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Author Topic: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes  (Read 286 times)

Francis_Eric

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Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« on: October 06, 2019, 11:49:51 PM »
Can someone that understands Genetics explain this to me
I've read the florida keys has a Persimmon with 30 chromosomes

I know if Our northern Persimmon (90) gets pollinated by a Kentucky one (60)
they are seedless (I know alittle about meosis, and that)

but what if a 30 chromosomes gets doubled would that go with a kentucky one.

All I read is the northern ones are better tasting ,  and the florida ones are not as good
(I read that alot about other things , and I usually disagree
Like American persimmons are no good when I love them)

Francis_Eric

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2019, 11:52:52 PM »
Here is a link
https://www.intechopen.com/books/breeding-and-health-benefits-of-fruit-and-nut-crops/genetic-diversity-and-breeding-of-persimmon

In the genus Diospyros, there are species and varieties having diploid (2n = 2x = 30), tetraploid (2n = 4x = 60), hexaploid (2n = 6x = 90), nonaploid (2n = 9x =135) and dodecaploid (2n = 12x = 180) chromosome number. Therefore, it is thought that the basic chromosome number of the genus Diospyros is 15 [9, 12]. The chromosome numbers of some wild species of genus Diospyros (D. oleifera, D. glandulosa, D. confertiflora, D. discolorare, D. ehretioides, D. lycioides, D. mollis, D. rhodocalyx and D. sumatrana) are 2n = 30, except for 2n = 60 for D. rhombifolia and 2n = 90 for D. ebenum [13, 14, 15]. D. kaki L. is a hexaploid (2n = 6x = 90). However, octoploid (2n = 8x = 120) cultivars such as Hasshu and nonaploid (2n = 9x =135) cultivars such as ‘Hiratanenashi’ and ‘Tonewase’ have also been reported [14, 15, 16]. On the other hand, D. virginiana has two karyotypes with 2n = 60 and 90 [15, 17], while D. lotus is diploid (2n = 2x =30) [14].




I think it would be interesting to take a Florida Persimmon Breed it with a early type (kentucky 60 type),
 and see if your native types would be early since we get alot less sun.

Oolie

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2019, 02:58:13 AM »
The selection of triploids for seedlessness requires that the seed come from the fruit with more chromosomes, in this case you could pollinate a Kentucky one with your keys one, and if successful, a seedless triploid would be likely.

Francis_Eric

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2019, 06:34:00 AM »
From what I understand if a 90 persimmon gets pollinated by a Kentucky 60
seedless fruit comes about so no offspring

Wouldn't KY 60 with a Keywest 30 be sterile and no offspring too.

Do you mean double the chromes on a Key west to 60

but if it is 60, and 60 a fertile offspring would be the result .

I am actually wondering what if a 30, and a 90 chromosones one breed what would happen
sterile or not

I understand somewhat , was really good at math in school but not so much now
wish someone could explain some of the examples that normally look like they wouldn't work, but do.

I will have some examples when I get home

By the way the bar right by the hotel is named Keywest bar, and grill maybe subconcious why I asked

https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/ww0503.htm#triploid

Oops wrong link Modifying days later
https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/hybrids1.htm
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 04:14:11 AM by Francis_Eric »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2019, 04:16:56 PM »
Here is a link
https://www.intechopen.com/books/breeding-and-health-benefits-of-fruit-and-nut-crops/genetic-diversity-and-breeding-of-persimmon

In the genus Diospyros, there are species and varieties having diploid (2n = 2x = 30), tetraploid (2n = 4x = 60), hexaploid (2n = 6x = 90), nonaploid (2n = 9x =135) and dodecaploid (2n = 12x = 180) chromosome number. Therefore, it is thought that the basic chromosome number of the genus Diospyros is 15 [9, 12]. The chromosome numbers of some wild species of genus Diospyros (D. oleifera, D. glandulosa, D. confertiflora, D. discolorare, D. ehretioides, D. lycioides, D. mollis, D. rhodocalyx and D. sumatrana) are 2n = 30, except for 2n = 60 for D. rhombifolia and 2n = 90 for D. ebenum [13, 14, 15]. D. kaki L. is a hexaploid (2n = 6x = 90). However, octoploid (2n = 8x = 120) cultivars such as Hasshu and nonaploid (2n = 9x =135) cultivars such as ‘Hiratanenashi’ and ‘Tonewase’ have also been reported [14, 15, 16]. On the other hand, D. virginiana has two karyotypes with 2n = 60 and 90 [15, 17], while D. lotus is diploid (2n = 2x =30) [14].




I think it would be interesting to take a Florida Persimmon Breed it with a early type (kentucky 60 type),
 and see if your native types would be early since we get alot less sun.
You get a lot more sun than in Florida because the more northern you are,the longer the day in the summer .
Tropics have 12 hours day/12 hours night continuously but me on 45N i get 16 hours of day during the summer and 8 of night.
On north pole there is no night during the summer especially at the peak of summer.

pineislander

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2019, 06:41:14 PM »
You get a lot more sun than in Florida because the more northern you are,the longer the day in the summer .
Tropics have 12 hours day/12 hours night continuously but me on 45N i get 16 hours of day during the summer and 8 of night. On north pole there is no night during the summer especially at the peak of summer.

A place with desert climate might get many more hours sunshine than one at the same latitude but very cloudy.
Sunshine duration per year takes into account average cloudiness and is the average over several years.

This table shows for the following cities:
Chicago, IL: 2508 hours
Louisville, KY: 2514 hours
Miami, FL : 3154 hours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration#North_and_Central_America

SeaWalnut

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2019, 07:39:54 PM »
You get a lot more sun than in Florida because the more northern you are,the longer the day in the summer .
Tropics have 12 hours day/12 hours night continuously but me on 45N i get 16 hours of day during the summer and 8 of night. On north pole there is no night during the summer especially at the peak of summer.

A place with desert climate might get many more hours sunshine than one at the same latitude but very cloudy.
Sunshine duration per year takes into account average cloudiness and is the average over several years.

This table shows for the following cities:
Chicago, IL: 2508 hours
Louisville, KY: 2514 hours
Miami, FL : 3154 hours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration#North_and_Central_America
True but your hours comparison is per whole year and im talking only about the summer.
During summer,in Romania ,on 45 N i get @ 30 percent more light than you get in Florida.
During winter its the opposite,the day becomes shorter and night longer .
That doesnt take into account clouds and mountains just how long its the sun shining in a day= 4 hours more here than on the equator.

Francis_Eric

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2019, 04:11:38 AM »

Oops wrong link Modifying days later
https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/hybrids1.htm

Mistakenly Posted the wrong link

If someone reads My original message , they will see the correct link on my original post,
because  these things can be read years later.

Oolie

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Re: Florida Persimmon 30 chromosomes
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2019, 01:21:42 PM »

Oops wrong link Modifying days later
https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/hybrids1.htm

Mistakenly Posted the wrong link

If someone reads My original message , they will see the correct link on my original post,
because  these things can be read years later.

Much better now. That covers the process in accurate detail, but I wouldn't attempt without caution, colchicine is a known mutagen, and exposure can lead to cancer. There are other methods as well, but that is the common laboratory method.

The aforementioned ploidy variations probably have more to do with natural selection, but you can use it to your advantage to produce a seedless triploid variety using the procedure in the link you originally posted, use the pollen of the plant of smaller chromosome count to pollinate the plant of double the number of chromosomes for viable seeds.

 

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