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Author Topic: Kaffir lime might itself be a variety of papeda, not a hybrid of Ichang papeda  (Read 3237 times)

lavender87

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   The leaves of karffir lime has the petiole wing that is almost the size of its blade. I noticed that all of Ichang papeda hybrid has much smaller ratio between leaf petiole wing and leaf blade. Moreover, assuming that kaffir lime was a hybrid between Ichang Papeda and Citron, then it would be as cold hardy as Ichang Lemon or yuzu; however, the fact is kaffir lime is very sensitive to frost, and its cold hardiness could not even compare to Meyer Lemon.


 Kaffir lime (Mauritius papeda):



 Ichang papeda:



 Melanesian Papeda:



 
Citrus hystrix var. micrantha - small papeda (Locally known as the biasong and samuyao)
Citrus hystrix var. celebica - Celebes papeda
Citrus hystrix var. macroptera - Melanesian papeda
Citrus cavaleriei - Ichang papeda
Citrus latipes - khasi papeda
Citrus hystrix - The kaffir lime or Mauritius papeda

« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 09:46:42 AM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Kaffir lime might itself be a variety of papeda, not a hybrid of Ichang papeda
It's not a hybrid of Ichang papeda, it's another species of papeda (or a hybrid of that species of papeda).

Swingle believed the species now known as Khasi papeda was a subtype of Ichang papeda. However, it is now classified as a different (but closely related) species.

I seem to recall something about Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, with sour mandarin or sour orange, but cannot remember now, and I don't feel like going back trying to search through my old posts and taking the effort to do the research now. Could be wrong about that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 11:36:24 PM by SoCal2warm »

Huyen Linh Ho

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It's not a hybrid of Ichang papeda, it's another species of papeda (or a hybrid of that species of papeda).

I seem to recall something about being Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, but cannot remember now.

  Thank you for the confimation that it was not a hybrid of ichang papeda.

  I believe that all of papeda hybrid will lose their perfect ratio of leaf winged petiole and leaflet. The special character of papeda family was its distinct leaf shape. For example, yuzu has a much smaller leaf petiole comparing to ichang papeda.

SoCal2warm

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Kaffir lime does not seem to display very symetrically sized leaf petioles in its early stages growing as a seedling. I grew several from seed and their leaves look similar to Yuzu. Most likely they will display more papeda like foliage as they grow bigger.

Huyen Linh Ho

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Kaffir lime does not seem to display very symetrically sized leaf petioles in its early stages growing as a seedling. I grew several from seed and their leaves look similar to Yuzu. Most likely they will display more papeda like foliage as they grow bigger.

 Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 08:27:18 AM by Huyen Linh Ho »

lavender87

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Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion.

Zitrusgaertner

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Huyen Linh Ho wrote:

"I believe that all of papeda hybrid will lose their perfect ratio of leaf winged petiole and leaflet. The special character of papeda family was its distinct leaf shape. For example, yuzu has a much smaller leaf petiole comparing to ichang papeda."

as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.

Huyen Linh Ho

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as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.

  Oh, thanks. I did not read that post from Ilya. All of the previous assumptions in the past was wrong about yuzu and kaffir lime. There were still many sources claims that kaffir lime is a hybird of citron and papeda, and yuzu is suspected to be a hybrid of Ichang papeda and sour mandarin.

  I still believe that all of the hybrid of either pepada or trifoliate would lose its leaf symmetrical shape. The three leaflets of the trifoliate poncirus leaf is nearly symmetrical, but any of its hybrid loses the leaf symmetry.

 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:04:15 AM by Huyen Linh Ho »

lebmung

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kaffir lime not only that it freezes, but root rot during cold weather is a bigger killer, still hardier than other limes.

Bomand

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I have grown Kaff lime for several years and yes you are right. Im in zone 9 and I have to have limes potted....everything else is in the ground. Not only will cold kill them but I find them "finicky" as to temp, light,fertilize and water amounts. Just a little too much water and you get root problems. Moving them in and out in winter will sometimes cause leaf drop and twig end die back. Of all the limes I find Mexican easiest to manipulate and Kaff the hardest to grow and care for.

SoCal2warm

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
No, I have not grown ichang papeda seedlings, but do have several very small rooted cuttings. They all show the normal symmetrical petiole-leaf shape seen in mature ichang papeda. I doubt seedlings would be any different.

