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Author Topic: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold  (Read 3125 times)

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2020, 08:35:42 PM »
Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native  to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.

I am sure I have posted it in response to a similar comment in the past but here  goes again.

https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/

The green Iguana is not native to Florida.

Regarding invasives, what can I say in response to your statement, sometimes it is best to shut up and shake your head.  But it is not this time.  I live in Florida and see the damage from invasives, even plants, can do.  When some species are released into places where they have no predators and especially can reproduce is large numbers, they cause havoc.
The pythons in South Florida significantly reduced the population of fur-bearing animals in a most un-natural way  - read this if you care (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/). Snakes made it to Guam and they did a non-political number - read if you care (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees)

If you were just trolling for a reaction, OK, you got me.  .. but you contribute such interesting and mostly factual info that I couldn't ignore this.  People may believe it based your creds.
I apologise if it looked like trolling.And no,im not trolling.
Green iguana its not native to Florida until you find a green iguana fossil that will change everything.
We did it here recently with jackals that are considered invasive until somewhone found somme jackal fossil ( not even a fossil but like just 3000 years old remains) and now its a native animal.
What im saying its that science not politics should be used to asses the ecological role of an invasive specie.
Sadly its the politics that rule the science.
Off course there are bad invasive species too but not all should be considered the same.
Invasive earth worms are a blessing for the enviroment while the snake head fish in Florida i think its the worst invader a country can get.
Iguanas can be good to the native ecosystems in Florida because they spread native flora seeds.Its the opposite of the snakes examples in the links youve posted.
Maybe iguanas eat those endangered Florida paw paws and spread their seeds.This could be important because the giant sloth that used to ate the pawpaws and disperse their seeds is extinct.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 09:11:12 PM by SeaWalnut »

bovine421

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2020, 09:20:38 PM »
Do mosquitoes have souls huh? :-\ Frozen Iguana is a South Florida thing but I would say tennis anyone!!! :)
Tete Nene Julie Pickering Dot Sonpari Mallika PPK E-4 OS   Fruit Punch SweetTart Honey Kiss M-4 Neelam

Orkine

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2020, 09:30:20 PM »
So, order is restored.

Of course sometimes exotics are introduced to help manage other exotics.  It is at the core of biological controls.
You study and carefully select in the hope that the biological control itself is non-invasive.

Of course some exotics turn out beneficial, we spent time and money trying to control large exotic apple snails till we realized the snail kite had evolved to feed on the new larger snails.  The population of snail kite rebounded thanks to this exotic competitor that was pushing out its smaller native competition.

roblack

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2020, 09:58:48 PM »
Would be nice to see the Florida panther make a rebound, feasting on abundant iguanids.

People would really freak out if large cats started showing up in their neighborhoods.

Daintree

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2020, 10:10:45 PM »
Sea Walnut, that is like saying that Ceausescu was a peaceful ruler and that Bucharest has no stray dogs. Please check facts with reputable sources...

Carolyn

Botanicus

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2020, 07:33:54 AM »
It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.

johnb51

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2020, 08:32:28 AM »
It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.
Have you heard about all the unnecessary toll roads they want to build now crisscrossing Florida?  Just so private interests and politicians can stuff their pockets with money!!
John

roblack

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2020, 08:54:56 AM »
It's the invasive primates in Florida that I find most distasteful, they have destroyed everything they touched, while pointing their filthy fingers at every other newcomer.

True, we are the worst.

JakeFruit

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2020, 09:32:23 AM »
Living in Florida for the last 4 decades or so, I've seen tilapia & oscars nearly wipe-out native bluegill & bass, hydrilla and hyacinth takeover freshwater bodies, Brazilian pepper claim acres upon acres of land, and that's just the first three that come to mind. Keeping this as respectful as possible, this talk of uncontrollable invasives benefiting a native ecology is madness. The introduction of rats to New Zealand helped control their flightless bird population, but arguing there was any benefit in those rats with a Kiwi would not go well.

Fossil records can prove a species once existed in a region, but it has little relevance to current ecology. There's a balance crafted over eons, a delicate state of order. A species that hasn't existed natively for millennia is no longer part of that order.

Botanicus

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2020, 09:53:42 AM »
There is no such thing as a delicate balance of nature, any assemblage of organisms is an accident of geology, geography, and time. Likewise the terms "native", "exotic" etc. have absolutely no biological meaning whatsoever.

