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Author Topic: Tree's and floodings  (Read 4181 times)

bangkok

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Tree's and floodings
« on: November 27, 2012, 06:03:22 PM »
I got an idea from the thread about Annona's.

My Annona sugarapple will come next week and i m thinking about grafting it on the rootstock from the pond apple. I read that this rootstock can stand floodings which Annona cannot.

My mango NDM also survived the floodings from last year, it was in 60 cm (2feet) of water during 3 weeks. Mango tree's that had been in about 2 metre (7 feet) water all died is what i saw.

I am also growing a jackfruit tree which cannot stand waterflooding. Is there a jackfruit rootstock that can stand floodings?

Are there other fruits that can easy stand floodings for some weeks?

I think many people in Thailand will like to know these things because the floodings might be back because the government didn't do anything yet to prevent them.

fruitlovers

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 08:09:51 AM »
I read elsewhere, but now forget where, that most mangos can stand periodic flooding for quite some long time.
Oscar

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »
That is a great question for your location.  I hope you can find answers here.  I would assume that any fruit tree in the Amazon or other flooding deltas would withstand long periods of flooding.  All long periods of flooding are not equal though, with moving water from overflowing rivers being easier to withstand than stagnant water in an unintended pond.

Tim

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 12:28:06 PM »
I don't recall us losing a single tree in Vietnam to annual flood (monsoon season May-Oct).  Water level is high but moves very rapidly, they also last 1-2 weeks.  Like RedDurian, I think duration + stagnancy = death.
Tim

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 01:50:32 PM »
remember Ohiojays horror story and photos?

the surviving plants seemed to be guavas.

guavas, Barbados cherry, jaboticaba, miracle fruit, inga species, palm species, like Euterpe and Bactris sp, and many more!

best of luck, don't let flood waters intimidate you.

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 02:00:22 PM »
forgot!

rollinia deliciosa/mucosa is resisant to flood!

so I've come to find


fruitlovers

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 02:28:05 PM »
I also don't remember any Floridian posting about losing any mango trees during last flooding there due to hurricane. I believe Harry's place was flooded the longest, but i forget for how many days?
Oscar

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 02:29:33 PM »
yeah...flooding is one thing, but being completely under water for weeks is a whole new ballgame.  Now the mango trees at the folks' home recovered whereas the jackfruit did not. 

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 03:09:46 PM »
yeah...flooding is one thing, but being completely under water for weeks is a whole new ballgame.  Now the mango trees at the folks' home recovered whereas the jackfruit did not.

that's a ball game that myrciaria is up for participating in!

so I've illustrated by submerging plants for almost 4 months before they died!

HMHausman

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 04:54:37 PM »
I also don't remember any Floridian posting about losing any mango trees during last flooding there due to hurricane. I believe Harry's place was flooded the longest, but i forget for how many days?

I forget how many days also......but I remember it being way too darned long of a time.  I think maybe about a week.  No mangoes or lychees were lost.  The only casualties were in the annona family.  I lost my rollinia seedling, a Gefner atemoya and a Red skinned Sugar Apple seedling.

Edited to correct Red flesh to red skin sugar apple
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 08:24:13 PM by HMHausman »
Harry
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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 07:58:51 PM »
Perhaps the mango trees in 2m of water would have survived on a rootstock of Mangifera quadrifida, a tree I know next to nothing about other than that it is found on "inundated land".

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
Flood killed a rollinia?

wow.

maybe I'm mistaken and they're more sensitive than I know of.

I had a seedling sitting in water for months and it loved it.

BMc

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 09:54:31 PM »
There are some durio sp that have root nodes and can breathe underwater for extended periods which would be useful as a rootstock for durians in flood prone areas.

Graft your annonas onto pond apple for stagnant water tolerance.

Garcinias dont mind being flooded for considerable periods. The big 'Achahcha' farm here was 1-2m depp during the big wet not long ago and it resulted in a bumper crop of fruit, though it was a bit washed out in flavour... Every other tree crop nearby was wiped out.

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 10:00:25 PM »
yes!

many of the garcinia must be flood tolerant!

I've seen several species that produce long tap roots that stay extremely saturated for over a month.

species like,

vleerackerii
intermedia
brasiliensis
xanthochymous
and more

fruitlovers

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 07:21:21 AM »
Perhaps the mango trees in 2m of water would have survived on a rootstock of Mangifera quadrifida, a tree I know next to nothing about other than that it is found on "inundated land".