SoCal2warm

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as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.
I don't think that's been determined with any certainty, although it could well be true.

(It might, for example, have descended from a different lineage of ichangensis, now extinct, which is not exactly the same as the ichangensis people have in collections now)

The only thing that can be said with certainty is Yuzu is not a direct (first generation) hybrid of ichangensis.

However, Yuzu does show a strong genetic similarity to ichangensis in DNA marker studies. It's just not such a direct correlation that we can easily figure out the exact relationship connection.

lebmung

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I have grown Kaff lime for several years and yes you are right. Im in zone 9 and I have to have limes potted....everything else is in the ground. Not only will cold kill them but I find them "finicky" as to temp, light,fertilize and water amounts. Just a little too much water and you get root problems. Moving them in and out in winter will sometimes cause leaf drop and twig end die back. Of all the limes I find Mexican easiest to manipulate and Kaff the hardest to grow and care for.

Root rot occurs on kaffir lime when it's grown from seeds or cuttings.
I don't have a problem to over winter them. They don't drop leaves unless they freeze or have a temperature shock. Now it depends on the rootstock. Ischang papeda it's good enough, grows fast and offers hardiness. With PT there is benching and graft union is not stable when it's mature. I don't see any benefits with PT as KL freezes so no point to graft it on something that is slow growing.

SoCal2warm

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  I still believe that all of the hybrid of either pepada or trifoliate would lose its leaf symmetrical shape.
I have 3 different hybrids of ichangensis, and they do not display symmetric shaped leaves like ichangensis.
ichangensis x pomelo (Ichang lemon, originated from Chinese cultivar)
ichangensis x kumquat (Ichangquat)
ichangensis x trifoliata (N1tri)
I have seen pictures of ichangensis x sweet orange, and its leaves look like orange.

It's possible a backcross of one of these hybrids with ichangensis might display ichangensis-like leaves.

I grew numerous seedlings from ichangquat, and none of them showed the distinct ichangensis leaves, which makes me inclined to think this trait may not show up in the F2 generation either. Although of course it could just be the particular ichangquat hybrid to begin with which by chance did not inherit the right set of genes.

So I really can't say with completely certainty whether any hybrid with ichangensis might display ichangensis-type leaves.


Ilya11

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ichangensis x pomelo (Ichang lemon, originated from Chinese cultivar)
Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid >:(
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid >:(

 This makes more sense since Ichang papeda fruits do not have strong fragrances. Ichang lemon has another name, "fragrance ball", so it is weird if Ichang lemon is a hybrid of Ichang papeda and pomelo; however, I think Socal2warm mentioned to the (lost ichangensis) which was believed to be the ancestor of YUZU instead of the nowaday Ichang papeda.

lavender87

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 Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?

  My Ichang papeda is currently too small, so I feel bad to pick a leaf from it.

lebmung

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Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?

  My Ichang papeda is currently too small, so I feel bad to pick a leaf from it.

 I have many leaves, I picked up no smell or good taste. Nothing compared to kaffir limes or bears limes.

lavender87

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I have many leaves, I picked up no smell or good taste. Nothing compared to kaffir limes or bears limes.

  Thanks lebmung. According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then. I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits. Ichang papeda hybrid might slightly improve the cold hardiness but might as well give up the quality of fruits.

  I just wonder if there existed a lost variety of ichangensis (believed to be yuzu ancestor) then why people got rid of such an excellent variety. I assumed that variety of ichangensis must offer very strong fragrant fruits, even more fragrant than nowaday yuzu.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:16:31 PM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?
Yes I did. It's not as harsh as an orange leaf, much more mild. It strongly reminds me of the leaves of citron, kind of a clear clean very light lemony aroma.
It does have just a little bit of bitterness, but is mostly lacking in flavor.
It's not as good as Kaffir lime leaves.

Both the leaves of regular lemon and Yuzu have sort of a bit of harsh petitgrain smell/flavor like regular citrus. Citron, Kaffir lime, and Ichang papeda leaves do not have this petitgrain-like harshness.


According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then.
I don't think "useless" would an appropriate description, but definitely inferior to other available varieties.

I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits.
The leaves are not entirely insipid, but mostly that way. As I stated, there's a very faint light lemony citron aroma.