A few interesting books on the subject:

The New Wild by Fred Pearce
Inheritors of the Earth by Chris D. Thomas
Invasion Biology: Critique of a Pseudoscience by David I. Theodoropoulos

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2020, 11:06:14 AM »
Living in Florida for the last 4 decades or so, I've seen tilapia & oscars nearly wipe-out native bluegill & bass, hydrilla and hyacinth takeover freshwater bodies, Brazilian pepper claim acres upon acres of land, and that's just the first three that come to mind. Keeping this as respectful as possible, this talk of uncontrollable invasives benefiting a native ecology is madness. The introduction of rats to New Zealand helped control their flightless bird population, but arguing there was any benefit in those rats with a Kiwi would not go well.

Fossil records can prove a species once existed in a region, but it has little relevance to current ecology. There's a balance crafted over eons, a delicate state of order. A species that hasn't existed natively for millennia is no longer part of that order.
Im not starting to hijack this forum again,but there are beneficial invasives like the invasive earthworms,the non native honney bee and my favorite the silver carp ( most hated asian carp,the one that jumps).
You must know the Florida red tides that wipe out whole ecosistems.Its caused by eutrophisation wich only the siver carp can stop effectivelly.
Same for the lake Erie,the most poluted lake in the world and its giant in size,the silver carp could have stopped that eutrophisation.
In Florida now you have snake heads that eat Tilapia and oscars and they will wipe them out with otther native species.This fish even comes on land to hunt and would kill a great white shark of the same size or even slightly bigger( just fora metaphoric comparison as these do not live in the same enviroment ).

But the most mind blowing calculation i made its that silver carps could have saved The Great Barrier Reef and that would probably have stopped global warming because the coral skeleton contains 50% carbonate.
Corals are verry sensitive to the slightest eutrophisation( ie ,too much ,,fertiliser,, in the water.
Basically the Great Barrier Reef was killed with sewage water   by a nation that has the toughest anti invasive life forms policies.
Hating ,,invasives,, through politics and not using the most basic science like understanding the phosphorus cycle in nature and eutrophisation hits back.


dwfl

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2020, 12:14:23 PM »
Preserving native ecosystems only seem important when convenient. History shows tunes change quickly when it comes to apex predators. Grizzly bears, wolves, even American alligators and crocodiles were nearly wiped out in Florida at one point. Alligators/crocs have made a great comeback with our help but I doubt we ever see grizzly bears roaming the coasts of northern California (or anywhere in California) again.

JakeFruit

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2020, 12:55:04 PM »
There is no such thing as a delicate balance of nature[....]
Call it what you want, checks & balances, there's a general stasis in native ecology. Over-growth/population by one native species is generally countered/regulated by another within the system. Introducing invasive species with no natural counters within the system can devastate native species. Pythons are wiping out native populations of raccoons, deer, possums, etc., in the Everglades without any checks on their spread. Will the native system eventually find some counter to the explosive growth of an invasive species, whether it be predator, plague or otherwise? Certainly, but also almost certainly too late to save some native species.

pineislander

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2020, 05:34:20 PM »
For those of us in Florida for an education in historical terms you need to be aware that our current ecosystem is less than 10,000 years old, more like less than 5,000. During and after the last ice age our land was a barren desert of sand dunes with no surface water, no Everglades or Okeechobee, and nearly twice as wide as oceans had receded. This important book explains how the present evolved and how humans came to exist as the change from Sahara to present ecosystem happened.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 05:41:19 PM »
Iguanas are most likely native to Florida since they are native  to Cuba( a few species).
There are even iguana fossils found in somme Florida shales.
If your affraid of Salmonella,then never eat ducks or duck eggs and hope that a duck wont poo in your pool while flying.
This hype about ,,invasive,,specie its political and has nothing to do with ecology.I think its just people that are manipulated by politicians to hate something so that it unites them,like hating immigrants or certain religious or semitic comunityes.
Funny its that the hate hits back as you can see these ,, rioters ecologists,, wreak havoc their own country land and do more harm than good because its politics not science at the base of their ideology.

I am sure I have posted it in response to a similar comment in the past but here  goes again.

https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/profiles/reptiles/green-iguana/

The green Iguana is not native to Florida.

Regarding invasives, what can I say in response to your statement, sometimes it is best to shut up and shake your head.  But it is not this time.  I live in Florida and see the damage from invasives, even plants, can do.  When some species are released into places where they have no predators and especially can reproduce is large numbers, they cause havoc.
The pythons in South Florida significantly reduced the population of fur-bearing animals in a most un-natural way  - read this if you care (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-hybrid-pythons-are-threatening-floridas-wildlife-180970178/). Snakes made it to Guam and they did a non-political number - read if you care (https://www.sciencealert.com/guam-s-plague-of-snakes-is-having-a-devastating-impact-on-the-trees)

