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Author Topic: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.  (Read 644 times)

Citradia

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Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 06:50:17 PM »
I planted this ichangensis seedling last year to see if itís really hardy to zero degrees. Itís not. Low of 19 this past warm winter, and it and another one died to the ground. Iím a sap, so I let it shoot up from roots and the thing decides to make a flower. My seedling 80-5 did fine and Dunstan and citradia and thomasville are fine. Ichangensis out.








SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2020, 07:05:33 PM »
I planted a 5 inch tall ichangensis, growing on its own roots (not grafted that is, grew it from a cutting), in Olympia, WA (zone 8a) and it survived through this winter.

Here is a picture of it now:



The dark reddish leaves are new growth.

(also it was not covered or protected)

You might notice that even though it is June, the new leaf growth is still red colored, since temperatures do not start rising enough for citrus to put out growth until fairly late in the year here.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 07:14:16 PM by SoCal2warm »

lavender87

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2020, 08:00:06 PM »
Ichangensis seedlings are not true to seeds, so I guess that is why the one from Citradia and Socal2warm are different to the look. The ichangensis tree from Citradia' pictures seems to have asymetrical leaves which has much smaller pediole. The one I have has leaves that look similar to the one in Socal2warm' picture, but, as I noticed, young leaves has never had the dark purple color.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 08:15:08 PM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2020, 08:40:58 PM »
The one I have has leaves that look similar to the one in Socal2warm' picture, but, as I noticed, young leaves has never had the dark purple color.
That could possibly be due to the climate here. Even as of June 15, the temperature in the middle of the day today (5:00) is still only 62 degrees (F).

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2020, 08:58:30 PM »
The leaves shown in Citradia's picture look more like Ichang lemon than Ichang papeda.

Citradia, it's possible that may not be a real C. ichangensis, and if it did indeed come from a real ichangensis, maybe it got pollinated by something else and you may now have an interesting new hybrid.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 09:01:28 PM by SoCal2warm »

Citradia

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2020, 09:32:17 PM »
I planted the seeds myself from an ichangensis fruit. If itís a hybrid, oh well, itís not very cold hardy, so it can freeze to death again for all I care. I was hoping for something slightly better than poncirus that could survive here without having to build a greenhouse around it, but that dream is dead. I have plenty of good quality citrus grafted on trifoliata that I cover and heat in winter, so thatís all that matters anyway. Sorry for the negativity, but Iíve had a bad day; Today I cut down eleven apricot, plum, and other trees that have underperformed for the past several years. Iím sick of plants Iíve put so much effort into that just donít work. Itís ironic that I get better quality and quantity fruit production out of my satsumas and grapefruit here in NC with winter protection than I get out of apples, peaches, plums. The only things that I get a harvest from here are grafted citrus, Montmorancy cherries, blueberries, and rowan, paw paw. Whole point of this post was the weird flower on the doomed fake Ichang whatever it is. Peace out.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2020, 09:36:52 PM »
I planted the seeds myself from an ichangensis fruit.
Sorry, Citradia, you're not really giving us enough details here.

The fruit, did it come from a plant you yourself were able to see? If so, how did the leaves on that parent plant look?

If itís a hybrid, oh well, itís not very cold hardy, so it can freeze to death again for all I care.
Citradia, you're in zone 6b. Many others in zones 7 to 8 might be interested in such a new hybrid, assuming it's not just Ichang lemon.
Which would again depend on details you have not given us.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 09:38:26 PM by SoCal2warm »

Millet

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2020, 10:31:37 PM »
Citradia,, the sun will come up tomorrow.  You can watch the sunrise from the mountain top.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2020, 11:47:14 PM »
Sorry for the negativity, but Iíve had a bad day; Today I cut down eleven apricot, plum, and other trees that have underperformed for the past several years. Iím sick of plants Iíve put so much effort into that just donít work. Itís ironic that I get better quality and quantity fruit production out of my satsumas and grapefruit here in NC with winter protection than I get out of apples, peaches, plums. The only things that I get a harvest from here are grafted citrus, Montmorancy cherries, blueberries, and rowan, paw paw.
Not to get too off-topic, but it's the climate.
Ironically, the same reason why your citrus is able to put on so much growth during much of the year is likely the same reason why your apricot and plum trees do not do so well; it's the heat and humidity. Apricots tend to do much better in the drier Western half of the US. Where you are, I would imagine the trees would require a lot of spray to keep the disease level down, not to mention insect pests.

