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Author Topic: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??  (Read 2209 times)

franklazar26

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Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« on: October 26, 2019, 10:56:19 AM »
Hello!

I just finally went big rather than going cheapo and purchasing 5$ grow lights at the hardware store. I purchased a WHOSLED 600W that puts out around 1200 umol/s/m2, and a smaller 2FT T5 bulb set for my seedlings.. How long should I run these lights for the maximum yield of growth while still not racking up a huge energy bill? Looking for opinions! I also have a germination mat underneath both keeping the roots at a good 78-83 degrees F. The surrounding temps go anywhere from 68-76F throughout the day into the night (may get a little warmer with the more powerful lights I'm putting in). What are your guys' opinions? I currently have over 50 citrus seedlings coming consisting of trifoliate, FD, and swindle, along with some misc dwarf poms and coffee.

Thanks for any input!

usirius

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2019, 03:46:18 PM »
Hello franlazar26, 600 watts for which area to shine? And do you also know the lumen number? I would hang the lamp at least 1-2 meters above the plants to avoid burns. If you cultivate the plants outdoors in summer, you can now go back with the light ON time (day length) even in artificial light. But you can leave 1 hour longer in the morning and 1 hour longer in the evening, so that you have in any case more madness as with a low-light wintering. Of course, if you still have coffee with you...then 11-12 hours of day length (light on time) would not be bad.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

franklazar26

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 10:08:08 PM »
Hello franlazar26, 600 watts for which area to shine? And do you also know the lumen number? I would hang the lamp at least 1-2 meters above the plants to avoid burns. If you cultivate the plants outdoors in summer, you can now go back with the light ON time (day length) even in artificial light. But you can leave 1 hour longer in the morning and 1 hour longer in the evening, so that you have in any case more madness as with a low-light wintering. Of course, if you still have coffee with you...then 11-12 hours of day length (light on time) would not be bad.
The pack I have says 8268.6lm. Around 1200 PAR from 18" in height (right around .5m I believe). Note I forgot to say, they do not receive any natural sunlight! They're kept in a closet currently so the light is all the light they will have. I am going to start it at 12 hours a day and go from there though I think!

Thanks!

Millet

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 10:35:46 PM »
I use a Metal Halide light.  When I light a citrus tree, I turn the light on near sunset, and turn the light off at 10:30 (when I go to bed).  I put the light 12" above the tree.

Ilya11

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2019, 04:25:39 AM »
In artificial enclosure with white reflecting paper I keep 18 hours of light per day. For the seedlings around 5000 lumen at the soil level is sufficient for growth( measured by Lux Meter Level application). Make sure that temperature do not exceed 30C.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

franklazar26

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2019, 05:44:09 PM »
Here is my light, I am choosing to keep it on about 11 hours. From a cool test run today of 10 hours it made the temps around go from 67 to 80 within that time frame, also it was with all lights going, at full blast. It has the ability to switch on and off certain lighting (blue, red, IR) Again it will be enclosed in this closet the entire time with no natural light. I am also choosing to change the cycle of lighting while I sleep as the wife hates the closet illuminated so brightly by this new intensity haha. So it will be on from approx 8:00pm till 7:00 am. It is a very intense light and my plants seemed to like the distance. The mango leaf even grew 1 cm today alone! (I measured). I am wondering if you guys think I should put in a small fan to create better air circulation? I did not use the fan in the background at all, it is a little too powerful for the small closet. I dont want the heat to become hazardous. Also would I be able to get away with just running blue to keep the power consumption as well as heat down? All I have are saplings and small trees! Thank you guys for the help and tips!







