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Author Topic: Kaffir lime might itself be a variety of papeda, not a hybrid of Ichang papeda  (Read 1858 times)

lavender87

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   The leaves of karffir lime has the petiole wing that is almost the size of its blade. I noticed that all of Ichang papeda hybrid has much smaller ratio between leaf petiole wing and leaf blade. Moreover, assuming that kaffir lime was a hybrid between Ichang Papeda and Citron, then it would be as cold hardy as Ichang Lemon or yuzu; however, the fact is kaffir lime is very sensitive to frost, and its cold hardiness could not even compare to Meyer Lemon.


 Kaffir lime (Mauritius papeda):



 Ichang papeda:



 Melanesian Papeda:



 
Citrus hystrix var. micrantha - small papeda (Locally known as the biasong and samuyao)
Citrus hystrix var. celebica - Celebes papeda
Citrus hystrix var. macroptera - Melanesian papeda
Citrus cavaleriei - Ichang papeda
Citrus latipes - khasi papeda
Citrus hystrix - The kaffir lime or Mauritius papeda

« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 09:46:42 AM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Kaffir lime might itself be a variety of papeda, not a hybrid of Ichang papeda
It's not a hybrid of Ichang papeda, it's another species of papeda (or a hybrid of that species of papeda).

Swingle believed the species now known as Khasi papeda was a subtype of Ichang papeda. However, it is now classified as a different (but closely related) species.

I seem to recall something about Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, with sour mandarin or sour orange, but cannot remember now, and I don't feel like going back trying to search through my old posts and taking the effort to do the research now. Could be wrong about that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 11:36:24 PM by SoCal2warm »

Huyen Linh Ho

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It's not a hybrid of Ichang papeda, it's another species of papeda (or a hybrid of that species of papeda).

I seem to recall something about being Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, but cannot remember now.

  Thank you for the confimation that it was not a hybrid of ichang papeda.

  I believe that all of papeda hybrid will lose their perfect ratio of leaf winged petiole and leaflet. The special character of papeda family was its distinct leaf shape. For example, yuzu has a much smaller leaf petiole comparing to ichang papeda.

SoCal2warm

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Kaffir lime does not seem to display very symetrically sized leaf petioles in its early stages growing as a seedling. I grew several from seed and their leaves look similar to Yuzu. Most likely they will display more papeda like foliage as they grow bigger.

Huyen Linh Ho

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Kaffir lime does not seem to display very symetrically sized leaf petioles in its early stages growing as a seedling. I grew several from seed and their leaves look similar to Yuzu. Most likely they will display more papeda like foliage as they grow bigger.

 Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 08:27:18 AM by Huyen Linh Ho »

lavender87

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Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion.

Zitrusgaertner

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Huyen Linh Ho wrote:

"I believe that all of papeda hybrid will lose their perfect ratio of leaf winged petiole and leaflet. The special character of papeda family was its distinct leaf shape. For example, yuzu has a much smaller leaf petiole comparing to ichang papeda."

as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.

Huyen Linh Ho

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as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.

  Oh, thanks. I did not read that post from Ilya. All of the previous assumptions in the past was wrong about yuzu and kaffir lime. There were still many sources claims that kaffir lime is a hybird of citron and papeda, and yuzu is suspected to be a hybrid of Ichang papeda and sour mandarin.

  I still believe that all of the hybrid of either pepada or trifoliate would lose its leaf symmetrical shape. The three leaflets of the trifoliate poncirus leaf is nearly symmetrical, but any of its hybrid loses the leaf symmetry.

 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:04:15 AM by Huyen Linh Ho »

lebmung

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kaffir lime not only that it freezes, but root rot during cold weather is a bigger killer, still hardier than other limes.

Bomand

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I have grown Kaff lime for several years and yes you are right. Im in zone 9 and I have to have limes potted....everything else is in the ground. Not only will cold kill them but I find them "finicky" as to temp, light,fertilize and water amounts. Just a little too much water and you get root problems. Moving them in and out in winter will sometimes cause leaf drop and twig end die back. Of all the limes I find Mexican easiest to manipulate and Kaff the hardest to grow and care for.