There are types of regular mango that can survive flooding for several months. Short term flooding of 10-20 days actually is beneficial to mangos in calcerous soils as it improves micro nutrient uptake. Here is a very good paper describing: Responses of Tropical and Subtropical trees to Flooding in Calcerous Soils. The study was done in Florida. Conclusion is that mangos and starfruit are moderately resistant to flooding. The annonas and avocado are susceptible to flooding: ]http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/41/3/549.full.pdf[url][/url]
Oscar

bangkok

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 09:59:44 AM »
Annona reticulata  and squamosa are not resistant to floodings but muriculata (soursop or guanabana) is very resistant.

you can read it here: http://www.fshs.org/Proceedings/Password%20Protected/1998%20Vol.%20111/317-319%20(NUNEZ-ELISEA).pdf
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 10:03:17 AM by bangkok »

Odenwald

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2020, 12:16:46 PM »
I had flooding Florida Zone 9b back in September and now again after Hurricane Eta. All the trees were under water for a few days, before the water drained away.  The peaches and nectarines did not like the wet conditions and I will have to see if they live after this latest flooding.  In my wettest area I had a Hog Plum, Neem, Barbados Cherry, bananas, Noni, Starfruit and Java Plum.  This area had standing water for 3 weeks. The Hog Plum lost all its leaves and I had to move it to a drier location, (it's now got new leaves), whereas the others were okay and the Java Plum actually thrived and increased in size.   

Jagmanjoe

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2020, 03:26:07 PM »
We received almost 6" of rain between yesterday and this morning in Lakeland, FL and I also had issues back in September.  We bought the home about a year ago and thought the property was high and dry.  I planted 9 mango trees, 2 peach trees, and a Cara Cara orange tree.  Then the rains came and the trees were under water for weeks on end.  We definitely lost one peach tree and might have also lost the second one as it does not have any leaves on it.  When I scrape a limb on the second peach tree there is still green underneath so I am hopeful that it will recover.

I have modified the areas around the trees as best I could with 10 inch border that is buried half way in the ground and have mulched heavily leaving a well around the base of the tree.  If it rains to the point that we have heavy standing water there, I plan to use a small pump to get the water out and hopefully keep it at bay to some degree with the mulch and the border.  I did mound up the area where the replaced peach tree was planted also to try to keep it from getting too wet.  Actually, the mango trees seem to have fared reasonably well considering and, I am hoping that once they are more established, any small amounts of standing water will not be harmful.  If it is still an issue next year, I will have to become more creative.

Hopefully storms like Eta are behind us for a while!

Gone tropo

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2020, 06:06:31 PM »
bangkok i will have some answers for you over the coming wet season in regards to how mangosteen, pulasan, rambutan and jabotica handle flooding.  My property backs onto a creek and here in Nth QLD australia we get a huge wet season.  Most of these plants will have 8ft + of water over the top of them in the coming few months, i will let you know how they fare.  I will eventually be planting many other various fruit trees in this area I will get to the bottom of what will and wont survive underwater.

sunny

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2020, 01:32:14 AM »
What i have seen is that Mango can survive a flooding of some weeks. They aren't happy with it but survive....

What amazes me more is that a large plumeria can also survive flooding for some weeks. Most of them died after a flooding here but this red flowered one survived.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2020, 06:50:58 AM »
I had flooding Florida Zone 9b back in September and now again after Hurricane Eta. All the trees were under water for a few days, before the water drained away.  The peaches and nectarines did not like the wet conditions and I will have to see if they live after this latest flooding.  In my wettest area I had a Hog Plum, Neem, Barbados Cherry, bananas, Noni, Starfruit and Java Plum.  This area had standing water for 3 weeks. The Hog Plum lost all its leaves and I had to move it to a drier location, (it's now got new leaves), whereas the others were okay and the Java Plum actually thrived and increased in size.   

I watch some of you growers on YouTube.  I see you and flying fox fruits have some un mowed wild areas where the plants grow better and look healthier than other trees shown in the manicured lawn areas.

We use to have all the same problems, I see you have in your videos.  Mowing grass short with heavy machinery is undoubtedly the cause of your compaction issues or ponding.  Allowing the grass and weeds to grow out and following the 5 soil health principles, if followed, will fix this.  Since you were dealing with a cow pasture before mowing, it should repair quickly.  In most cases it does fix rather quickly once you stay off of it. 

Tall weeds and grass do not compete with your fruit trees for resources needed to grow.  I plant 3Ē seed started fruit trees directly into 2í tall grass no problems.  The ecosystem services or life gained is mutually beneficial too the new life and your life and especially the life for your fruit trees.

Biological systems in Florida work amazingly well. It really surprises me that more people have not figured this out.  The more water the more soil building and plant growth you will get.  Our system has been thriving with the non stop wet tropical system we have been receiving this year.