SeaWalnut

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 05:53:46 PM »
I use a Metal Halide light.  When I light a citrus tree, I turn the light on near sunset, and turn the light off at 10:30 (when I go to bed).  I put the light 12" above the tree.
Metal halide light is the best but consumes a lot of current.
Second after MH are the T8 tubes ,then T5 and the last with the worst type of light are the LEDs ( any of them).
I wonder if the sodium lamps have a good spectrum for plant growth.They are somewhat like MH but contain only sodium and they give a lot of light .
Xenon lamps are better than even MH and they give a light per watt just like LEDs.The downside is their too expensive , not easy to find replacement bulbs and the bulbs usually last @10 months lighted 12 hours a day.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 06:00:08 PM »
Here is my light, I am choosing to keep it on about 11 hours. From a cool test run today of 10 hours it made the temps around go from 67 to 80 within that time frame, also it was with all lights going, at full blast. It has the ability to switch on and off certain lighting (blue, red, IR) Again it will be enclosed in this closet the entire time with no natural light. I am also choosing to change the cycle of lighting while I sleep as the wife hates the closet illuminated so brightly by this new intensity haha. So it will be on from approx 8:00pm till 7:00 am. It is a very intense light and my plants seemed to like the distance. The mango leaf even grew 1 cm today alone! (I measured). I am wondering if you guys think I should put in a small fan to create better air circulation? I did not use the fan in the background at all, it is a little too powerful for the small closet. I dont want the heat to become hazardous. Also would I be able to get away with just running blue to keep the power consumption as well as heat down? All I have are saplings and small trees! Thank you guys for the help and tips!






Plants use verry little blue .Use red or the pink one and not blue at all.The pink light you call IR is actually a UV wannabee( UVA) and that has both blue and red in it.
LEDS cant output real UV like UVC  and UVB because these lights are the ones that cause sunburn and would destroy the plastic LEDs in just a few hours.

franklazar26

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2019, 06:10:56 PM »
Here is my light, I am choosing to keep it on about 11 hours. From a cool test run today of 10 hours it made the temps around go from 67 to 80 within that time frame, also it was with all lights going, at full blast. It has the ability to switch on and off certain lighting (blue, red, IR) Again it will be enclosed in this closet the entire time with no natural light. I am also choosing to change the cycle of lighting while I sleep as the wife hates the closet illuminated so brightly by this new intensity haha. So it will be on from approx 8:00pm till 7:00 am. It is a very intense light and my plants seemed to like the distance. The mango leaf even grew 1 cm today alone! (I measured). I am wondering if you guys think I should put in a small fan to create better air circulation? I did not use the fan in the background at all, it is a little too powerful for the small closet. I dont want the heat to become hazardous. Also would I be able to get away with just running blue to keep the power consumption as well as heat down? All I have are saplings and small trees! Thank you guys for the help and tips!






Plants use verry little blue .Use red or the pink one and not blue at all.The pink light you call IR is actually a UV wannabee( UVA) and that has both blue and red in it.
LEDS cant output real UV like UVC  and UVB because these lights are the ones that cause sunburn and would destroy the plastic LEDs in just a few hours.

Okay thanks! I thought blue was for vegetative growth and red was for blooming or something on the line of that? But okay, makes sense. So if I were not to want to run all the LEDs at once (purple), to pick one over the other I should run red over blue? My only concern with running purple is that it creates a much higher heat output than if I were to use one or the other.

brian

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 01:01:10 PM »
Is the "600W" light actually 600 Watts, or "600 watt equivalent" which is common with CFL and LEDs? 

I recently bought a "1200W equivalent" LED light fixture which the fine print says consumes ~200-250W power.  It was $90 on amazon.  Yours is likely similar if it is LED.  A true 600 watts-consumed LED fixture would likely cost $300+ and I've never actually seen one rated above 1500-watt-equivalent

I don't have any citrus under mine yet, only my wife's cooking herbs and a couple random seedlings I had extras of - lychee and ice cream bean.  They are growing well under the light, but it is too early for me to tell how they compare to the same seedlings in my greenhouse under only natural light.

I have my light running 16hrs a day on a timer, it is in my basement which is around 65F all year.  The light doesn't create enough heat to notice as it is in a wide open area.   200W 16hrs/day is under ten bucks a month in power cost

200Watts = 0.2 kilowatt-hours
power is ~10c kilowatt-hour
30 days a month, 16hrs a day
.200 * .10 * 30 * 16

$9.60
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 01:05:22 PM by brian »

franklazar26

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 01:40:15 PM »
Is the "600W" light actually 600 Watts, or "600 watt equivalent" which is common with CFL and LEDs? 

