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Author Topic: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold  (Read 3121 times)

JakeFruit

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2020, 08:12:07 AM »
It's rare to find a conversation where someone is advocating FOR invasive species, so I appreciate the debate and research it's prompted me to do. I agree that honey bees have largely been a positive addition, but I would counter that they don't fit the definition of "invasive" since they haven't displaced any native species. Regarding earthworms, there are actually multiple native North American earthworms, but they have largely been displaced by bigger, more aggressive European and Asian species. Nattyfroootz is also correct, their impact on forests (for one) has not been positive. The claim that carp could save the Great Barrier Reef is pure hyperbole. Nutrient-rich runoff is a small part of the problem, but coral "bleaching" from increased water temperature, oceanic absorption of atmospheric CO2, and the crown-of-thorns starfish (which alone has caused ~40% of the loss) are much bigger issues.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2020, 08:51:59 AM »
Stony corals bleaching its mainly triggered by phosphates.
Corals are photosynthetic.They host  zooxanthelae wich are like algae.Give them phosphorus and they take the nitrogen from air and ,,bloom,,inside the ckrals wich make them to spit them out and become transparent but still alive thogh they will die of starvation afterwards.
Coral bleaching when you see dead coral skeletons that look white from hot enviroment its just a dead coral not a bleached coral.
First they become brown from too much zooxanthelae then they spit them out and the coral polips look like transparent glass.
Ask any reefer if corals like phosphorus and youl see.
Somme lagoon type corals are more resistant to dirrty water and higher P,but those do not build reefs ( they are soft corals) or somme that do,they grow extremely slow and are not a big carbon sink like the fast growing sensitive corals (SPS,mainly Acropora and Montipora sp).
The silver carps do reduce the phosphorus from the water by a lot so its easy to understand that keeping the fish on wate water ponds would reduce the P from sewage that goes into the ocean.

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2020, 09:35:04 AM »
Sorry sea walnut, your opinion is baseless without support. That's the problem nowadays, people spew their opinion like it's a fact all over the internet but have no actual support. I see so many holes in your argument but you ignore them completely. You keep saying the same thing but ignore the greater ecology of the ecosystems you speak of.

Also, honeybees are actually displacing native bees! They forage and obtain resources that native bees would otherwise use. It's not something most people know about because we treasure the honey bee so much. Plant native species and create habitats that support native bee populations!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 09:43:42 AM by nattyfroootz »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2020, 11:40:51 AM »
Sorry sea walnut, your opinion is baseless without support. That's the problem nowadays, people spew their opinion like it's a fact all over the internet but have no actual support. I see so many holes in your argument but you ignore them completely. You keep saying the same thing but ignore the greater ecology of the ecosystems you speak of.

Also, honeybees are actually displacing native bees! They forage and obtain resources that native bees would otherwise use. It's not something most people know about because we treasure the honey bee so much. Plant native species and create habitats that support native bee populations!
You are wrong even about the honney bees because they collect at max 15-20 percent of the pollen and nectar from the flowers and they increase pollination by a lot  wich means there will be more fruits and seeds and future plants with flowers for them and the native pollinators to enjoy.
There is soo much nectar in nature that where i go at fishing and im sitting under somme big willow trees infested with aphids ,it literally rains with droplets of nectar and everything gets sticky from it.There are tens of thousands of beehives there side by side for kilometers.
Somme plants have evolved to put nectar in the soil to atract bacteria and get Nitrogen( the nitrogen fixers).
You can never have enough bees.
But i like the most the example with the silver carps because that clearly shows how people are manipulated into the wrong direction.
You say i have no support but i think i have since i can use these carps to restore the most degraded lakes here and they are used all over the world ,even in USA .You basically can have no argument against this carp and i know it because i am a professional enviromentalist( i apply the enviromental laws here).
With the knowledge you can ,,steal,,from me you can troll any fake or misguided enviromentalist scientist at the highest level thats against the carps and you win.

