition with the hedge taking away some minerals, nitrogen, etc. may be slowing growth and fruit drop. Perhaps the ph of his soil is actually not ideal and may be for example higher ph 8 etc. and decreasing again some nitrogen/mineral uptake. So we may actually be loving ours too much vs. his tree in setting up a growth vs. fruiting environment... All guesses. It would be nice to know his soil ph levels around the trees root zone.  A partial canopy/sun block would also be a fairly easy installation on 1 tree to try before temps. increase to see if fruit drop slowed...   

I know little about pools but here is a google quote on concrete affecting soil: "Concrete Raises Soil pH
Concrete is alkaline in nature, meaning it has a pH of 7.0 or above. ... One ingredient is limestone, which is made up of calcium carbonate and is commonly used by home gardeners in a finely ground powder form, called lime, to raise the pH of overly acidic soils.".. Thus obvious also may try increase ph, increase calcium carbonate, etc. etc. etc.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 06:18:07 PM by palmcity »

sapote

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2019, 08:08:41 PM »
Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2019, 11:03:37 PM »
in So Cal, PM seems to be the big issue. I sprayed and still it didnt help. blooms turn black and if you have bead size fruitlets, they end up falling. If that is not enough, then Santa Ana takes care of drops OR mangoes split. Our winter/Spring is weird with wild temp swings, fog, extreme cold and warm days.  Frank has a big tree, now sure how it performed this year. He always start of with over 400 fruits, end up under a dozzen

Behl, my first blooms always get PM really bad but my second or third blooms usually donít get hit as hard. I get plenty of fruit set but they just fall off when they reach 2-4 inches which usually coincides with the heat and a vegetative flush.

Heres a Lemon Zest fruit that just fell off my potted DSGed LZ. Itís about 4 inches long and if it were any other variety, I would expect all but one or two fruit to fall off but since itís LZ and a small potted Bonsai tree, I would guess that all the fruit will fall off. If I can get one fruit to full maturity on this little tree, that would be quite an achievement.

This fruit actually fell off about two days ago. Notice that it doesnít have any signs of fungal disease or Bacterial Black Spot.




My little potted tree still has 3 fruit hanging on that one panicle so Iíll keep everyone updated. My little tree is currently pushing some new growth flushes.

Behl, for my LZ trees, I only notice cracking of fruit on nubbins that werenít completely pollinated. These fruit are much smaller and more rounded in shape and have very prominent dark colored lentils.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:36 PM »


Lemon Zest is one of my all time favorite Mango varieties but my young trees set very few fruit. This picture above is a Lemon Zest tree grown in Palm Springs California by Gary and as you can see, his tree consistently sets good amounts of fruit, he probably had 60+ fruit this year.

I would like to gather information from members that grow Lemon Zest in hopes that we can come up with a strategy to improve yields for this excellent tasting variety.

I have heard from two growers that say their trees started setting and holding significantly more fruit after their trees reached a large size.

My tree set a good amount of fruit this year and last year but most the fruit dropped at around 2 inches in length which coincided with an increase in temperatures.

As soon as the fruit dropped from my trees, my tree exploded with vegetative growth. Iím wondering if I can decrease fruit drop by slightly backing off on watering. I already back off on Nitrogen pre bloom.

Any observations or comments are greatly appreciated.
Simon

My trees are small and in sand & full sun and typical low yields so far so I can only add observation comments.

Looking at the picture, It appears a eugenia or other hedge competing for nutrients as well as a paver area changing the ph. Also the hedge is probably shading the tree which is probably advantageous in his area to prevent high heat and fruit drop as you also mentioned with your fruit drop as heat intensifies.

Perhaps the competition with the hedge taking away some minerals, nitrogen, etc. may be slowing growth and fruit drop. Perhaps the ph of his soil is actually not ideal and may be for example higher ph 8 etc. and decreasing again some nitrogen/mineral uptake. So we may actually be loving ours too much vs. his tree in setting up a growth vs. fruiting environment... All guesses. It would be nice to know his soil ph levels around the trees root zone.  A partial canopy/sun block would also be a fairly easy installation on 1 tree to try before temps. increase to see if fruit drop slowed...   

I know little about pools but here is a google quote on concrete affecting soil: "Concrete Raises Soil pH
Concrete is alkaline in nature, meaning it has a pH of 7.0 or above. ... One ingredient is limestone, which is made up of calcium carbonate and is commonly used by home gardeners in a finely ground powder form, called lime, to raise the pH of overly acidic soils.".. Thus obvious also may try increase ph, increase calcium carbonate, etc. etc. etc.