I recently bought a "1200W equivalent" LED light fixture which the fine print says consumes ~200-250W power.  It was $90 on amazon.  Yours is likely similar if it is LED.  A true 600 watts-consumed LED fixture would likely cost $300+ and I've never actually seen one rated above 1500-watt-equivalent

I don't have any citrus under mine yet, only my wife's cooking herbs and a couple random seedlings I had extras of - lychee and ice cream bean.  They are growing well under the light, but it is too early for me to tell how they compare to the same seedlings in my greenhouse under only natural light.

I have my light running 16hrs a day on a timer, it is in my basement which is around 65F all year.  The light doesn't create enough heat to notice as it is in a wide open area.   200W 16hrs/day is under ten bucks a month in power cost

200Watts = 0.2 kilowatt-hours
power is ~10c kilowatt-hour
30 days a month, 16hrs a day
.200 * .10 * 30 * 16

$9.60

Oh yes, its claimed to be around 124w consumption, although comments have said it consumes more around the 200w at full blast. So far running it 12 hours at night I have seen substantial growth from my seedlings! I am happy with the light overall. But that's not bad in power price either, although I do have a fan going, 2 germination mats, and another LED for my seedlings. Either way, all work great!

brian

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 03:03:53 PM »
Cool, sounds similar to mine.  I am curious how it turns out, if seedlings grow faster this way during the winter I will keep them under lights until spring. 

Millet

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 04:57:23 PM »
I posted some years back about an in ground Dekopon, that was planted as a small grafted starter tree.  I surrounded the tree with silver sided insulation boards just for the light's reflection back onto the tree, heated the soil to 80F (26.6C) with an under ground heating coil, and use a metal halide light from sunset until 10:30PM.  That tree had 5 flushes of growth each year for the next two years.  The tree is now 5-ft. tall and 5-ft. wide, and producing a nice crop.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 04:59:28 PM by Millet »

poncirsguy

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 08:15:21 PM »
I use the cheapest lighting available.  run it for 16-18 hours per day








Millet

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2019, 03:40:33 PM »
Welcome to the citrus forum Poncirsguy.

Bomand

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2019, 07:53:12 PM »
Welcome Poncirusguy. Remember your many post.

Vlad

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2019, 10:40:46 PM »
Steve, how did you attach the overhead lights in the first picture.
Good to see you here on this forum.

poncirsguy

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2020, 05:38:33 PM »
I don't get any notice of new comments or I would have responded much sooner.
I installed a window sill between the upper and lower window that I attach clamp lamps

Both pictures same window


lebmung

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2020, 05:58:09 PM »
I am not so sure if citrus plants need so much care inside the house. With the exception of Key limes.
I overwintered them at very low temperatures and dark 1-7C and now they do just fine so no energy consumption needed. Also don't need to water them too much maybe 1-2 times a month, so not much work do to for 3 months.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2020, 09:45:12 PM »
setup: two 13 watt ("100 watt equivalent") LED bulbs for a 2x5 ft area, 5000K, constant light
is plenty enough light

white light seems to work better than only red + blue.
red + blue theoretically can achieve higher energy efficiency, but for home project no, because energy efficient bulbs higher effecticiency than cheap quality grow lights.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 09:47:24 PM by SoCal2warm »

Laaz

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2020, 10:09:01 PM »
I use the cheapest light I can get for my seedlings. They grow like weeds...  ;D




lebmung

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2020, 03:46:30 PM »
I use the cheapest light I can get for my seedlings. They grow like weeds...  ;D

you keep the nature close, by your side  :D

Laaz

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2020, 06:47:31 PM »
Indeed.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2020, 10:02:08 PM »
Franklazar,do not use the blue light or use it just a little.
These lamps are made to be used both as a grow light for plants ( blue + verry little red or only red) .
The lamp is also made to be used as an aquarium lamp to grow corals.They are photosynthetic and they use blue light with verry little red( the red gets filtered by the blue water).
So the blue color its to grow corals not to grow plants.You dont need it or you need verry little of it.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2020, 03:40:46 AM »
I've studied this in depth. It is possible for plants to grow under blue light alone but they are not very healthy. It is also possible for plants to grow under only red light, but their growth habit is really stunted. With a lot of red and only a little bit of blue, plants can grow just fine.
Plants grow better under white light than they do under just red + blue. I have absolutely no problem growing under 5000K, they grow great, better than any other special color LED grow lights.
However, I believe that they would grow better still under 5000K white + red. That hasn't been tested.