If you were just trolling for a reaction, OK, you got me.  .. but you contribute such interesting and mostly factual info that I couldn't ignore this.  People may believe it based your creds.
I apologise if it looked like trolling.And no,im not trolling.
Green iguana its not native to Florida until you find a green iguana fossil that will change everything.
We did it here recently with jackals that are considered invasive until somewhone found somme jackal fossil ( not even a fossil but like just 3000 years old remains) and now its a native animal.
What im saying its that science not politics should be used to asses the ecological role of an invasive specie.
Sadly its the politics that rule the science.
Off course there are bad invasive species too but not all should be considered the same.
Invasive earth worms are a blessing for the enviroment while the snake head fish in Florida i think its the worst invader a country can get.
Iguanas can be good to the native ecosystems in Florida because they spread native flora seeds.Its the opposite of the snakes examples in the links youve posted.
Maybe iguanas eat those endangered Florida paw paws and spread their seeds.This could be important because the giant sloth that used to ate the pawpaws and disperse their seeds is extinct.

Invasive earthworms alter the ecology of environments they are not native too and can cause decomposition rates that are not what they were. This alters the micro biology and beyond. I am a restoration ecologist and have done work in temperate and tropical systems. If you think invasive species are political then you obviously have no understanding of invasive species ecology or likely ecology in general. I can send you some papers and provide you heaps of anecdotal evidence that invasive species destroy habitats for all organisms that are native and once occupied those areas.

achetadomestica

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2020, 07:47:52 PM »
For those of us in Florida for an education in historical terms you need to be aware that our current ecosystem is less than 10,000 years old, more like less than 5,000. During and after the last ice age our land was a barren desert of sand dunes with no surface water, no Everglades or Okeechobee, and nearly twice as wide as oceans had receded. This important book explains how the present evolved and how humans came to exist as the change from Sahara to present ecosystem happened.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Evolution_of_Calusa/doMp9LtdZiAC?hl=en&gbpv=1

We are in an ice age now!

 



SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2020, 10:33:38 PM »
Nattyfroootz, i am a professional ecologist like you have those from EPA in the US.
Trying to teach me ecology would be like trying to teach your father how to make kids.

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2020, 11:59:00 PM »
Oh nice, well then maybe you can educate me with some evidence to support your stance?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2020, 12:30:51 AM »
Oh nice, well then maybe you can educate me with some evidence to support your stance?
I allready said all i had to say but probably because of my bad language people skip my rambling messages.
For instance the most hated silver carps( asian carps) eat algae that feed on phosphorus ( algae because they are not plants they need only phosphorus because they can take the nitrogen directly from air likr bacteria).
Most peacefull fish the jumping carp its a harmless filter feeder that eats algae and traps phosphorus into its skeleton  thus locking the phosphorus because bones are not soluble in water.
Phosphorus its mostly found in nature as calcium phosphate ( like the bones of the carp).
Phosphorus acumulation has caused the Lake Erie to die of eutrophisation wich led to the establishment of EPA and clear water act( all of these because Lake Erie crashed).
Now a days Lake Erie has 3 times more phosphorus in it than it had when EPA was created and its a time bomb ,dies every autumn from eutrophisation.
If you had jumping silver carps in that lake it would have reduced the phosphate and the lake wouldnt have died from eutrophisation .
Silver carps could have been protecting that native ecosystem without causing any harm ( they eat only algae that are in excess from polution from sewage,detergents ,etc).
You can google eutrophisation and phosphorus cycle and see for yourself how the asian carps can stop it.

Its logical that an ecksystem is better without even the beneficial ,,invasive,, animals or plants ,but once people got there and pour sewage water in the lake for decades and phosphorus builds up ,it becomes an altered enviroment and its much better to protect it than to let it die and all the ecosystem to die from eutrophisation.
Silver carps can heal the lakes and clean the water for free but its not what politicians want.They want monney and if the silver carps dont bring monney they dont care about the enviroment.
They teach you to hate this humble iet magnificent fish and instead they come up with useless wasted monney projects like using harmfull chemicals to clean the phosphate ( LaCl) because selling ( verry inneficient compared to these carps)chemicals fills their pockets  with monney.

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2020, 01:03:01 AM »
I read through them but those statements are focusing on a single aspect but ignore the ecology of the lake. Yeah eutrophication is bad, but it is seasonal and in large part leaves the ecological dynamics that have been long established intact.  It sounds like you are talking about "permaculture" solutions to "ecological" problems. 

What do ecologists or politicians have to gain from not having this exotic carp species in lake Michigan that makes it so political?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2020, 01:37:23 AM »
I read through them but those statements are focusing on a single aspect but ignore the ecology of the lake. Yeah eutrophication is bad, but it is seasonal and in large part leaves the ecological dynamics that have been long established intact.  It sounds like you are talking about "permaculture" solutions to "ecological" problems. 

