Author Topic: Kaffir lime might itself be a variety of papeda, not a hybrid of Ichang papeda  (Read 3656 times)

Ilya11

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At one point I thought he is a bot, compiling, mixing and pasting all information possible.
But now I know he is real, just trying to be greater than he is.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Laaz

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Indeed, doesn't have the first clue but tries to convince everyone he is a expert. Like I said anyone should be able to tell by his plants...

lavender87

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Ilya you know SoCalCharlie is a self proclaimed expert on cut & paste. Lol!

  There should not be such an attitude in here. This is an open forum for everybody to learn as well as to exchange knowledge. If someone thinks or believes his/her is here to teach, please get a degree and apply for an official job at some Univerisity or some research institution.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 03:17:23 PM by lavender87 »

lavender87

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At one point I thought he is a bot, compiling, mixing and pasting all information possible.
But now I know he is real, just trying to be greater than he is.

  Ilya11, I would like to thank you for providing useful information. I am also thankful to Socal his/her contribution. Without active members in this forum, it will be a boring one.

Laaz

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Lol! So lavender87 misinformation is as good as the truth you say?

Bomand

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The truth is an item that is hard to find sometimes......especially when its covered by bull crap. Bull crap is easy to find, stinks like bull crap and is hard to wash off. You learn from it.....first lesson is to steer clear of it by not getting it on you again.😁

Laaz

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Indeed.

lebmung

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  Pocirus is a much better rootstock for its better cold hardiness. Ichang papeda is not much more cold tolerant than yuzu but offers low quality fruits, why should people consider ichang papeda in their hybridization program

Like I said it all depends on your roostock application, it fits for me successfully.
PT is hardy but also goes into full dormancy from November to March. IP on the other hand it's evergreen.
There are many hybrids, including Ichandarins.

Laaz

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I don't sugar coat anything, I'll tell you the truth from my experience & facts. I guess we need a forum here for those that don't want the truth or facts. Wait this all sounds familiar...

Millet

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I let all members pretty much state their opinions, but we all should be pleasant.

lavender87

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I let all members pretty much state their opinions, but we all should be pleasant.


 Thanks Millet. Strongly agreed. There are many ways to correct or implement someone's information. There is freedom of speach, so people can share their experience, opinions. If there is some mis-information, anyone can nicely correct that.

 I've just wondered where you are to not saying a word about harsh comments. This forum is a great place for discussion on the basis of respecting each other.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:52:43 AM by lavender87 »

Ilya11

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Lavender87,
For the last 3 years I gently and patiently  was trying to correct the tons of fake prophetic statements.
 I was doing this because they  always will be on the net and can  mislead  very many  people.
I understand that it is a lot of fun to generate such texts, but it is incredibly irresponsible  and destructive.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Lavender87,
For the last 3 years I gently and patiently  was trying to correct the tons of fake prophetic statements.
 I was doing this because they  always will be on the net and can  mislead  very many  people.
I understand that it is a lot of fun to generate such texts, but it is incredibly irresponsible  and destructive.

  I understood it now. Later in this forum people should clearly stated what considered a personal experience or opinion from what being facts with cited publications or proofs. If someone shares something regarding their personal experience, it is good to keep a note. Thanks Ilya11 for clarification.

Bomand

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Here is a truth:  No one knows everything. I have been into citrus for many years. I can and do learn new things all the time. Some of us are placated with the pleasure of learning...unfortunately some of us seem to only get satisfaction from projecting opinions and uneducated guesses as to subject matter. The cure for this is to be educated enough to see false and misleadings statements for what they are. Part of that cure is to avoid people that have consistently led people down a false or cumbersom path....when things get mired in falsehoods, Bomand is like Elvis......he leaves the building.......

SoCal2warm

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
I have an update and can answer that question now.
I grew a seed from an Ichang papeda fruit. (This is the tree in Portland that I have previously described in other posts, not surrounded by any other citrus trees)
This is my first time actually growing Ichang papeda from seed.
I have just checked on it right now, and the a little seedling has sprouted up with four little leaves.
But here is the interesting thing: all of those little leaves have absolutely no trace of winged petioles! They are completely single leaves.

This seems very bizarre to me. I've grown numerous different Ichang papeda hybrids from seed before (well, nearly all of them I think, Yuzu, N1tri, numerous Ichangquat seedlings). They all had at least some winged petiole on the leaves when the seedling first sprouted.

All of my very small Ichang papeda cuttings that I grew also sprouted leaves with fairly big sized winged petioles, even though the cutting may have been very small (like 3 inches).

So it appears you might be right. This is very strange.

This is only one seedling, so I can't say for sure whether this would be a pattern.