People think if you have a large ďmotherĒ tree it will protect your little tree.  Your little tree in Florida needs the mother cover, untouched grass and some crap.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 08:12:44 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

Saone

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2020, 08:33:57 AM »
I don't recall us losing a single tree in Vietnam to annual flood (monsoon season May-Oct).  Water level is high but moves very rapidly, they also last 1-2 weeks.  Like RedDurian, I think duration + stagnancy = death.

You in Vietnam? And just had my land and house flooded from the bug storms in the center a few weeks ago. Several newer trees died from the high water. Heard jackfruit don't like water logging.

Saone

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2020, 08:37:25 AM »
There are some durio sp that have root nodes and can breathe underwater for extended periods which would be useful as a rootstock for durians in flood prone areas.


Graft your annonas onto pond apple for stagnant water tolerance.

Garcinias dont mind being flooded for considerable periods. The big 'Achahcha' farm here was 1-2m depp during the big wet not long ago and it resulted in a bumper crop of fruit, though it was a bit washed out in flavour... Every other tree crop nearby was wiped out.

How you like the achacha? When they open the borders again gonna try and get my aussie friend to bring me some here in Vietnam.

Odenwald

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2020, 03:38:24 PM »
Thank you Frog Valley Farm I always find wisdom in your comments and will think about more wild areas, but Iím also going to dig some swales.  Jagmanjoe hang in there. It was worse thus year than last year.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2020, 06:16:02 PM »
Thank you Frog Valley Farm I always find wisdom in your comments and will think about more wild areas, but Iím also going to dig some swales.  Jagmanjoe hang in there. It was worse thus year than last year.
When I started planting here I mowed religiously and had neat mulched circles around each tree.  It looked exactly like your place.  I planted 100s of 3 gal grafted trees mulched with hay, wood chips, cow manure.  We always had standing water everywhere after rains and it seemed like zero growing results on too much stuff.  I had been taking a bunch of soil health classes and it eventually clicked and I then decided I would make a type of swale with logs and let the grass grow in that area with logs just to catch the water.  I soon noticed that all the trees with the tall grass around them started growing and the trees I mowed near didnít grow so I stopped mowing except edges and paths.  I also discovered that in problem areas if I intercropped more trees and crops like ginger that all trees did better.  No more huge areas of standing water even after 4Ē today.  Anyway good luck with your project, I look forward to seeing your farm evolve.

As soon as I stopped mowing I was canceled by homeowners insurance, and questioned by all why I stopped taking care of my trees. Uh, because it works the trees donít die and it controls the heavy rains we get which makes things grow here.  Lol

Oh I tried Achacha for the first time, yesterday.  It was unsolicited surprise that came in mail with 5 from a TFF member.  I liked it a whole lot, as much as Mangosteen. Now if I could only get my 100s of  Achacha seedlings producing, 2021? Thank you TFF members you are, simply the best.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 06:42:59 PM by Frog Valley Farm »

Tommyng

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2020, 05:24:43 PM »
I have a plot of land that gets flooded easily, the mango trees are planted in this area and are very tolerant of the flooding, that can last for about a month sometimes. Caimitos are planted near the edge of the flood zone and they do ok also. The Citrus trees survive but are in poor health. Jackfruits have died so have lychees.
Donít rush, take time and enjoy life and food.

Galatians522

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2020, 11:21:43 PM »
Although they are not "fruit trees," I have been amazed at how much water muscadine grapes can take and still produce fruit.

Francis_Eric

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2020, 01:58:52 AM »
Do you find the flooded fruits , produce fruit later can be good extending the season.

I was going to ask before you brought up Muscadine grapes ,
but the grapes being submerged in clayish soil I see  that with the wild grapes here . (vitis riparia) river bank grape)
What is your experience Galatians with grapes ? or are they all flooded .

I think late past 2 weeks, but cannot remember exactly I think like a month later somewhere around there.

Before you brought it up I was curious what Frog valley Farm thought

Do the Mango tree's , and other fruit delay fruit ripening ?
if so I think that can be a good thing to extend the fresh fruit season.

Quote
When I started planting here I mowed religiously and had neat mulched circles around each tree.  It looked exactly like your place.  I planted 100s of 3 gal grafted trees mulched with hay, wood chips, cow manure.  We always had standing water everywhere after rains and it seemed like zero growing results on too much stuff.  I had been taking a bunch of soil health classes and it eventually clicked and I then decided I would make a type of swale with logs and let the grass grow in that area with logs just to catch the water.  I soon noticed that all the trees with the tall grass around them started growing and the trees I mowed near didnít grow so I stopped mowing except edges and paths.  I also discovered that in problem areas if I intercropped more trees and crops like ginger that all trees did better.  No more huge areas of standing water even after 4Ē today.  Anyway good luck with your project, I look forward to seeing your farm evolve.