What do ecologists or politicians have to gain from not having this exotic carp species in lake Michigan that makes it so political?
Im not talking about permaculture because these carps its not necesarely to be harvested .
It will be fine if the silver carps die of old age in the lake.Their skeleton sinks to the bottom and the phosphorus they colected troughout their life into the bones its not soluble in water and stays locked.Their skeleton its a phosphorus sink ,verry efficient and they have zero negative impact on native wildlife because they eat only planctonic algae wich are in excess.
You think eutrophisation its not big deal but eutrophisation killed The Great Barrier Reef.corals are verry sensitive to phosphorus .They need cristal clear water and even the slightest eutrophisation wipes them out .
Nature can recover but manny endemic species have vanished due to eutrophisation .
After a lake dies because of the pgosphorus,its repopulated again with wildlife but that original ecosystem had vanished.
Basically lake Erie fauna its just a few years old while in lake Ohrid in Europe,lake Baikal, ,that fauna its probably milions of years old .

I dont know what do politicians gain ( its absurd to include ecologists here because an ecologist knows at least the phosphorus cycle and that the asian jumping carp its harmless) but its probably what they dont gain wich led them to ignore it.
I think they teach people to hate these animals because of ,,invasive,, word .Its like hating immigrants,otther religions or races.Politicians use hate to bring people together.But their hate has nothing to do with the most basic science or ecology.
This manipulation is used by both,leftists and right wingers politicians and scientists are ignored or they have to become biased to suit their politician boss agenda.

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2020, 01:45:06 AM »
Well, I think you are glossing over major parts and focusing only on one small piece of the cycle. Do you have any sources or papers to support your claims of jumping asian carpet being harmless to other wildlife? Or any sources?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2020, 02:04:47 AM »
Well, I think you are glossing over major parts and focusing only on one small piece of the cycle. Do you have any sources or papers to support your claims of jumping asian carpet being harmless to other wildlife? Or any sources?
That you can google yourself.I know well the biology of the fish and i am not even thinking where i could find references since this would be like asking me about references on why 2+2 =4.
But if you are indeed an enviromentalist and care for references it should be easy for you to find them in english language.
And im not focusing on just one enviromental issue.My job its to take samples or water,soil and air and measure them in the lab and i also asses ecosistems and take actions to restore them.
Off course on certain issues like the asian carp,im more qualifyed than otthers.
Basically if you google youl see this carp has somme sponges,no stomack and it eats while it breathe by filtering the water with those sponges.Doesnt eat otther fish or animals eggs or plants and has a big skeleton wich stores a lot of phosphorus.
This fish could have saved the Great Barrier Reef wich in turn could have saved the whole planet from global warming.
Because stony corals skeleton are a carbon sink ( calcium carbonate).
A dead GBR its like having a dead Amazon forest and it died because of human ignorance not even for profit or to benefit the civilisation.

Orkine

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2020, 08:05:13 AM »
Order is not restored after all.

Silver Carp is an invasive brought in by scientists to control algae, exactly what you are proposing (at least as I understand you)?

Quote below from an article on Sierra club's website.  The full story is about finding a good use for this invasive, cooking and eating it.

"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."

What is that proverb again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." 

Here is a balanced story about silver carp.  Worth reading. 
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5542199

ALL SAID, I can not share your conclusion that this species is a beneficial invasive in most of the US.  It is like suggesting that the melaleuca (uinquenervia) is a great tree in Florida, it isn't. SOmeone brought it in to stabilize soils and drain wet areas, but it got loose.  Bet it did the job on that one spot but most of natural south Florida is dealing with a problem now.
Do you also think the old world climbing fern (Lygodium microphyllum) is a good thing for Florida? I bet someone liked it, it did what they wanted, only problem is it escaped cultivation and with no natural controls is decimating parts of Florida including tree islands in the everglades. We are spending hundreds of millions trying to control it.  https://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/plant-directory/lygodium-microphyllum/

pineislander

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2020, 08:07:00 AM »
This fish could have saved the Great Barrier Reef wich in turn could have saved the whole planet from global warming.
Because stony corals skeleton are a carbon sink ( calcium carbonate).
A dead GBR its like having a dead Amazon forest and it died because of human ignorance not even for profit or to benefit the civilisation.

The premise that the Great Barrier reef is dead is wrong.
2017 explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcjaQYcsr-w

3 months ago, from Australian Broadcasting News in-depth:
Quote
"Bottom line is the reef is not dying, there are some parts of the reef which are degraded but there are other parts which are absolutely magnificent"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqqs7kxHbw0

 

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