The sad part its that these countryes that ,,protect themselves,, from invasive species ( wich its not a bad thing to do) ,have created the most polluted waters and possibly ,in the case of Great Barrier Reef killed with sewage,the biggest destruction of the enviroment on Terra in history and biggest mass extinction of species made by man.
All of that because they didnt cared to learn the phosphorus cycle.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:56:25 AM by SeaWalnut »

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2020, 11:57:47 AM »
15 to 20 percent? that's a pretty specific statement, still no sources to support that?

Honeybees:

Some light reading:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/27/581007165/honeybees-help-farmers-but-they-dont-help-the-environment

A published article:
Positive and Negative Impacts of Non-Native Bee Species around the World
Laura Russo


Asian Carp:
https://www.nps.gov/miss/learn/nature/ascarpover.htm
This article specifically contradicts you, mentioning that the Asian Carp competes for food (plankton) and space with native species.
Let me know if you would like more, this was a quick google search that allowed me to add credibility to my argument rather than more anecdotal emotion.


Aphids:
Aphids are sucking/piercing insects and they defecate a honey dew. It's not nectar from bees.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 12:15:26 PM by nattyfroootz »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2020, 12:27:49 PM »
The article on bees its stupid because the honney bees dont just extract the nectar from nature and give nothing back.They extract somme nectar and give back pollination wich means more fruits for wild native birds and animals to eat ,more seeds from wich the wild ,native plants to grow and make more flowers that will produce more nectar for the  honney bees themselves and the native pollinators.
Also ,the native polinators are a lot more suited than honney bees for their enviroment and there is no competition the native polinators can not win.
Native pollinators like bumble bees are more adapted to cold and visit flowers first ,before the bees wake up or they have longer tongues like butterflyes,etc.
The only downside of having honney bees is the beekeeper that could plant exotic invasive specie of flowering plants but not the bees themselves.
Bees collect that honney dew from aphids and make a dark honney called forrest honney wich is expensive because it doesnt contains pollen grains and its the only honney that people with pollen allergies can eat.
As for the carps i allready pointed you to read wikipedia at least about eutrophisation.
They dont compete with native species for plancton because there is too much plancton because of the sewage that causes the eutrophisation/ death of a lake or of the GBR.
That article basically says that asian carps eat a lot of plancton wich is good,means they clean the water well.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 12:31:25 PM by SeaWalnut »

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2020, 12:44:56 PM »
Sorry Seawalnut, I'm done reading about your opinion. But if you would like to send me some sources that have legitimate arguments I'd love to read them.

Spreading misinformation on the internet is dangerous, people will believe anyone who sounds knowledgable on a subject. Being able to back up claims with evidence is important in protecting the integrity of science and not exploiting those who might not totally understand a subject.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 06:43:36 PM by nattyfroootz »

luketrollope

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2020, 04:37:38 PM »
Wow palm city you sure opened a can of invasive earth worms with this topic. It was a very interesting read. Thanks for the book recommendations Botanicus I ordered”the new wild”. Thanks to sea walnut too for your input.

I have often grappled with the issues addressed in this topic. For example where I live in FNQ Australia we are close to PNG and the land has been connected in past ice ages but plants from PNG are considered exotic pests even though I am closer to PNG than my state capitol Brisbane (Brisanus) but plants brought here from around Brisbane are “native “

The same thing here with the coconut palm. Some people here say chop them down they are not native but if early European explorers found some trees they would have been native even if they were brought here by indigenous people. In fact there were a few coconut trees in isolated areas and would have been more if the white tail rats did not eat them and Aboriginal people did not cut them down for the heart of palm. In fact where I live the debate on whether to cut down the coconut tress was decided by the Aboriginal people who said you must be crazy to chop down such a useful tree!

The same thing with the dingo in Australia. The dingo was brought out with South Indian seafarers 3000 odd years ago and is considered a native animal but the common dog which can interbred with the dingo is a non native pest. It is almost white guilt like if a white guy introduces it it is an invasive but if was a brown or black guy it is a native.

