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Author Topic: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?  (Read 1350 times)

Janpol

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Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« on: November 16, 2019, 05:34:53 AM »
Hi
I planted this tree in March this spring. It is cultivar "Muscat". It has around two meters height. Since May it has begun to grow and even bloomed. It grew weakly. It didn't fruit due to cold May. Now it hasn't got any leaves, but some twigs is withering away. It is wintering. Krakow is situated on 6b zone. Persimmon can withstand frosts. How cover  it for winter? Maybe it cope uncovered? How care about it?

March 2019:





https://i.imgur.com/HgkwVVD.jpg

April 2019 :

https://i.imgur.com/GL2lN1U.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/11a8QMI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bxt4vox.jpg

May 2019 :

https://i.imgur.com/kksHX8H.jpg

June 2019 :

https://imgur.com/sYCjpjV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LbDuCmK.jpg

Now :

https://i.imgur.com/9UrYerH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bVt5E6h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/c8cwZHu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YaJ2Zmm.jpg











« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 05:38:37 AM by Janpol »

All the fruit

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2019, 07:57:42 AM »
I have never seen D. kaki in 6b and even the trees i saw in 7a did not look too good.
Why dont you get some tasty D. lotus variety? Tens of thousands of cherry sized persimmons per ature tree and in my experience much hardier than D. kaki.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 09:57:59 AM »
If its potted you can keep it in a garage or something.

shiro

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2019, 03:55:22 PM »
Among the most resistant D. Kaki are:

Diospyros Virginiana X Kaki Kassandra ( -26°C )

Diospyros Kaki Rojo Brillante x D.Lotus

Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki russian beauty ( Rosseyanka )
http://taxonweb.cz/t/1879

Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki russian red

Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki super rosijanka

If you have to plant D.Kaki then it is the ones that it would be best to choose.

also the name muscat is a name whose origin is confused.
Here is a website that explains the possible errors of calling
http://www.fruitiers-rares.info/articles45a50/article45-confusions-appellations-Diospyros-kaki.html

Anolis

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2019, 04:14:01 PM »
As others have said, you may be better off with a more cold hardy variety. Your best bet for keeping this tree alive would likely be moving it against a south facing wall, the more thermal mass the better. A more labor intensive method would be to place one or two 55 gallon barrels around your tree and fill them with water (portable thermal mass), then throw a tarp over it overnight when the temperatures fall. For extra protection, wrap the tree in old fashioned (heat producing) Christmas lights before covering it with the tarp to trap maximum heat.

Janpol

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2019, 04:20:08 PM »
If its potted you can keep it in a garage or something.


  I'm afraid it isn't possible. My tree grow in ground.


I have never seen D. kaki in 6b and even the trees i saw in 7a did not look too good.
Why dont you get some tasty D. lotus variety? Tens of thousands of cherry sized persimmons per ature tree and in my experience much hardier than D. kaki.

This website http://przyjaznyogrod.blogspot.com/2016/12/diospyros-kaki-uprawa-w-ogrodzie.html convince me to plant kaki. In the plant nursery near me there were two cultivars to choose from: "Rojo brillante" and "Muscat". I chose "Muscat".
D. kaki are often grafting on D. lotus or D. virginiana, so even if it freezes, nothing bad won't become, because it will grow up with rootstock. What cultivars of D. lotus or virginiana do you recommend?

Janpol

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2019, 04:34:16 PM »
As others have said, you may be better off with a more cold hardy variety. Your best bet for keeping this tree alive would likely be moving it against a south facing wall, the more thermal mass the better. A more labor intensive method would be to place one or two 55 gallon barrels around your tree and fill them with water (portable thermal mass), then throw a tarp over it overnight when the temperatures fall. For extra protection, wrap the tree in old fashioned (heat producing) Christmas lights before covering it with the tarp to trap maximum heat.

It's a little complicated. Requires electricity. I don't have access to it on my garden allotment. I was thinking about several layers of agrotextil and dead leaves inside to warm it.
 

shiro

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2019, 05:23:18 PM »
If its potted you can keep it in a garage or something.


  I'm afraid it isn't possible. My tree grow in ground.


I have never seen D. kaki in 6b and even the trees i saw in 7a did not look too good.
Why dont you get some tasty D. lotus variety? Tens of thousands of cherry sized persimmons per ature tree and in my experience much hardier than D. kaki.

This website http://przyjaznyogrod.blogspot.com/2016/12/diospyros-kaki-uprawa-w-ogrodzie.html convince me to plant kaki. In the plant nursery near me there were two cultivars to choose from: "Rojo brillante" and "Muscat". I chose "Muscat".
D. kaki are often grafting on D. lotus or D. virginiana, so even if it freezes, nothing bad won't become, because it will grow up with rootstock. What cultivars of D. lotus or virginiana do you recommend?