There is also a "deepness" to the smell of Ichang papeda leaves that it shares in common with Yuzu, but it lacks the "spiciness" of Yuzu.

  I just wonder if there existed a lost variety of ichangensis (believed to be yuzu ancestor) then why people got rid of such an excellent variety. I assumed that variety of ichangensis must offer very strong fragrant fruits, even more fragrant than nowaday yuzu.
You are going way off-topic.
Most likely people grew it in that part of ancient China because that was the only "lemon" they were able to grow.
In those times people had to grow most of what they used locally. Trade with distant regions was more difficult and expensive, impractical to transport fresh fruits over long distances.
They apparently did have some cultivars of Ichang papeda with slightly better fruit quality, but I don't think they were that much better than the wild type.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:50:27 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid
As far as I am aware, it has not been determined with certainty whether it's a Pomelo x ichangensis, or Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid.

At least in the DNA marker studies I have looked at, Yuzu shares a close enough DNA marker profile to ichangensis that it was not possible for them to determine or differentiate in this case.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to determine, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a specific study that revealed which of those two the parent was, and was more specific.

Sorry about that though, you are right, I should have clarified that Ichang lemon might not have been a direct hybrid of ichangensis. I thought that might just get too complicated though.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:48:49 PM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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  Thanks lebmung. According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then. I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits. Ichang papeda hybrid might slightly improve the cold hardiness but might as well give up the quality of fruits.
[/quote]

I didn't say it's a useless variety! It's good candidate for hybridization.
I grow many from cuttings, I use them as a vigourous cold hardy rootstock, very good for pots.

Huyen Linh Ho

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I didn't say it's a useless variety! It's good candidate for hybridization.
I grow many from cuttings, I use them as a vigourous cold hardy rootstock, very good for pots.

  Pocirus is a much better rootstock for its better cold hardiness. Ichang papeda is not much more cold tolerant than yuzu but offers low quality fruits, why should people consider ichang papeda in their hybridization program?

  There exist several varieties of poncirus. Some poncirus varieties are vigorous, but some are not. I germinated many flying dragon seeds and seedlings did not seem to be alike. Some are very vigorous and others are extremely contorted and slow growing.

  My friend had to graft ichang papeda onto poncirus to make sure it not getting injured in zone 8a.

The ichang papeda in pictures is not mine. I will ask him for one when his tree grows older.



« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 08:33:01 PM by Huyen Linh Ho »

Ilya11

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid
As far as I am aware, it has not been determined with certainty whether it's a Pomelo x ichangensis, or Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid.

At least in the DNA marker studies I have looked at, Yuzu shares a close enough DNA marker profile to ichangensis that it was not possible for them to determine or differentiate in this case.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to determine, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a specific study that revealed which of those two the parent was, and was more specific.

I guess you are aware of such a data obtained with most up to date methods, but prefer to live in your pseudo scientific prophetic beliefs  I posted the link to this publication many times in connection with your fake statements. Here it is one time more:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969

"Swingle considered Ichang lemon (C. wilsonii Tanaka) to be a hybrid of C. ichangensis and C. maxima [11]. In contrast, Tanaka regarded it
as an indigenous variety related to yuzu, and classified both C. ichangensis and C. wilsonii to
subgenus Eucitrus [12]. Their inferred parentage in this study confirm that C. wilsonii is an offspring of yuzu as Tanaka stated [12]. However, there is no evidence to suggest kinship of C.
ichangensis and yuzu, and direct parentage of C. ichangensis and C. wilsonii are consequently
refuted. Their cytotypes also suggest no direct kinship between them (Table 15, Fig 8)
."
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Laaz

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Ilya you know SoCalCharlie is a self proclaimed expert on cut & paste. Lol!

Ilya11

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At one point I thought he is a bot, compiling, mixing and pasting all information possible.
But now I know he is real, just trying to be greater than he is.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Laaz

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Indeed, doesn't have the first clue but tries to convince everyone he is a expert. Like I said anyone should be able to tell by his plants...

lavender87

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Ilya you know SoCalCharlie is a self proclaimed expert on cut & paste. Lol!

