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Author Topic: Annona sp & link to parkinsons  (Read 3296 times)

sharkbait

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Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« on: April 18, 2020, 05:58:50 PM »
Here's a topic that has been discussed before, but now with new updates in the last ~8 years.  I'll note that I'm coming from the background of a hobby backyard grower of annona myself, and still intend to eat them in moderation.  I do not wish to discuss the epidemiological studies, which have already been beaten to death elsewhere on this forum.

Some of the newer studies have shown:
-NMR and liquid chromatography mass spec quantified the amount of annonacin and squamocin in the fruit pulp of graviola, atemoya (some posters previously argued it was only in the seed, and safe as long as spit out the seeds).  See this study for the numerical quantities of annonacin and squamocin:
https://www.scribd.com/document/314499988/FDA-Annona (google lc-ms and nmr analyses of neurotoxic fruits in the annonaceae family).  This study found approximately  1034 ug/g of annonacin in graviola pulp from brazil.  Atemoya pulp had lower quantity at 3.68 ug/g annonacin, but did have 76.2 ug/g of squamocin.

-pharmacokinetics studies show the oral bioavaibility of annonacin was approximately 3% in rats (https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0034-1394993)

-annonacin crosses the blood brain barrier once in the blood stream (Champy P, Hoglinger GU, Feger J, et al. Annonacin, a lipophilic inhibitor
of mitochondrial complex I, induces nigral and striatal neurodegeneration
in rats: possible relevance for atypical parkinsonism in Guadeloupe. J
Neurochem 2004;88:63-69. )

-annonacin and other acetogenins are powerful mitochondrial poisons (Acetogenins exhibit their neurotoxic and anticancer properties by inhibiting the mitochondrial NADH:ubiquinone oxidoreductase (complex I of the respiratory chain) (Höllerhage et al., 2009).)

One of the key issues in Parkinsonism-type syndromes is a reduction in nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons.  Once these neurons are gone in an adult, they don't grow back.  As an adult you have a certain number, and can only lose them..

There was a separate discussion on the growingfruit forum about the hand tremor that Neal Peterson has in some youtube grafting videos, with posters there making various inferences (https://vimeo.com/236955626).  He responded publically in that thread to those posters on the tremor (https://growingfruit.org/t/the-dangers-of-pawpaw-consumption/16536/48).  I won't write any opinion on that, read the thread and comments for yourself, just linking the prior discussion here.


The point of this is it does seem like these neurotoxic compounds are in the fruit pulps, and it also appears like eating said fruit will cause some of it to get absorbed.  To what degree they could cause an issue is unknown or in what quantities. 

Are you aware of these newer NMR/mass spec studies, and what are your thoughts?  I feel strongly that the poison is in the dose, and will continue to eat a few beloved cherimoya/atemoya here and there, just not daily. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 06:27:50 PM by sharkbait »

edzone9

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2020, 06:06:14 PM »
Big Pharma Disinformation...
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sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2020, 06:09:28 PM »
yes I am a secret agent for big pharma and have a tin foil hat

big pharma is faking those NMR numbers /s

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 06:28:45 PM »
.

Capt Ram

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 06:23:32 AM »
[Great info thanks, I had heard this is probably true with soursop but I had no idea it would have affect related fruits Anonas,



quote author=edzone9 link=topic=38943.msg385364#msg385364 date=1587247574]
Big Pharma Disinformation...
[/quote]
Www.sailing-charters.org

roblack

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 09:26:36 AM »
Makes me just a little less excited about my first atemoya and sugar apple fruits, and all those guanabana and rollinia ripening.

Obviously there is need for further research.

What if we find out mangoes are toxic? Don't think I could stop.

Thanks for posting.

Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 09:38:24 AM »
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

Another huge issue: where do people get this misinformation that cells don't regenerate I wonder ::) ANY cell in the human body is capable of regeneration, just need the right medium ;)

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 09:44:12 AM by Jabba The Hutt »

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 09:42:16 AM »
Makes me just a little less excited about my first atemoya and sugar apple fruits, and all those guanabana and rollinia ripening.

Obviously there is need for further research.

What if we find out mangoes are toxic? Don't think I could stop.

Thanks for posting.

lol that is my issue.  i think they taste too good to stop, and the research isn't there to prove stopping altogether.  I do think it would be more of a well known issue if these fruits were just causing problems all over, but its a relatively quiet issue. 