For this I have already answered you with cultivars ( Diospyros virginiana x diospyros kaki and diospyros lotus x Kaki ) .

If in your nursery they sell them (( rojo brillante and muscat ) and say that it can grow in the soil it is possible.

After you should know that Diospyros kaki often make dead wood, that does not mean that it will die.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 05:25:42 PM by shiro »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2019, 06:39:22 PM »
Jiro survives outdoor in full zone 6 ,to minus 24 C.I keep mein outdoor in the ground and its grafted on D Lotus.
I also have 3 D Virginiana from seed ( not hibrids) and they are the most cold hardy persimmon specie and a lot more cold hardy than D Lotus or the Kaki hibrids.
Beware of the rojo brillante because ive read thats not cold hardy as fuyu or jiro( fuyu is actually Jiro usually).
You can protect it from wind with somme cloth if you wish.

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2019, 01:14:40 PM »
I do not know what D. lotus varieties we have here in 8a but most trees are very astringent until hit with some harsch frost. There is one tree wherevyou can eat the fruit in nov without any frost. All trees produce tons of seedlings whic flower themselves. In 7a (Marburg) i saw many D.  lotus with many fruit but no seedlings.
Rojo brilliante is our main supermarket kaki almost always coming from Spain. That does not sound like sth that will grow well in Poland.

Janpol

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2019, 01:09:10 PM »
What does mean "astringent"?
Which of cultivars are astringent and which aren't  astringent and simultaneously can grow in Poland?
Which are healthier?

usirius

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2019, 02:42:24 PM »
Astringent means that the Kakis when they are still hard taste like sloes, which have not got a frost, the mouth we quite unpleasantly dry. When the kakis then ripen (mostly after harvesting), they are soft and no longer astringent from the end of November / beginning of December. They are then also no longer long-lasting if they are soft.

On the other hand, there are also no Kaki varieties with astringent fruits, which means that you can eat them with pleasure when they are still hard. Of course, they can also be softened, but it is not naggy.

After my long year experiences, kakis with a somewhat square and slightly flat fruit shape are not particularly astringent, and kakis with a more rounded geometry are mostly astringent, i.e. only edible after softening!

Concerning growth I am only able to speak accoridng to my Long time experiences in Zone 7b - here both kinds of Kakis are growing similar and hardiness is simlar here also.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

shiro

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2019, 02:53:50 PM »
Persimon (astringent) is a persimon that must be eaten when the fruit to begin are bletting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletting

The cultivars grafting on lotus are all.
Triumph (or Sharon), Tone wase, Rojo brilliant, Tipo etc...
In Poland hybrids or virginiana seems to me to be the best choices.
The lotus is very well known in Europe but less efficient than virginiana, that said virginiana is not easily found.
The (sharon) a flat persimon is astringent, the same for (Rojo brillant ) which is round.

shiro

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2019, 03:05:50 PM »
Here is the wiki link and the website link of a French nursery where different cultivars and their astringent or non-astringent characteristics are indicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persimmon

https://www.pepinieredubosc.fr/kaki/

Janpol

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2019, 07:39:57 AM »
I' m interested in black kaki (huk kam). Does Anyone  have experience in growing this cultivar? Where is the best and not far away place to buy a kaki tree (There are no such plants in Poland)?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 08:57:09 AM by Janpol »

shiro

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2019, 10:45:31 AM »
It has just been put up for sale in France but you can ask them.

Next year scion-wood to graft will probably be available on (fruitiers.net) for exchange or donation (the Poland being part of the UE it is possible ).

SeaWalnut

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2019, 04:12:10 PM »
You can get them at a fair price from Exoticplants.bg where they had these rare varietyes of persimmons long before the french shops and the cold hardiness is better documented than anywhere else.

Janpol

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2019, 12:11:58 PM »
What kind of soil does persimmon need? In my allotment garden there is a sandy and clay soil. Is it good for my persimmon tree?

kumin

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2020, 08:41:16 PM »
Although well drained soil is best, persimmons have considerable tolerance to clay soil. Wet soil is tolerated better in cold temperatures than hot weather, as the need for soil oxygen is lower in winter. Sandy soil is fine as long as the soil has adequate fertility and moisture.

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Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2020, 11:30:14 AM »
If I am pushing the limits of what a tree can stand as far as weather and conditions and the tree shows me it cannot handle it I don't waste a couple of years trying and praying for a different outcome.  I try to find a better suited tree that is bigger.  So i do not have to wait as long.  I am not going to live forever.  So I will pay a little more to save myself a couple of years waiting for fruit.

 

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