  There should not be such an attitude in here. This is an open forum for everybody to learn as well as to exchange knowledge. If someone thinks or believes his/her is here to teach, please get a degree and apply for an official job at some Univerisity or some research institution.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 03:17:23 PM by lavender87 »

lavender87

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At one point I thought he is a bot, compiling, mixing and pasting all information possible.
But now I know he is real, just trying to be greater than he is.

  Ilya11, I would like to thank you for providing useful information. I am also thankful to Socal his/her contribution. Without active members in this forum, it will be a boring one.

Laaz

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Lol! So lavender87 misinformation is as good as the truth you say?

Bomand

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The truth is an item that is hard to find sometimes......especially when its covered by bull crap. Bull crap is easy to find, stinks like bull crap and is hard to wash off. You learn from it.....first lesson is to steer clear of it by not getting it on you again.😁

Laaz

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Indeed.

lebmung

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  Pocirus is a much better rootstock for its better cold hardiness. Ichang papeda is not much more cold tolerant than yuzu but offers low quality fruits, why should people consider ichang papeda in their hybridization program

Like I said it all depends on your roostock application, it fits for me successfully.
PT is hardy but also goes into full dormancy from November to March. IP on the other hand it's evergreen.
There are many hybrids, including Ichandarins.

Laaz

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I don't sugar coat anything, I'll tell you the truth from my experience & facts. I guess we need a forum here for those that don't want the truth or facts. Wait this all sounds familiar...

Millet

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I let all members pretty much state their opinions, but we all should be pleasant.

lavender87

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I let all members pretty much state their opinions, but we all should be pleasant.


 Thanks Millet. Strongly agreed. There are many ways to correct or implement someone's information. There is freedom of speach, so people can share their experience, opinions. If there is some mis-information, anyone can nicely correct that.

 I've just wondered where you are to not saying a word about harsh comments. This forum is a great place for discussion on the basis of respecting each other.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:52:43 AM by lavender87 »

Ilya11

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Lavender87,
For the last 3 years I gently and patiently  was trying to correct the tons of fake prophetic statements.
 I was doing this because they  always will be on the net and can  mislead  very many  people.
I understand that it is a lot of fun to generate such texts, but it is incredibly irresponsible  and destructive.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Lavender87,
For the last 3 years I gently and patiently  was trying to correct the tons of fake prophetic statements.
 I was doing this because they  always will be on the net and can  mislead  very many  people.
I understand that it is a lot of fun to generate such texts, but it is incredibly irresponsible  and destructive.

  I understood it now. Later in this forum people should clearly stated what considered a personal experience or opinion from what being facts with cited publications or proofs. If someone shares something regarding their personal experience, it is good to keep a note. Thanks Ilya11 for clarification.

Bomand

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Here is a truth:  No one knows everything. I have been into citrus for many years. I can and do learn new things all the time. Some of us are placated with the pleasure of learning...unfortunately some of us seem to only get satisfaction from projecting opinions and uneducated guesses as to subject matter. The cure for this is to be educated enough to see false and misleadings statements for what they are. Part of that cure is to avoid people that have consistently led people down a false or cumbersom path....when things get mired in falsehoods, Bomand is like Elvis......he leaves the building.......

SoCal2warm

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
I have an update and can answer that question now.
I grew a seed from an Ichang papeda fruit. (This is the tree in Portland that I have previously described in other posts, not surrounded by any other citrus trees)
This is my first time actually growing Ichang papeda from seed.
I have just checked on it right now, and the a little seedling has sprouted up with four little leaves.
But here is the interesting thing: all of those little leaves have absolutely no trace of winged petioles! They are completely single leaves.

This seems very bizarre to me. I've grown numerous different Ichang papeda hybrids from seed before (well, nearly all of them I think, Yuzu, N1tri, numerous Ichangquat seedlings). They all had at least some winged petiole on the leaves when the seedling first sprouted.

All of my very small Ichang papeda cuttings that I grew also sprouted leaves with fairly big sized winged petioles, even though the cutting may have been very small (like 3 inches).

So it appears you might be right. This is very strange.

This is only one seedling, so I can't say for sure whether this would be a pattern.


And I am absolutely sure this seed came from an Ichang papeda fruit. I have not very recently grown anything else from seed, so there is no possibility there could have been an accidental mix-up.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 02:44:46 AM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
I have an update and can answer that question now.
I grew a seed from an Ichang papeda fruit. (This is the tree in Portland that I have previously described in other posts, not surrounded by any other citrus trees)
This is my first time actually growing Ichang papeda from seed.
I have just checked on it right now, and the a little seedling has sprouted up with four little leaves.
But here is the interesting thing: all of those little leaves have absolutely no trace of winged petioles! They are completely single leaves.