And I am absolutely sure this seed came from an Ichang papeda fruit. I have not very recently grown anything else from seed, so there is no possibility there could have been an accidental mix-up.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 02:44:46 AM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
I have an update and can answer that question now.
I grew a seed from an Ichang papeda fruit. (This is the tree in Portland that I have previously described in other posts, not surrounded by any other citrus trees)
This is my first time actually growing Ichang papeda from seed.
I have just checked on it right now, and the a little seedling has sprouted up with four little leaves.
But here is the interesting thing: all of those little leaves have absolutely no trace of winged petioles! They are completely single leaves.

This seems very bizarre to me. I've grown numerous different Ichang papeda hybrids from seed before (well, nearly all of them I think, Yuzu, N1tri, numerous Ichangquat seedlings). They all had at least some winged petiole on the leaves when the seedling first sprouted.

All of my very small Ichang papeda cuttings that I grew also sprouted leaves with fairly big sized winged petioles, even though the cutting may have been very small (like 3 inches).

So it appears you might be right. This is very strange.

This is only one seedling, so I can't say for sure whether this would be a pattern.


And I am absolutely sure this seed came from an Ichang papeda fruit. I have not very recently grown anything else from seed, so there is no possibility there could have been an accidental mix-up.

It's nirmal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.

SoCal2warm

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It's normal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.
Due to where the tree is, it's impossible for it to be a hybrid, I would think. The tree is in a very large sprawling botanical garden in Portland, Basically in the middle of a small forest on a mountain top in the middle of the city. There are no other citrus trees nearby. Normal citrus trees cannot be grown outside this far north. That Ichang papeda tree itself is already a rare specimen, in this region of the country.
There are not any houses close by either. I do not see how it could have been pollinated by another citrus tree.

lebmung

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It's normal for a seedling let it grew few cm high and then it should have that double leaves. If it doesn't maybe you have a hybrid.
As far as I remember IP is highly monoembryonic, that is not to type from seed.
Due to where the tree is, it's impossible for it to be a hybrid, I would think. The tree is in a very large sprawling botanical garden in Portland, Basically in the middle of a small forest on a mountain top in the middle of the city. There are no other citrus trees nearby. Normal citrus trees cannot be grown outside this far north. That Ichang papeda tree itself is already a rare specimen, in this region of the country.
There are not any houses close by either. I do not see how it could have been pollinated by another citrus tree.

First sets of leaves are monofoliate, wait for the tree to grow more. If I were you I would take cuttings for the tree. They root very easily.


Laaz

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He has three or four different usernames he goes by on various forums, just a heads up for dis-information.

Laaz

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He loves to troll my forum...


SoCal2warm

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Swingle believed the species now known as Khasi papeda was a subtype of Ichang papeda. However, it is now classified as a different (but closely related) species.
quote from the old article here:

" This species [Ichang papeda] is cultivated in the vicinity of Ichang, and it bears a very large lemonlike fruit that is of sufficiently good quality to cause it to be shipped to markets several hundred miles distant.
In China this species occurs in an undoubted wild state in the hills of the Upper Yangtze Valley from Ichang west and southwest in Hupeh, Szechwan, and Kwichow, growing at altitudes of 1,500 to 6,000 feet. In Assam a closely related but slightly different form is found at an altitude of 5,000 to 6,000 feet in the Khasi Hills.
The species thus ranges over a region at least 1,500 miles long and some 500 miles wide. "

Journal of Agricultural Research, Department of Agriculture, Volume 1, Washington D.C., October 10, 1913
Citrus ichangensis, A promising, hardy, new species from Southwestern China and Assam, article by Walter T. Swingle

SoCal2warm

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I seem to recall something about Kaffir lime likely being a hybrid of Khasi papeda, with sour mandarin or sour orange, but cannot remember now, and I don't feel like going back trying to search through my old posts and taking the effort to do the research now. Could be wrong about that.

Take a look at Fig. 3, page 1161.

Notice how C. hystrix (kaffir lime) shares a close relationship to C. latipes (khasi papeda), while C. aurantifolia (key lime) is somewhere in-between, in relation.

Also notice that while C. limon (lemon) is on the branch offshoot, C. medica (citron) is actually very far away.
I believe what this is showing is sour orange ancestry.

The diagram seems to indicate that C. hystrix is closer in relation to limes, while C. latipes is further away, and closer to other normal citrus.

That would be the complete opposite of what would be expected if C. hystrix were a hybrid of C. latipes and sour orange.

Theoretical and Applied Genetics (2000) 100:11551166, "Citrus phylogeny and genetic origin of important species
as investigated by molecular markers", E. Nicolosi
http://citruspages.free.fr/Citrus_phylogeny.pdf

So this does suggest that I may have been wrong, in that earlier post.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 11:48:29 PM by SoCal2warm »