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Author Topic: True To Type  (Read 407 times)

Random341

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True To Type
« on: November 10, 2019, 09:48:47 PM »
Hello Everybody,

So there are a lot of various tropical fruits I want to grow via seed propagation. And I have been constantly coming across the following statements, "seeds of this fruit will not grow true to the parent" & "seeds of this fruit does not grow true to type", which both of course mean the same thing. Yet, I am finding these statements quite frequently on seed vendor sites & on informational sites as well.

So my question is, How true is this?

Is it really the case that you can never grow fruit that is completely identical to the fruit of the parent tree with all aspects considered (color, texture, size, shape, brix level, seed to flesh ratio & taste)? In addition, Is it also the case that the trees produced from the seeds will never be as productive as the parent tree (frequency of crop output & volume of crop output)? Or is it exaggerated? Or does it only apply to certain genera?

Thanks,
Random341

nighthawk0911@yahoo.com

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 10:18:02 PM »
1. Citrus - 90% of varieties grow true.

2. Mango - 90% of varieties do NOT grow true.

3. Avocados - No varieties grow true to the best of my knowledge.



Always buy grafted trees and just use seeds for experimenting with. Having said that all the popular varieties started out as seedlings originally. 
Blessed be the man who plants a tree knowing he will never live to enjoy it's fruit or shade.

Orkine

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 10:50:50 PM »
Just reinforcing that last statement.  That a particular plant does not grow true to type from seed does not mean a bad thing in all cases.  It could produce better fruit, or be better in some other way.

The reason it is important to know is if you liked the fruit and wanted exactly the same fruit, you may not get it by planting the seed.  For people who breed or select plants, its a blessing.


Oolie

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 10:51:50 PM »
The word that you are looking for is nucellar seedling.

It can sometimes produce nucellar offtypes as well, a common type is the polyploid, which is usually identical to the parent but dwarf and with an extra set of chromosomes.

Hopefully that article will help.


Mike T

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 11:08:33 PM »
Most plants prefer to outcross so often are not identical to the parent.Then again it depends on genetics and the relative dominance of specific characteristics. There are a lot of things to think about here. Bud sports and mutations wont grow true, clonal type seeds will like some mangoes, and Lansiums and mangosteen clonal seeds so do. Some species show little variation so it looks like they grow true. Many bisex tree seeds grow very true. It is easier to talk about it case by case rather than in a general sense.

Random341

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 12:50:19 AM »
These are some of the genera of fruit I want to grow, including some that was mentioned:

Annona
Artocarpus
Baccaurea
Durio
Garcinia
Inga
Mangifera
Nephelium


There are of course a lot of species of the aforementioned genera, as well as hybrids, and after discovering them, I've been wanting to grow them ever since. But, now, after finding out that there is so much variation (especially in hybrids), I'm discouraged, because I want to grow fruits that are just like the fruit of the parent tree.

I just thought as long as you had your seeds in the perfect growing environment and you were taking great care of them, that the seeds would sprout, mature into a tree and would later on produce fruit that is just like the fruit of the parent tree. Yet, apparently, for the most part, that is not the case when specifically referring to the fruit being true to the fruit of the parent tree.

Thank you everyone for the provided assistance.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 12:55:03 AM by Random341 »

SeaWalnut

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 01:29:03 AM »
Look into polyembrionic seeds .Manny mango and garcinias are polyembrionic wich means they have 2 or more embrios in one seed.One is from sexual breeding and the otther/s are same exact DNA as the parent,like a grafted tree but better,on its own roots that will live longer than a grafted tree usually.

Mike T

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 05:23:22 AM »
Yes nucellar seedling from an inclusion body in mangosteen. The genetic variation in mangosteens is because there were a number of hybridising events a long time ago,.

pineislander

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 07:20:29 AM »
Answers to the original questions really can't be absolute because there are too many variables among the diverse species available. It can take a long time to understand the variability or type trueness of any plant, and genetic "sports" sometimes happen even on an individual branch of an individual plant in a field. Nobody knows it all and the genetic roulette in life plays out every day. There's many lifetimes of knowledge still to come and plenty to keep you busy. This is all part of the fun, the discovery of diversity. I recall there are some genetic scientists commenting here on the forum, much respect to them.


gnappi

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2019, 09:10:39 AM »
Just reinforcing that last statement.  That a particular plant does not grow true to type from seed does not mean a bad thing in all cases.  It could produce better fruit, or be better in some other way.

The reason it is important to know is if you liked the fruit and wanted exactly the same fruit, you may not get it by planting the seed.  For people who breed or select plants, its a blessing.

For sure.

I have a Julie seedling (Juicy Lucy) that has no anthracnose / fungal issues. It has a more pronounced "nose" on the fruit than the parent and some are actually pinocchio like, (see pic) and the fruits are smaller that those from the parent tree. They retain the beautiful coloration of the Julie, and it bears heavily. Taste is not "top tier" IMO but are creamy in texture and better than any store bought.

The size of the tree is not "dwarf" but not huge either. I grafted several and one at a friend's house has borne fruit rather heavily at 4' tall and did not lose a single fruit.

https://ibb.co/gM20Y6y
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 09:12:53 AM by gnappi »
Regards,

   Gary

brian

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Re: True To Type
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2019, 11:04:26 AM »
One thing I've found is that a good number of tropical fruits are typically propagated by seed either because they don't clone well, or there are no real cultivars.  Cattley guava, miracle fruit, some garcinias & eugenias?  I'm sure a ton of others.  These may by nucellar but they seem to be "close enough" to parent that they are expected to be equivalent.

 

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