Palmcity, thanks for the observations. I have a Lemon Zest tree on Kent rootstock in soil with a pH approximately 7.5-8 and it has the same issues. The pH was so high that it wasnít able to uptake most of the minors and trace minerals from the soil and it got chlorotic and sickly. I saved it by using a systemic Fungicide and foliar applications of minors and trace minerals. It is a tiny stunted Bush only a few feet tall and wide but it is fully recovered now and it bloomed last winter but dropped all its fruit.

Gary in Palm Springs has good draining soil but I donít know the pH. Iím still hoping that size or maturity of the tree will allow the tree to hold more fruit.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2019, 11:24:03 PM »
Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.

Sapote,

Iím glad itís growing well for you. We may have to just suck it up and begin a spray regimen. I know some people have stated that they sprayed and still got PM but that just tells me that the spray program/chemical/concentration or contact time was not effective.

Simon

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2019, 05:08:22 AM »
From all the reading I have been doing on the topic of PM, it seems that most of it is host specific, that treatment need not be during the time of infection, that the key trigger is dew, and that promoting airflow, and sunshine in the early morning (keeping the plants dry) is the key to prevention.

When all else fails, spraying should help, whether with skim milk, neem or horticultural oils, any anti-fungal, or a pH adjuster.

If it truly is PM that is the issue. I remember that Leo gets plenty of fruit despite serious PM attack of his blooms. If LZ is dropping fruit, who's to say it isn't to do with maturity? I guess we will find out next year.

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2019, 11:44:07 AM »
Yeah, Leo gets plenty of PM at his orchard but the varieties he is growing is at least partially resistant to PM.

PM is definitely one of the causes of low fruit set because it really affects the blooms but I get multiple blooms and the later blooms donít get affected as much.

Maturity of the tree or a shift in hormones within the tree is likely a cause for fruit drop post fruit set.

My potted DSGed LZ dropped two more fruit yesterday and again, I notice that this is correlated with new vegetative growth on the plant. This natural attrition is probably normal for Mangos but perhaps LZ is just one of those varieties that get a little heavy handed when it comes to self thinning?









Iím thinking that as a large tree, the Lemon Zest variety naturally wants to reach a larger size before hormones levels tip the scales and trigger a reduction in hormones that signal for fruit drop or the opposite happens and there is an increase in hormones that signal for holding onto the fruit.

It could also be that a certain level of stored carbohydrates can influence fruit drop/retention.

Some may argue that VP is a large tree yet it is very precious but it could be variety specific.

In Cherimoyas, the Dr White variety is a large tree canopy variety and it does not hold fruit well until the tree is established for several years and attains a relatively large canopy.

Simon

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2019, 10:42:43 AM »
In order to get 100% photosynthesis the soil needs to be alive or biologically active. This cannot happen if copper sprays and other antibacterial/anti fungals and other chemical pollutants are used.  The bacteria in a healthy soil that is biologically activated has the ability to regulate heat within plants, trigger growth promoting hormones, adjust photochemistry (light) and basically provide the enzymes that radically increase chemical reactivity that brings plants to their full potential.

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2019, 06:46:13 PM »
Hey Frog Valley Farm,

I used to be an Organic purist but Iíve since started using different chemicals/fungicides/insecticide as a last resort. I still believe in feeding the soil food web and taking care of it so that it can feed and take care of my plants.

In my extremely high pH soil, it is difficult to keep everything happy without occasionally adjusting the soil pH and Foliar feeding with minors and trace minerals.

I used to do research on mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria and many of the organisms can actually survive and thrive in harmony with chemical fertilizers and other non organic products. I canít go into detail because of non disclosure agreements.

My largest LZ tree is growing like gangbusters this year so hopefully it will be able to store up a lot of reserves to hold more fruit with each successive year.


Last time I checked the root zone of my larger LZ tree, there were a ton of worms. This tree has a lot of compost and mulch over the drip zone. I donít need to give this tree any Nitrogen because it is getting enough from the soil food web.