The fact is the earth is one planet and for billions of years organisms have been on the move. Be it fish eggs hitching a ride on a bird to a new continent or a coconut floating across an ocean to a new shore. We humans have dramatically altered the equation but we too are part of the ecosystem we are in the process of trashing. It is a little comfort to read that some species are thriving in this 6th extinction event now known as the Anthropocene and when us humans are dead and gone some species will have benefited from us the naked ape. 

 

 

SeaWalnut

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 07:30:02 PM by SeaWalnut »

nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2020, 07:47:57 PM »
Control of eutrophication by silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys molitrix)
in the tropical Parano6 Reservoir (Brasilia, Brazil): a mesocosm
experiment

Summary: Ex-situ experiment, meaning that it was conducted in fish tanks and is observing solely phytoplankton and chemical variables.  They did not find that the carp affected the concentrations of Phosphorous, although they did consume high amounts of phytoplankton specifically. 

Compared to your claims: Did not remove phosphorous as you had stated, no evidence or tests on effects of ecology of aquatic ecosystems. 



Biological manipulation of eutrophication in West Yangchen Lake

Summary: Conducted in situ, in a lake in China,  in enclosures.  Testing the density of Silver-carp on phytoplankton density and increasing water quality.  They found that Silvercarp are responsible for limiting algal blooms when they are stocked at a higher density.

Compared to your claims: Yes, they can control algal blooms.  There is no mention of the effects they have on the greater ecology of the lake( other organisms within the ecosystem and how they interact).

The last link is a book compiling endless information about the Biomanipulation of environments to meet end goals of cleaning up eutrophication.  A few points mentioned bring up the fact that they are using SilverCarp to outcompete and balance a lake invaded by Tilapia, which contributes to the eutrophication.  There is no discussion of the overall ecology and this book speaks directly to eutrophication.  I cant access the whole book because my Universities database doesn't have access.   

So far, your point that invasive species are political and that Silver Carp have no effect on native populations/ecology has no support.

Your claim that silvercarp assist in control of algal blooms is valid and supported.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 07:49:29 PM by nattyfroootz »

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2020, 08:38:24 PM »
The bones of the carp are made of calcium phosphate wich means that while this fish eats algae it uses somme of the phosphorus to build its skeleton.Thats why its a phosphorus sink and it is the most advanced freshwater animal that does this.
Its logical and farmers even buy and pay the most on the asian carp heads because they have the most bone weight of the fish and contain the most phosphorus( it is used as a phosphorus fertiliser).
Also look up phosphorus fertiliser made of bones.Its verry common and farmers know it.

There is no negative interaction with the organisms in the lake because this magnificent fish eats only algae ,phytoplancton wich its in excess because of the sewage created eutrophisation.

Now ,since you know this you might realise that the chinese carp could have saved the Great Barrier Reef to die from eutrophisation?
You can find manny more references but usually in otther languages as english speaking americans are totally clueless about this .They dont eat carps,dont have a ,,carp coulture,, wich aids to their loss of native ecosystems.

Orkine

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2020, 09:09:06 PM »
So back in the 1960s some people thought exactly this and imported the carp to Arkansas.  It was a trial of biological control of algae in fish ponds.  Had the fish stayed in the ponds, perhaps a success story.  They didn't, and now there is a problem species taking over swaths of the Mississippi and Ohio river watershed, displacing native fish and we are left trying to make lemonade (when you are handed a lemon you make lemonade - looking for a positive out of a bad thing).

I repeat the quote that I posted earlier.

"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."

No one is arguing that these fish do not eat algae, that is immaterial to the conversation we are having about them being invasives, undesirable in our waterways and creating havoc for local species.  Some well intentioned scientists, thinking the same thing you are thinking today, made a move in the 1960s.  It turned out to have been the wrong move.

... again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2020, 10:29:33 PM »
Those scientists were a lot smarter than todays  politicians.
There is zero harmfull impact from the silver carp.
This practice is used world wide to clean water dxcept in North America and Australia wich have the biggest eutrophisation related problems in the world.