As for peaches, you're also a little too far north (on the East Coast) to get good consistent crops, since the blossoms are vulnerable to late spring freezes.

I would imagine persimmons would do well for you (although it might be beneficial to choose the slightly hardier varieties).


This link might be useful to you and gives a listing of late-blooming fruit varieties that can help avoid damage from spring frosts:
https://midwestpermaculture.com/2017/03/late-flowering-fruit-trees-avoid-frost-damage/


I was hoping for something slightly better than poncirus that could survive here without having to build a greenhouse around it
You are in climate zone 6b ! Not a lot in the citrus family is going to be able to survive there, unprotected. Have you tried US 852 ? That's about the only thing I can think of that's a little better than poncirus that may be able to survive for you.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 12:01:25 AM by SoCal2warm »

lavender87

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 12:52:50 AM »
I planted this ichangensis seedling last year to see if itís really hardy to zero degrees. Itís not. Low of 19 this past warm winter, and it and another one died to the ground. Iím a sap, so I let it shoot up from roots and the thing decides to make a flower.

I've just wondered how a seedling could flower that soon at a very age. It sound similar to saying a young girl 7 year old gave birth to a child.

mikkel

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 02:16:31 AM »
I also found this "flower at the top" in some Ichangensis seedlings. Only a very few of hundreds. Some N1tri seedlings (an Ichangensis hybrid) have also flowered in the first year. All of them did not flower the next year. Only 1 Ichang Papeda seedling started to flower regularly again at the age of 4 years.
Your seedling does not look like a pure Ichang Papeda. But even pure Ichang Papeda are not as hardy to me as Poncirus.


countryboy1981

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 07:38:53 AM »
I planted the seeds myself from an ichangensis fruit. If itís a hybrid, oh well, itís not very cold hardy, so it can freeze to death again for all I care. I was hoping for something slightly better than poncirus that could survive here without having to build a greenhouse around it, but that dream is dead. I have plenty of good quality citrus grafted on trifoliata that I cover and heat in winter, so thatís all that matters anyway. Sorry for the negativity, but Iíve had a bad day; Today I cut down eleven apricot, plum, and other trees that have underperformed for the past several years. Iím sick of plants Iíve put so much effort into that just donít work. Itís ironic that I get better quality and quantity fruit production out of my satsumas and grapefruit here in NC with winter protection than I get out of apples, peaches, plums. The only things that I get a harvest from here are grafted citrus, Montmorancy cherries, blueberries, and rowan, paw paw. Whole point of this post was the weird flower on the doomed fake Ichang whatever it is. Peace out.

I gave up on apple trees which I threw into the burn pile along with a santa rosa plum.tree.  I am growing jujubes instead of apples and have a UF plum tree and AU plum trees which are much more resistant to diseases.

Florian

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2020, 07:46:10 AM »
 19F/-7C seems weak. Any true Citrus ichangensis should be able to take more. I think Ilya said that Citrus ichangensis breaks dormancy quickly and is subsequently more vulnerable to (late) frosts and can be easily damaged at much higher temps than normal. I have never had this with my Citrus ichangensis but it is grafted on Poncirus. There is a fella near Cologne (GER) who has a seed-grown, fruiting tree which he claims is very coldhardy (also, the fruit are rather large and nearly seedless).

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2020, 08:21:12 AM »
Ichangensis (even the IVIA-clones) is quite hardy and can take down to -15įC. Of cause you have to protect young or newly planted trees in the first years (against winter sun for example) For me they do better on their own roots than they do on PT. But they have to establish well. Like all frost hardy citrus. That is essential.

mikkel

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 11:18:44 AM »
a flowering Ichang Papeda seedling in my backyard. A very tiny plant. Probably not a pure one.


SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2020, 03:59:30 PM »
a flowering Ichang Papeda seedling in my backyard. A very tiny plant. Probably not a pure one.
I don't know, it is very hard to tell. The petioles in that picture look big enough that it just might be possible it could be pure ichangensis, but they also look significantly smaller enough that it really might not be.

If it is not pure, I would think it would probably have to be some ichangensis x ichangensis hybrid of some sort, maybe ichangensis x yuzu.