SoCal2warm

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
No, I have not grown ichang papeda seedlings, but do have several very small rooted cuttings. They all show the normal symmetrical petiole-leaf shape seen in mature ichang papeda. I doubt seedlings would be any different.

SoCal2warm

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as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.
I don't think that's been determined with any certainty, although it could well be true.

(It might, for example, have descended from a different lineage of ichangensis, now extinct, which is not exactly the same as the ichangensis people have in collections now)

The only thing that can be said with certainty is Yuzu is not a direct (first generation) hybrid of ichangensis.

However, Yuzu does show a strong genetic similarity to ichangensis in DNA marker studies. It's just not such a direct correlation that we can easily figure out the exact relationship connection.

lebmung

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I have grown Kaff lime for several years and yes you are right. Im in zone 9 and I have to have limes potted....everything else is in the ground. Not only will cold kill them but I find them "finicky" as to temp, light,fertilize and water amounts. Just a little too much water and you get root problems. Moving them in and out in winter will sometimes cause leaf drop and twig end die back. Of all the limes I find Mexican easiest to manipulate and Kaff the hardest to grow and care for.

Root rot occurs on kaffir lime when it's grown from seeds or cuttings.
I don't have a problem to over winter them. They don't drop leaves unless they freeze or have a temperature shock. Now it depends on the rootstock. Ischang papeda it's good enough, grows fast and offers hardiness. With PT there is benching and graft union is not stable when it's mature. I don't see any benefits with PT as KL freezes so no point to graft it on something that is slow growing.

SoCal2warm

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  I still believe that all of the hybrid of either pepada or trifoliate would lose its leaf symmetrical shape.
I have 3 different hybrids of ichangensis, and they do not display symmetric shaped leaves like ichangensis.
ichangensis x pomelo (Ichang lemon, originated from Chinese cultivar)
ichangensis x kumquat (Ichangquat)
ichangensis x trifoliata (N1tri)
I have seen pictures of ichangensis x sweet orange, and its leaves look like orange.

It's possible a backcross of one of these hybrids with ichangensis might display ichangensis-like leaves.

I grew numerous seedlings from ichangquat, and none of them showed the distinct ichangensis leaves, which makes me inclined to think this trait may not show up in the F2 generation either. Although of course it could just be the particular ichangquat hybrid to begin with which by chance did not inherit the right set of genes.

So I really can't say with completely certainty whether any hybrid with ichangensis might display ichangensis-type leaves.


Ilya11

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ichangensis x pomelo (Ichang lemon, originated from Chinese cultivar)
Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid >:(
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid >:(

 This makes more sense since Ichang papeda fruits do not have strong fragrances. Ichang lemon has another name, "fragrance ball", so it is weird if Ichang lemon is a hybrid of Ichang papeda and pomelo; however, I think Socal2warm mentioned to the (lost ichangensis) which was believed to be the ancestor of YUZU instead of the nowaday Ichang papeda.

lavender87

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 Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?

  My Ichang papeda is currently too small, so I feel bad to pick a leaf from it.

lebmung

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Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?

  My Ichang papeda is currently too small, so I feel bad to pick a leaf from it.

 I have many leaves, I picked up no smell or good taste. Nothing compared to kaffir limes or bears limes.

lavender87

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I have many leaves, I picked up no smell or good taste. Nothing compared to kaffir limes or bears limes.

  Thanks lebmung. According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then. I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits. Ichang papeda hybrid might slightly improve the cold hardiness but might as well give up the quality of fruits.

  I just wonder if there existed a lost variety of ichangensis (believed to be yuzu ancestor) then why people got rid of such an excellent variety. I assumed that variety of ichangensis must offer very strong fragrant fruits, even more fragrant than nowaday yuzu.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:16:31 PM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?
Yes I did. It's not as harsh as an orange leaf, much more mild. It strongly reminds me of the leaves of citron, kind of a clear clean very light lemony aroma.
It does have just a little bit of bitterness, but is mostly lacking in flavor.
It's not as good as Kaffir lime leaves.