I mostly grow atemoya and those have lower concentrations of annonacin, but still about half the graviola dose of squamocin if that study is true.  my plan is just to share more of my harvest with others. 

luckily with mangos the big issue is a contact dermatitis.  i could care less if my hands turn a little red and indurated from touching...i can always just wear gloves

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 09:44:03 AM »
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)

why not? plenty of physiological active compounds and drugs have multiple effects, side effects, differing effects on different tissues.  Also these fruits have a plethora of compounds and isomers of those compounds, which will all have different effects.

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2020, 09:45:56 AM »
.

Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2020, 09:49:33 AM »
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)

why not? plenty of physiological active compounds and drugs have multiple effects, side effects, differing effects on different tissues
Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 09:57:33 AM by Jabba The Hutt »

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2020, 09:55:05 AM »

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron
[/quote]

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2020, 10:01:31 AM »
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!
[/quote]

loss of nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 10:03:30 AM by sharkbait »

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2020, 10:04:12 AM »
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!


loss of CNS nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs or w/ experimental treatments might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
[/quote]

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2020, 10:04:27 AM »
.

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2020, 10:04:44 AM »
.

sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2020, 10:05:36 AM »
.

Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2020, 10:07:11 AM »

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
[/quote]
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.

Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2020, 10:24:42 AM »
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!


loss of nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
[/quote]


I love that statement... Why do you think ANY medical treatment is designed to address the symptoms and not the ROOT CAUSE ;)

I know the answer to this, I would imagine you are intelligent enough to, I just wish more people would get to the root of things. Maybe they would if we had a more honest, straightforward community of health practitioners whose main priority would be integrity instead of narcissism ;)

I'm not here to throw around accolades, I'm not narcissistic... I have worked in the field of medicine and have a great understanding is all I'll say.

That being said, whatever you are quoting keeps using the word typically and usually. I'm an optimistic person, I'll take the regeneration and not tell people something is impossible when it is not.

edzone9

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2020, 10:47:26 AM »
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

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Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2020, 10:59:46 AM »
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

Amen brother!  There's the spirit. Wish more people had the common sense to investigate what they are putting into their bodies... ;)

NateTheGreat

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2020, 11:57:14 AM »

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.
[/quote]

It is not counterproductive to kill cancer cells. Sometimes the cost is too great, but it is productive. What cancer treatments you are referring to that regenerate cells?

For those saying we'd have seen the effects, or that time has shown these are safe, we have seen the effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592

It seems like stem or leaf tea is a bad idea. Soursop and pawpaw fruits are probably safe, but more research is needed. Not more sticking heads in the sand cause you don't like what the research says, calling it disinformation, and saying you know more about medicine than the researchers.



edzone9

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2020, 12:50:15 PM »
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

Amen brother!  There's the spirit. Wish more people had the common sense to investigate what they are putting into their bodies... ;)

Those with ears to hear...
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Jabba The Hutt

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2020, 12:51:37 PM »

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.

It is not counterproductive to kill cancer cells. Sometimes the cost is too great, but it is productive. What cancer treatments you are referring to that regenerate cells?

For those saying we'd have seen the effects, or that time has shown these are safe, we have seen the effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592

It seems like stem or leaf tea is a bad idea. Soursop and pawpaw fruits are probably safe, but more research is needed. Not more sticking heads in the sand cause you don't like what the research says, calling it disinformation, and saying you know more about medicine than the researchers.
[/quote]

I'm not claiming any anticancer treatment regenerates I'm saying it does the opposite...

If you get your lymphatic and eliminative systems (kidneys) working like they should then you shouldn't be seeing damaged cells, and if they are there then your body can eliminate them like it is meant to.

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(


sharkbait

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Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2020, 02:15:46 PM »

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

You have stated plenty of factual claims in this thread based off nothing but your opinion..  I've at least provided hard data (NMR and mass spec) backing up what I'm saying.  If you want to pretend like this is "fake news" and chemical analysis is made up, that is fine.

You do know plenty of natural substances are deadly or cause disease right.  I wouldn't recommend munching on datura or castor bean seeds for instance...both of which contain "natural" substances.  This idea that all natural plant based substances can't harm or do no wrong is moronic. 


 

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