Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??  (Read 1359 times)

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Hi everybody-

I was watching a video of Richard Campbell showing off his home collection and picked up his referencing some of his mangoes being on dwarf rootstock. He seemed to be indicating grafting onto dwarf rootstock was effective for limiting tree size. Anybody have any success with this approach? What dwarf varieties would you recommend? I'm in Sarasota, not many sources around here for particular mango varieties, so I figure I'll need to order a box from somewhere or make a road trip.

BTW, I have a spreadsheet of mango varieties that lists the following as dwarf:
ORANGE ESSENCE
JAKARTA
COTTON CANDY
UGLY BETTY
Graham
JULIE
FLORIGON
ALAMPUR BANESHAN
VENUS
ROSIGOLD
MALLIKA
IRWIN
ICE CREAM
DIAMOND
JULIETTE
FAIRCHILD
HONEY KISS
Neelam
NELPETITE
TOLEDO  (CUBAN)

561MangoFanatic

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • Loxahatchee, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2020, 02:40:06 PM »
I believe Julie is the only true dwarf.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 06:20:00 PM by 561MangoFanatic »
Sergio

murahilin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3194
    • USA Greenacres, Florida Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 08:08:41 PM »
Hi everybody-

I was watching a video of Richard Campbell showing off his home collection and picked up his referencing some of his mangoes being on dwarf rootstock. He seemed to be indicating grafting onto dwarf rootstock was effective for limiting tree size. Anybody have any success with this approach? What dwarf varieties would you recommend? I'm in Sarasota, not many sources around here for particular mango varieties, so I figure I'll need to order a box from somewhere or make a road trip.

BTW, I have a spreadsheet of mango varieties that lists the following as dwarf:
ORANGE ESSENCE
JAKARTA
COTTON CANDY
UGLY BETTY
Graham
JULIE
FLORIGON
ALAMPUR BANESHAN
VENUS
ROSIGOLD
MALLIKA
IRWIN
ICE CREAM
DIAMOND
JULIETTE
FAIRCHILD
HONEY KISS
Neelam
NELPETITE
TOLEDO  (CUBAN)

Where did you get that spreadsheet?

MangoCountry

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • Southeast Florida 10a/b
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2020, 08:25:05 PM »
Many of those are not “dwarf”, in fact quite the opposite

561MangoFanatic

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • Loxahatchee, FL
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2020, 09:56:26 PM »
Hi everybody-

I was watching a video of Richard Campbell showing off his home collection and picked up his referencing some of his mangoes being on dwarf rootstock. He seemed to be indicating grafting onto dwarf rootstock was effective for limiting tree size. Anybody have any success with this approach? What dwarf varieties would you recommend? I'm in Sarasota, not many sources around here for particular mango varieties, so I figure I'll need to order a box from somewhere or make a road trip.

BTW, I have a spreadsheet of mango varieties that lists the following as dwarf:
ORANGE ESSENCE
JAKARTA
COTTON CANDY
UGLY BETTY
Graham
JULIE
FLORIGON
ALAMPUR BANESHAN
VENUS
ROSIGOLD
MALLIKA
IRWIN
ICE CREAM
DIAMOND
JULIETTE
FAIRCHILD
HONEY KISS
Neelam
NELPETITE
TOLEDO  (CUBAN)

From one of the videos I’ve seen with Dr Campbell, he uses a “super” dwarfing rootstock he is privy to.
Sergio

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 10:48:48 AM »
Where did you get that spreadsheet?

Well, I don't really want to say, since it has become apparent the varieties it lists as dwarf is very wrong (don't want to tarnish any reputations on the internet). I spoke with someone at Tropical Acres Farms yesterday, they were very helpful and also brought up a good point regarding seed types. I need to pick a poly, not a mono, because the mono seed could take after it's father size-wise (which would be an unknown). They recommended Rosiegold as a poly, compact grower, but I can't find confirmation that it's a true dwarf.

I did some more searching on here and came up with this thread on Compact Mango Suggestions: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17443.0
Lots of varieties on there, but also lots of conflicting reports. I keyworded on "dwarf" and it seemed every time dwarf was mentioned it was someone saying a particular variety was not a true dwarf. What varieties ARE true dwarfs is never mentioned. I've searched google on multiple terms, I cannot find an authoritative list or mention of true dwarfs. Any of you more knowledgeable mango growers know of any true dwarfs?