Simon

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2019, 06:31:56 AM »
Hey Simon,
It has nothing to do with being either a purist or a polluter it is just management practices.  I am able to adjust ph problems with carbon.  Of course in your challenged specific location it looks like it would be hard to grow a thick two foot deep living orchard floor of over 20 legumes and 20 different grasses and herbs. Basically it does come down to choice and circumstances. Since I chose to farm Biodynamically I cannot bring in any outside fertility and have a completely closed system.  Yes some chemicals are less harsh then others and might help in certain instances with bacteria and fungi but most are pollutants and do more harm then good..  According to recent research the only way to achieve 100% photosynthesis, which i believe we all aspire to do is with natural farming practices.  Your Mango tree looks amazing.

All copper sprays kill bacteria, kill frogs and kill aquatic life.  We cannot live without bacteria. Plants cannot live without bacteria.  Copper sprays do not fix the problems but only camouflage the symptoms  I choose to harbor life.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 08:17:40 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Brev Grower

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2019, 12:34:00 PM »
Maybe I will get a lot of flack for this but I have had an LZ tree now for about 7 years. The first 4 or 5 years were not very productive for me, usually the blooms would get PM and not set much fruit. I did not want to use chemicals of any sort, but I also wanted to enjoy more fruit from one of my absolute favorite mango trees. I finally resorted to spray some copper, usually only once before the blooms in winter, and the production went up significantly. Tree is about 16 feet tall, 10 ft. wide and gave us over 100 mangoes this year, with copper spray X 1. Last year about 70 mangoes and 2 years ago about 40 if memory serves. So if you can spray when blooming, I think you can increase your yield. I am in Brevard county, Fl. Maybe 8 miles from the ocean.
E.

sapote

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2019, 03:43:10 PM »
Simon gave me some LZ budwoods -- thanks Simon -- back in 2016 and the grafts on Manila are big now but have not held a single fruits. About 3 or 4 fruits got to 2.5" then dropped. The tree always had PM but still there were a few fruits formed and growing. I think I will build a big pool next to it like Gary. Heavy dew in April is the reason for PM, even I tried to cover with tarp but didn't help.

Sapote,

I’m glad it’s growing well for you. We may have to just suck it up and begin a spray regimen. I know some people have stated that they sprayed and still got PM but that just tells me that the spray program/chemical/concentration or contact time was not effective.

Simon

Over the weekend I spent sometimes picking the dried leaves and spider web on the mango trees, checking on the fruits and cleaned the scale and mealybugs hiding between the fruits with soapy water. Then I got a big surprise reward: a big Lemon Zest that I never seen before right in front of my eyes!! I passed by this tree everyday but never looked up close at this area and the green fruit blending in well with the leaves. Finally I think I might have one to enjoy after 3 years with Simon’s bud woods. Thank you Simon.

It does look like one of Gary LZ fruits!







simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2019, 10:09:59 PM »
Brev Grower, thanks for the information. Looks like you significantly increased your yield so thatís something to be proud of. Lemon Zest is such an amazing fruit that itís worth the extra effort.

Sapote, congratulations on the LZ fruit! Hopefully it will hold to full maturity for you. How is it doing now? Still holding? For LZ, as soon as you get some yellowing on the skin, it will not be long before it will be ripe and ready to fall off. I gently Palm the fruit and if it falls off, it will ripen properly.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2019, 10:23:44 PM »
I decreased watering to my potted double rootstock LZ and gave it some kelp Emulsion and a lone fruit is still holding. The decrease in watering caused the last vegetative flush to have noticeably smaller leaves. This last fruit may have held anyways, even if I didnít back off on watering but I was curious. Thereís still plenty of time for this fruit to fall off.





Simon

behlgarden

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2019, 10:28:16 PM »
Wondering if anyone has fruited LZ seedling here in So Cal or in Florida? Mine is 4 yr 7 feet tall and should fruit next season, will use kn03

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2019, 01:44:41 AM »
Nothing from my LZ seedlings so far but my grafted Orange Sherbet seedlings tried to hold a fruit this year which I removed. Hopefully your tree will Fruit this coming year. Do you remember if you grew out the stronger or weaker seedling? I know you said it was the one that had the strongest smelling sap.

Simon

behlgarden

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2019, 02:23:25 AM »
I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler

boxturtle

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2019, 12:54:32 AM »
hi Simon so for Lz seems like at least for growth turp is better then la Verne? does anybody knows which rootstock did Gary use?