As for photosynthetic efficiency and wavelength, there are not any peaks, it is a relatively smooth curve. The plant has photosynthetic pigments to be able to transfer other wavelengths to chlorophyll. Theoretically, 660nm and a third as much of 650nm are the best most optimal wavelengths for efficiency, but in reality it doesn't really matter so much. (Those efficiency gains would be trivial compared to other considerations)

Green wavelengths are useful too because they can better and more evenly penetrate to chlorophyll beneath the thin surface layer of the leaf. Which is probably why they grow so good under white light.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2020, 03:49:10 AM »
Also efficiency of the light probably does not matter in practice, since any inefficiency will turn into a little extra heat.
(inefficient lighting is pretty much no less efficient than an electric heater at producing heat. electric conversion to heat is one of the few things that is nearly 100% efficient)

However, heat can lead to faster water loss.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2020, 05:26:40 AM »
Plants ate green so they reflect the green light.Basically they only reflect the green color of the white light that is made of all the colors of the spectrum.
NASA studyed well growing plants with red and blue light and the blue its like 10% at max ,used.
Corals grow their zooxanthelae mostly with blue light because the red color its filtered by the water.The deeper it gets less red .
Also the deep water fish are mainly red because that helps them to camouflage in the darkness.
Deep water jellyfish that are transparent ,have at least the stomack red to camouflage the prey they eat.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2020, 03:51:59 PM »
My theory on why plants are green is because maximum photosynthesis takes place early in the morning or late in the afternoon, or in overcast weather, when there are cooler temperatures to avoid water loss. The plant closes its pores more in the heat of the middle of the day. Cooler temperatures correlate to a higher percentage of red or blue light. Also the plant does not need higher conversion efficiency when there is more light, which correlates to higher ratio of green wavelengths in the middle of a sunny day. Early in the morning, the sun is at more of an angle, passes through more layer of atmosphere, so the spectrum is shifted to longer more red wavelengths.

Millet

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2020, 10:53:15 PM »
Photosynthesis begins at low intensities of light and increases till it is maximum at the brightest time of the day. The amount of light required varies for different plants. Photosynthesis uses maximum up to 1.5 % light in the process and so light is generally not a limiting factor at high intensity. However, the light becomes a limiting factor in low intensity because no matter how much water or CO2 is present, without light photosynthesis cannot occur. At high intensities, the temperature of the plant increases which leads to increased transpiration in the plant. This leads to the closing of the stomata which leads to a reduced CO2 intake. Thus, leading to a reduction and finally stoppage of photosynthesis. Therefore, excessive light inhibits photosynthesis.  (Taken from Topper)

SoCal2warm

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Re: Indoor citrus, Lighting length time and warmth ??
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2020, 12:51:15 AM »
Also to mention, water loss will be much higher from heating caused by light, or heating from a heat mat, than heat that is even and circulating within a plant enclosure.
If the plant is a warmer temperature than the surrounding air, water loss will occur. This is the same principle that freeze drying works through.
Cold air holds less water, so when that air passes over a warm surface, heat is transferred to the air, and along with that heat moisture is carried away because the warmer air can now hold more water vapor.
However, if the warm air is relatively saturated with humidity, and it is not cooler than the temperature of the plant, than it will not carry away much moisture or have a drying effect.

A potential disadvantage of excessive light is that it is effectively beaming heat energy directly onto the leaves. This can put drought stress on a plant.
This is a particular consideration because plants growing in containers have smaller root systems without as much access to water.

 

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