And chemicals can not save such giant water bodyes like the ocean where the Great Barrier Reef is or Lake Erie.
Chemicals are only good to treat your swimming pool at home with LaCl.
There is no solution that could come even close to the power of the silver carps at cleaning water.

roblack

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2020, 11:00:09 PM »
To say there is zero harmful impact from silver carp in the US (or any invasive or even native species for that matter), is simply short sighted. It's like when a pediatrician told me a prescribed medication had no side effects. Everything has myriad effects, which could be considered positive and/or negative depending on the standpoint one takes.

Major derail. Thought this was about iguanas, lol.




nattyfroootz

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2020, 10:01:12 AM »
Well alrighty then. It was a good time trying to talk to you.

dwfl

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2020, 10:32:31 AM »
Whenever I'm driving thru SE FL i see a ton of green iguanas. I'm sure they are a pain in the arse. They love to chomp on flowers. We have more of the black spiny tailed iguanas on this coast and I haven't spotted them on my property so no issue. They do cause headaches for people on Boca Grande. If i had an iguana problem I would trap/kill them on my property. There's way too many of them to wipe them out completely at this point.

Mando408

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2020, 02:34:15 PM »
Why Floridians just don't stuff a small box with baby iguanas, tegus, and a tokay gecko and send it to me is something I'll never understand. I get that Burmese pythons are illegal to import into Cali but the rest aren't.

knlim000

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2020, 03:24:02 PM »
Do mosquitoes have souls huh? :-\ Frozen Iguana is a South Florida thing but I would say tennis anyone!!! :)

I often wonder about trees too.  I think trees have some kind of spirits or soul in them.

knlim000

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2020, 03:27:57 PM »

you should bury the iguana into your soil. Don't throw it away. It makes good fertilizer.  full of plant nutrients inside them.

beicadad

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2020, 11:55:53 AM »
So back in the 1960s some people thought exactly this and imported the carp to Arkansas.  It was a trial of biological control of algae in fish ponds.  Had the fish stayed in the ponds, perhaps a success story.  They didn't, and now there is a problem species taking over swaths of the Mississippi and Ohio river watershed, displacing native fish and we are left trying to make lemonade (when you are handed a lemon you make lemonade - looking for a positive out of a bad thing).

I repeat the quote that I posted earlier.

"The presence of silver carp in the Mississippi dates back to the 1960s, when scientists in Arkansas brought a few different species of Asian carp into the country to see if they might offer a chemical-free way to clean algae out of fish ponds. When funding for the experiment dried up, the fish were released to the waterways and swiftly began outcompeting local fish. Today Asian carp—mostly bighead, silver, and grass carp—make up 90 percent of the biomass in parts of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers."

No one is arguing that these fish do not eat algae, that is immaterial to the conversation we are having about them being invasives, undesirable in our waterways and creating havoc for local species.  Some well intentioned scientists, thinking the same thing you are thinking today, made a move in the 1960s.  It turned out to have been the wrong move.

... again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Agreed!

saltyreefer

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2020, 05:21:20 PM »
I think we all forgot the most invasive species of all! And it has caused
havoc on our environment....



The Snowbird  ;D

Daintree

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2020, 09:14:15 PM »
Hello from Curacao! Just tried green iguana soup, and can highly recommend it!

Carolyn

Orkine

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2020, 09:24:09 PM »
Taste like chicken?

I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2020, 09:43:02 PM »
Taste like chicken?

I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?
It is a forum about fruit trees not about how does iguana meat tastes  ;D.
Iguana meat its good probably in somme survival situation.
Cook it well because it has 100% sure salmonella.
I know of more than 50 kids that all got in hospital after they ate mayonaise that had by mistake one raw duck egg in it, with salmonella.

Tommyng

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Re: Iguana removal opportunity with the cold
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2020, 11:16:06 PM »
Taste like chicken?

I know people eat them I have not had the courage or opportunity to try it.
Can you describe what it tasted like?

Orkine, they tastes like a chewy chicken. It’s quite good, and very lean.
Don’t rush, take time and enjoy life and food.

 

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