This seems very bizarre to me. I've grown numerous different Ichang papeda hybrids from seed before (well, nearly all of them I think, Yuzu, N1tri, numerous Ichangquat seedlings). They all had at least some winged petiole on the leaves when the seedling first sprouted.

All of my very small Ichang papeda cuttings that I grew also sprouted leaves with fairly big sized winged petioles, even though the cutting may have been very small (like 3 inches).

So it appears you might be right. This is very strange.

This is only one seedling, so I can't say for sure whether this would be a pattern.


And I am absolutely sure this seed came from an Ichang papeda fruit. I have not very recently grown anything else from seed, so there is no possibility there could have been an accidental mix-up.

It's nirmal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.

SoCal2warm

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It's normal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.
Due to where the tree is, it's impossible for it to be a hybrid, I would think. The tree is in a very large sprawling botanical garden in Portland, Basically in the middle of a small forest on a mountain top in the middle of the city. There are no other citrus trees nearby. Normal citrus trees cannot be grown outside this far north. That Ichang papeda tree itself is already a rare specimen, in this region of the country.
There are not any houses close by either. I do not see how it could have been pollinated by another citrus tree.

lebmung

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It's normal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.
Due to where the tree is, it's impossible for it to be a hybrid, I would think. The tree is in a very large sprawling botanical garden in Portland, Basically in the middle of a small forest on a mountain top in the middle of the city. There are no other citrus trees nearby. Normal citrus trees cannot be grown outside this far north. That Ichang papeda tree itself is already a rare specimen, in this region of the country.
There are not any houses close by either. I do not see how it could have been pollinated by another citrus tree.

First sets of leaves are monofoliate, wait for the tree to grow more. If I were you I would take cuttings for the tree. They root very easily.


Laaz

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He has three or four different usernames he goes by on various forums, just a heads up for dis-information.

Laaz

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He loves to troll my forum...


SoCal2warm

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Swingle believed the species now known as Khasi papeda was a subtype of Ichang papeda. However, it is now classified as a different (but closely related) species.
quote from the old article here:

" This species [Ichang papeda] is cultivated in the vicinity of Ichang, and it bears a very large lemonlike fruit that is of sufficiently good quality to cause it to be shipped to markets several hundred miles distant.
In China this species occurs in an undoubted wild state in the hills of the Upper Yangtze Valley from Ichang west and southwest in Hupeh, Szechwan, and Kwichow, growing at altitudes of 1,500 to 6,000 feet. In Assam a closely related but slightly different form is found at an altitude of 5,000 to 6,000 feet in the Khasi Hills.
The species thus ranges over a region at least 1,500 miles long and some 500 miles wide. "

Journal of Agricultural Research, Department of Agriculture, Volume 1, Washington D.C., October 10, 1913
Citrus ichangensis, A promising, hardy, new species from Southwestern China and Assam, article by Walter T. Swingle

SoCal2warm

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I seem to recall something about Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, with sour mandarin or sour orange, but cannot remember now, and I don't feel like going back trying to search through my old posts and taking the effort to do the research now. Could be wrong about that.

Take a look at Fig. 3, page 1161.

Notice how C. hystrix (kaffir lime) shares a close relationship to C. latipes (khasi papeda), while C. aurantifolia (key lime) is somewhere in-between, in relation.

Also notice that while C. limon (lemon) is on the branch offshoot, C. medica (citron) is actually very far away.
I believe what this is showing is sour orange ancestry.

The diagram seems to indicate that C. hystrix is closer in relation to limes, while C. latipes is further away, and closer to other normal citrus.

That would be the complete opposite of what would be expected if C. hystrix were a hybrid of C. latipes and sour orange.

Theoretical and Applied Genetics (2000) 100:11551166, "Citrus phylogeny and genetic origin of important species
as investigated by molecular markers", E. Nicolosi
http://citruspages.free.fr/Citrus_phylogeny.pdf

So this does suggest that I may have been wrong, in that earlier post.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 11:48:29 PM by SoCal2warm »

 

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