As soon as I stopped mowing I was canceled by homeowners insurance, and questioned by all why I stopped taking care of my trees. Uh, because it works the trees donít die and it controls the heavy rains we get which makes things grow here.  Lol


OH edit, and with wild grapes there is research to back that up someplace
that water logged vines can ripen fruit  later ..
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 02:03:00 AM by Francis_Eric »

Galatians522

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2020, 08:37:40 AM »
Clutivated muscadines (vitis rotundifolia) are not native to my part of the state. When I pick wild florida muscadines (vitis munsonia) the ones on low swampy soil ripen first. Sometimes as early as the end of May. The high ground grapes typically ripen later in the season, and I have picked them as late as November in xeric locations. However, I don't know if this is a direct result of flooding because the low ground grapes tend to bloom first, too. Flooded grapes don't taste as sweet, so the ones on low ground have a better chance of passing on their genetics if they can ripen before the summer rains start (typically in June). Just my theory from personal observations with no scientific study to back it up.  :P

Francis_Eric

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2020, 09:27:11 AM »
Well different species I suppose to many variables to think all grape  (species) fruit is harvested later if flooded.
I had a concord in my alley bloomed early had fruit later
then a concord (tasted like) fruit bloom later but it set fruit early. (50 feet away same (water) conditions )

Just a observation with some wild grapes delaying ripening in a water logged area.

Francis_Eric

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Re: Tree's and floodings
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2020, 10:14:39 AM »
I meant above that there are many variables in genetics
 even with similar concords grapes  in same area preform completely different

So do not doubt what you say Galatians
but also I Wanted to ask what others thought about what they observed so thank you .
The species around here I noticed vines near by ripened early, but vines in the ditches being water logged nearby ripened later.
(this is not Like I have been going around taking notes though)

Thank you Frog Valley Farm I always find wisdom in your comments and will think about more wild areas, but Iím also going to dig some swales.  Jagmanjoe hang in there. It was worse thus year than last year.
When I started planting here I mowed religiously and had neat mulched circles around each tree.  It looked exactly like your place.  I planted 100s of 3 gal grafted trees mulched with hay, wood chips, cow manure.  We always had standing water everywhere after rains and it seemed like zero growing results on too much stuff.  I had been taking a bunch of soil health classes and it eventually clicked and I then decided I would make a type of swale with logs and let the grass grow in that area with logs just to catch the water.  I soon noticed that all the trees with the tall grass around them started growing and the trees I mowed near didnít grow so I stopped mowing except edges and paths.  I also discovered that in problem areas if I intercropped more trees and crops like ginger that all trees did better.  No more huge areas of standing water even after 4Ē today.  Anyway good luck with your project, I look forward to seeing your farm evolve.

As soon as I stopped mowing I was canceled by homeowners insurance, and questioned by all why I stopped taking care of my trees. Uh, because it works the trees donít die and it controls the heavy rains we get which makes things grow here.  Lol

Oh I tried Achacha for the first time, yesterday.  It was unsolicited surprise that came in mail with 5 from a TFF member.  I liked it a whole lot, as much as Mangosteen. Now if I could only get my 100s of  Achacha seedlings producing, 2021? Thank you TFF members you are, simply the best.

Here is a article that explains why leaving some gasses could hold the fungi in place (mycorizzae )

Copied from here
https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/gardening-techniques/mycorrhizal-fungi-zm0z14aszkin

Quote
Although we think of fungi being most at home in deep, dank forests, theyíre surprisingly abundant in open shrublands and prairies, too. The outer walls of hyphae contain gluey compounds that cause fine particles of earth to clump together on and around the threads. This process is a major factor in building soil structure and making the ground less vulnerable to erosion. Mycelial networks also play a valuable role in sequestering carbon within microclusters of filaments. They limit their partner plantsí exposure to heavy metals, such as lead, zinc and cadmium, by keeping those elements bound to the hyphaeís sticky sheath. At high latitudes and high altitudes, mycorrhizal fungi scrounge nutrients from cold, rocky soils. In boggy regions, the hyphae buffer plant partners from the high acid content of peaty soils. In saline ground, the hyphae help safeguard their partners from high salt concentrations. Mycorrhizae can also protect plants from pests and diseases.

To learn more about the structure and evolution of mycorrhizal fungi, plus its symbiotic relationship with plants, lichens and humans, see
https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/nature/symbiotic-relationship-zm0z14aszkin
 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 10:16:17 AM by Francis_Eric »

 

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