I grew several seedlings from ichangquat, and they displayed a variety of different leaf types, but none of them looked so close to ichangensis as that.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2020, 04:03:04 PM »
Citradia, could you tell us where you got the fruit from? Were you able to see the parent tree that the fruit came from? Did the leaves on the parent tree look similar to that seedling, or did they look more like ichangensis leaves, with a very symmetrically sized leaf petiole?

That will help us determine what your seedling might actually be.

Citradia

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2020, 06:54:24 PM »
I got seed from fruit I acquired at a citrus expo years ago in SC the fruit came from Woodlanders in Aiken, SC. I havenít seen the tree it came from.

Citradia

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2020, 07:19:54 PM »
SoCal2warm, youíre right about the apricots and plums getting flowers frosted in late spring freezes here. Have you ever lived in the mountains of western NC? It is not as hot and humid here as the rest of the southeast. Iím used to having to spray for pests and diseases here. Thatís not why I cut my trees down. The trees were perfectly healthy. I cut them down out of frustration because of massive fruit drop which was a combination of too much rain this year and plum curculio. I hadnít had a crop of plums or apricot in 5 years due to spring freezes, and this year I was expecting a crop to no avail. I was growing late blooming varieties. Furthermore, itís not warm enough here for great citrus growth during my short growing season; it was 50 degrees this morning and we are not getting into the 70ís this week. My owari just finished blooming last week and Kimbrough still has some flowers on it. Iíve always had a peach crop here as peach blossom can withstand 23 degrees in spring; plum and apricot blooms canít take a freeze. Iíve seen apple blossoms survive 19 degrees.  And furthermore, SoCal2warm, if I donít give you all the details about my plants or where I got them from, realize that I donít have to tell you. And, I donít need you telling me my problem is my climate. Iím not not new. Been here 21 years.  My post wasnít a cry for help, it was a personal rant, and I apologize for ranting, but I really did find the bloom on the seedling interesting. Thank you, Millet for your kind words of encouragement. Blessings to you all.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2020, 12:50:31 AM »
Sorry if I got kind of short with you. I was in a frustrated mood (not really about you, it involved a discussion in another forum).
And sorry for underestimating your knowledge of fruit tree growing.

I do get frustrated at people when they post something, but don't bother posting [what I feel are] the critical details.

For example, when people post a picture of something that is growing for them outside, but they don't say where they are, what climate zone, whether they protected it over the winter, etc, it's almost worthless for them to share that without the information.

I feel sorry for you you're having so much trouble. As you well know, your spot is probably not the most ideal for explorations into permaculture, as beautiful as the spot might otherwise be.

I don't want to get too far off-topic, but I've developed a theory that the reason the North American continent (north of Mexico) wasn't very populated was simply that so much of the climate is not very conducive to agriculture, for one reason of another. It was not until widescale irrigation much later, and all the technology that went along with that, that allowed crops to be grown in dry areas.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 12:54:42 AM by SoCal2warm »

Citradia

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2020, 07:03:22 AM »
Back to topic: I planted the seedling And one of its siblings outside last spring when it was about a foot tall. I know thatís probably too young to try outside here, but I had too many seedling trees of different varieties and wanted to experiment with the ichangensis. Both froze down almost to ground despite covering one with frost cloth and surrounding the tree with gallon water bottles. The one featured here with bloom was covered a few times when temps got into low twenties or 19 degrees with the same plastic sheeting over pvc frame, with water jugs around it and small space heater; it was one big sheet of 4 mil plastic covering my 5 ft tall citradia and the baby ichangensis 10 ft away from it. I know these varieties shouldnít need protection in the twenties, but this was early in winter and didnít want them to undergo a severe long duration freeze too early before going dormant. I donít think the ichangensis got much heat from heater since it was closer to the citradia with fan pointed toward ichangensis. Neither ichangensis grew very much last year neither although planted in same area as poncirus hybrids that did produce good growth. The soil isnít red clay, but actually black well-drained sandy soil with some clay and crushed granite on sloping land. I think the seedling blooming out of stress of near death more than being precocious since it nor any of its siblings havenít bloomed before.

hardyvermont

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Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2020, 11:02:35 AM »
Hardening before winter can be more important than variety.  Several seedlings of different hardy crosses died back to the ground last year, while neglected Owari growing in cups and underfertilized  survived the winter unscathed. 

 

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