Brev Grower

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
  • Will trade mango scions
    • USA , Florida, Brevard county
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 11:05:23 AM »
The only true dwarf mangoes are Julie and possibly Pickering and maybe ice cream. Semi dwarf wold be Graham, Rosigold, Honey kiss, Neelam. The rest I believe are pretty much full size although some are easier to manage size on. That "super dwarfing roostock" of Dr. Campbell's I'm sure will not be available to us common folk anytime soon.

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 11:27:33 AM »
Julie is unfortunately mono, Pickering is poly but seems to be a semi-dwarf from the reports I read.  Graham, Honey Kiss and Neelam are all also mono. Rosiegold, like Pickering, is poly and a semi-dwarf.

I'm starting to get the distinct feeling a poly true dwarf might not be easy to come by....

fliptop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • SWFL10a
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 01:29:55 PM »
Pickering is monoembryonic.

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2654
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2020, 06:53:49 PM »
Dwarf Hawai'ian is a healthy dwarf, not overly runty as Julie tends to be.  You don't need to prune it for size control for about 15 years.
Har

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2020, 08:01:04 AM »
Pickering is monoembryonic.

Truly Tropical reports Pickering to be poly-embryonic in the fact sheet from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_tlnFATIj4
and also from a user here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2779.msg39261#msg39261

fliptop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • SWFL10a
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2020, 08:06:16 AM »
 Typos (and perhaps even a chance poly seed from a mono type?) happen.

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2020, 08:15:29 AM »
Dwarf Hawai'ian is a healthy dwarf, not overly runty as Julie tends to be.  You don't need to prune it for size control for about 15 years.
Thank you Har, but isn't DH mono-embryonic?

Vernmented

  • Starry Nursery/Plant Hoarder/Zone Pusher/Biochar Enthusiast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • USA, Florida, Sarasota, 9B/10A
    • View Profile
    • Starry Nursery Instagram
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 10:55:17 AM »
Pickering is monoembryonic.

Truly Tropical reports Pickering to be poly-embryonic in the fact sheet from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_tlnFATIj4
and also from a user here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2779.msg39261#msg39261



It seems like some mangoes have both poly and mono seeds. That is what I experienced with Orange Sherbet although I didn’t open the seed up and inspect for multiple embryos.
-Josh

Vernmented

  • Starry Nursery/Plant Hoarder/Zone Pusher/Biochar Enthusiast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • USA, Florida, Sarasota, 9B/10A
    • View Profile
    • Starry Nursery Instagram
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2020, 11:01:54 AM »
I have a very dwarf Indian style mango that was sold to me as Amrapali but after comparing with Squam it is something else. He has the real Amrapali which is also very dwarf.
-Josh

Vernmented

  • Starry Nursery/Plant Hoarder/Zone Pusher/Biochar Enthusiast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • USA, Florida, Sarasota, 9B/10A
    • View Profile
    • Starry Nursery Instagram
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2020, 11:27:57 AM »
I don't want to disclose the location of this out of respect for the owner but here is an experimental dwarf mango grove. You can clearly see the incompatibility at the graft union.








Some of Richard Campbell's mangos probably have some sort of rootstock genetic component to keeping them small but the main thing he preaches depriving them of nutrition and planting in busted up limestone caprock. Planting them in sand and giving them micros and potassium would help to limit size but you would have to keep them away from your other trees since most species like richer soil and nutrition. 
-Josh

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2020, 11:39:56 AM »
What I really wanted to give a try was double-stone grafting dwarfish rootstocks onto a big tree scion. Hoping I can introduce precociousness and limit growth vigor at the same time. I have a few double-stone grafts going strong from last season, but the rootstock is Tommy Atkins, so it's still probably going to want to be a huge tree in short order.

Vernmented

  • Starry Nursery/Plant Hoarder/Zone Pusher/Biochar Enthusiast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • USA, Florida, Sarasota, 9B/10A
    • View Profile
    • Starry Nursery Instagram
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2020, 12:25:12 PM »
What I really wanted to give a try was double-stone grafting dwarfish rootstocks onto a big tree scion. Hoping I can introduce precociousness and limit growth vigor at the same time. I have a few double-stone grafts going strong from last season, but the rootstock is Tommy Atkins, so it's still probably going to want to be a huge tree in short order.