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2019, 01:18:32 AM »
No, not really. It depends on your specific growing environment. LZ seems to grow better on LaVern Manilla because it is less droopy. My LZ tree on Florida Turpentine rootstock was extremely droopy but I cut off all the lower branches and I have 4 stakes holding it upright. LZ on Florida Turpentine rootstock also seems to get a lot more dieback and gummosis, at least in my yard.

Last year, I lost about 1/3 my entire canopy to dieback on the Florida rootstock and my LZ on LaVern Manilla rootstock did not dieback at all.

Gary in Palm Springs has a LZ on Florida Turpentine rootstock and it grows great for him. It seems that Florida Turpentine rootstock performs better in areas with more heat units.

My LZ tree on Florida Turpentine rootstock does fine in warm weather but dies back in Winter.

My advice for all growers out there is to plant a variety of rootstocks and see which ones take off. Use the vigorous rootstocks that have adapted well to your soil. Donít immediately graft your rootstock trees, let them grow out their scaffold branches before top working. This is because as soon as you Graft with mature scions, your tree will fruit within one year, occasionally two.

LZ grows excellent on Kent, Haden and Tommy Atkins rootstock. If you use Champagne/Ataulfo/Manilla rootstocks, donít Graft onto young seedlings. The LZ scion is too vigorous and can outgrow the rootstock giving you a top heavy tree that can easily snap in half.

My little potted LZ tree is still holding onto that single fruit so things are looking good so far.

Simon

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2019, 09:10:11 AM »
Spraying with most fungicides has to be done very differently from spraying with most insecticides.  Most insecticides should be sprayed only when you see a problem--- an insect infestation already nearing an "economic threshhold."

Most fungicides only work well when you cannot see a problem--- they are sprayed preventively.

A few fungicides are labeled as "curative."  These can be used when you already see a fungus started.
Har

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2019, 09:23:59 AM »
Have you had a full nutritional lab test on leaves before flowering, or before, or at, the time of fruit drop?  That might provide an answer.

Topsoil going deficient in WATER at the time of baby fruits usually causes crop abortion.

Within-the-fruit-and-fruit-stem deficiencies of BORON, ZINC, CALCIUM, and MAGNESIUM cause crop abortion. 
[I once heard a product vendor claim that Selenium deficiency can contribute to fruit drop--- I have no data to evaluate that, but it sounds interesting.]
Har

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2019, 09:30:49 AM »
Has anyone tried Brandt's product for increasing fruit set:  N-Boost?   [I just saw info on it yesterday.]
It contains nutrients and Yeast extract.  I have seen reports of experiments using yeast extracts where significant improvement was claimed.
Probably those of you into Bio-Dynamics have worked with yeast?
Har

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2019, 09:40:04 AM »
I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler

Whatís up Behl. This sounds promising. Do keep us posted.

simon_grow

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2019, 11:27:41 AM »
Thanks for all the information Har! I will be sure to use any fungicides as a preventative.

I have not sent in any samples for leaf analysis but other varieties like Venus, grafted onto the same tree has fruited consistently. I made sure to keep the tree well watered during fruit set and I did have the tree on a Nutritional program for some time.

The issue with Lemon Zest is not isolated to just my yard but many yards all across SoCal. Even mango growing guru Leo Manuel has yet to harvest a single fruit from the LZ grafts I put on his tree several years ago.

There was one year where I sprayed my tree with Kelp and yeast extract per this article
http://scihub.org/ABJNA/PDF/2010/3/1-3-421-429.pdf
If I remember correctly, that year, I harvested a single full sized fruit and several nubbins.

The very late bloom and fruit set on my potted LZ may hint that flower opening and fruit set in the heat of summer where fungal load is minimized, is key. Alternatively, if it is fungus that is the major issue, we should be able to come up with an integrated fungal management program to eliminate fungal spores during panicle formation up past fruit set.

Whatís boggling my mind is that I had excellent fruit set and fruit simply dropped at the size of 2-3 inches. Watering was consistent and Venus, grafted onto the same tree held its fruit and only LZ dropped most its fruit.

I wonder if fungus may have infected the ovaries early on in fruit set and caused delayed abortion of fruit?

Simon

behlgarden

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Re: How to increase yield on Lemon Zest Mango?
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2019, 01:43:20 PM »
I grew the strongest. Out of 7 together one confined to thrive. Sap smell is 10x stronger Mandarin smell than LZ or peach cobbler

Whatís up Behl. This sounds promising. Do keep us posted.

I am planning to spray KNO3 this winter to force blooming, and see what happens, I cant wait for it to fruit,

 

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