Both the leaves of regular lemon and Yuzu have sort of a bit of harsh petitgrain smell/flavor like regular citrus. Citron, Kaffir lime, and Ichang papeda leaves do not have this petitgrain-like harshness.


According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then.
I don't think "useless" would an appropriate description, but definitely inferior to other available varieties.

I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits.
The leaves are not entirely insipid, but mostly that way. As I stated, there's a very faint light lemony citron aroma.

There is also a "deepness" to the smell of Ichang papeda leaves that it shares in common with Yuzu, but it lacks the "spiciness" of Yuzu.

  I just wonder if there existed a lost variety of ichangensis (believed to be yuzu ancestor) then why people got rid of such an excellent variety. I assumed that variety of ichangensis must offer very strong fragrant fruits, even more fragrant than nowaday yuzu.
You are going way off-topic.
Most likely people grew it in that part of ancient China because that was the only "lemon" they were able to grow.
In those times people had to grow most of what they used locally. Trade with distant regions was more difficult and expensive, impractical to transport fresh fruits over long distances.
They apparently did have some cultivars of Ichang papeda with slightly better fruit quality, but I don't think they were that much better than the wild type.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:50:27 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid
As far as I am aware, it has not been determined with certainty whether it's a Pomelo x ichangensis, or Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid.

At least in the DNA marker studies I have looked at, Yuzu shares a close enough DNA marker profile to ichangensis that it was not possible for them to determine or differentiate in this case.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to determine, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a specific study that revealed which of those two the parent was, and was more specific.

Sorry about that though, you are right, I should have clarified that Ichang lemon might not have been a direct hybrid of ichangensis. I thought that might just get too complicated though.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:48:49 PM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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  Thanks lebmung. According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then. I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits. Ichang papeda hybrid might slightly improve the cold hardiness but might as well give up the quality of fruits.
[/quote]

I didn't say it's a useless variety! It's good candidate for hybridization.
I grow many from cuttings, I use them as a vigourous cold hardy rootstock, very good for pots.

Huyen Linh Ho

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I didn't say it's a useless variety! It's good candidate for hybridization.
I grow many from cuttings, I use them as a vigourous cold hardy rootstock, very good for pots.

  Pocirus is a much better rootstock for its better cold hardiness. Ichang papeda is not much more cold tolerant than yuzu but offers low quality fruits, why should people consider ichang papeda in their hybridization program?

  There exist several varieties of poncirus. Some poncirus varieties are vigorous, but some are not. I germinated many flying dragon seeds and seedlings did not seem to be alike. Some are very vigorous and others are extremely contorted and slow growing.

  My friend had to graft ichang papeda onto poncirus to make sure it not getting injured in zone 8a.

The ichang papeda in pictures is not mine. I will ask him for one when his tree grows older.



« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 08:33:01 PM by Huyen Linh Ho »

Ilya11

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Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid
As far as I am aware, it has not been determined with certainty whether it's a Pomelo x ichangensis, or Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid.

At least in the DNA marker studies I have looked at, Yuzu shares a close enough DNA marker profile to ichangensis that it was not possible for them to determine or differentiate in this case.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to determine, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a specific study that revealed which of those two the parent was, and was more specific.

I guess you are aware of such a data obtained with most up to date methods, but prefer to live in your pseudo scientific prophetic beliefs  I posted the link to this publication many times in connection with your fake statements. Here it is one time more:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969

"Swingle considered Ichang lemon (C. wilsonii Tanaka) to be a hybrid of C. ichangensis and C. maxima [11]. In contrast, Tanaka regarded it
as an indigenous variety related to yuzu, and classified both C. ichangensis and C. wilsonii to
subgenus Eucitrus [12]. Their inferred parentage in this study confirm that C. wilsonii is an offspring of yuzu as Tanaka stated [12]. However, there is no evidence to suggest kinship of C.
ichangensis and yuzu, and direct parentage of C. ichangensis and C. wilsonii are consequently
refuted. Their cytotypes also suggest no direct kinship between them (Table 15, Fig 8)
."
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Laaz

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Ilya you know SoCalCharlie is a self proclaimed expert on cut & paste. Lol!

 

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