All my multi roots have explosive growth.
-Josh

Vernmented

  • Starry Nursery/Plant Hoarder/Zone Pusher/Biochar Enthusiast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • USA, Florida, Sarasota, 9B/10A
    • View Profile
    • Starry Nursery Instagram
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2020, 12:33:09 PM »
What I really wanted to give a try was double-stone grafting dwarfish rootstocks onto a big tree scion. Hoping I can introduce precociousness and limit growth vigor at the same time. I have a few double-stone grafts going strong from last season, but the rootstock is Tommy Atkins, so it's still probably going to want to be a huge tree in short order.

Maybe experiment with different species or try interstocking to get some incompatibility. You can always hose them down with paclobutrazol like the rest of the world and markintexas does. I heard reproductive harm and brain lesion rumors though. I also recall reading about grafting scions or interstocks upside down?? Something like that. 
-Josh

JakeFruit

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Gulf Coast of Florida
    • zone 10A
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2020, 07:44:42 PM »
Maybe experiment with different species or try interstocking to get some incompatibility. You can always hose them down with paclobutrazol like the rest of the world and markintexas does. I heard reproductive harm and brain lesion rumors though. I also recall reading about grafting scions or interstocks upside down?? Something like that.
Experimenting I am. I assume interstocking is grafting onto a rootstock and then grafting again onto that (so a section of the trunk is a different variety from the rootstock and the top). Grafting the interstock upside down seems like a wild idea, has that really been tried?

JulianoGS

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
    • USA, South Florida
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 11:27:56 PM »
Dwarf Hawaiian is a true dwarf tree as Har has pointed out.
Blessed are all who fear the LORD, who walk in obedience to him.
You will eat the fruit of your labor; blessings and prosperity will be yours.

Psalms 128

Nyuu

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • Florida , lake placid 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2020, 12:53:15 PM »
TOLEDO mango is a slow-growing so maybe good if it a try maybe lower the vigorous growth some mango tree Thai everbearing other slow growing too

TonyinCC

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Trying to enjoy home grown fruit 12 months a year
    • Cape Coral,FL
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2020, 06:57:40 PM »
I wonder if using Pickering as a rootstock or as an interstem might impart improved productivity, precocity and improved disease tolerance(more iffy but a possibility) to scions grafted onto it???
 Since there are no commonly available dwarf rootstocks,  it seems worth a try.
Similar strategies with apple rootstocks having desirable characteristics have improved productivity,fruit size and increased fruit crops at a young age. I wonder if very resinous rootstocks might discourage insect damage to mangos.
If I had the room I would put Pickering and Little Gem to the test as rootsock/interstems because of tree health and productivity. Maybe it is the scion variety more so than the rootstock that makes those two productive??
 Little Gem has the smallest seeds I have ever seen in a mango. Not sure if it is Poly or Mono, the one seed I opened today had an aborted non viable seed about the size of a pinto bean inside the husk. Now I am wondering if that isn't the norm for that variety. There almost isn't room inside them for a "normal sized" embryo. A lifesaver candy barely fit inside the empty husk, so an embryo can't be much bigger than the size of a lima bean. Will have to open more of the seeds as I eat them over the next month. Maybe it sets so many fruit because it doesn't need pollination?
I have heard some mango varieties can produce seedless "nubbin" fruits.
 It might be worth a trial as an interstem if it has trouble producing viable seeds, but IF it produces fruit without pollination that is unlikely to affect the scion's need for pollen.
I think Glenn seedlings might make good rootstock or used as interstem.
Is Turpentine MBSS tolerant? Does rootstock susceptibility matter for MBSS?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:53:26 PM by TonyinCC »

Nyuu

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • Florida , lake placid 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2020, 07:29:04 PM »
You see TOLEDO mango seed poly  mango is close to smallest mangoes in the world

TonyinCC

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Trying to enjoy home grown fruit 12 months a year
    • Cape Coral,FL
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Mango Rootstock to limit tree size? Recommendations??
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2020, 07:45:41 PM »
Does Toledo have small seed small fruit or smallest tree?

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers