kishu mandarin x poncirus?

[vnomonee]

Has anyone heard of this cross? I know there are already mandarin + poncirus crosses, such as the US 852 but those hybrids ripen in late fall/early winter after heavy frosts that damage fruit in lower zones.

Kishu mandarins (Citrus kinokuni mukakukishu) are very small mandarins which are seedless. The tree bears early, found a blog where someone had ripe fruit in September, so the fruit can ripen in the early fall or sooner, and is still edible when the peels are not fully orange.

It will be a few years, and I am a complete novice don't get me wrong, but I am interested in creating this cross using a better tasting Poncirus+ (I am acquiring this tree from a member of this forum) as the mother to possibly create a cold hardy hybrid tree for zone 7. 

Thoughts?

[SoCal2warm]

Kishu is one of the mandarin varieties that produce all zygotic seed, so that bodes well for such a cross.

There are many other mandarins that produce mostly nucellar seed, that are just clones of the parent regardless of what it was pollinated by.

[Ilya11]

Seedless Kishu (Mukaku kishu) is completely seedless due to the abortion of all embryos early in development, but the pollen is fertile and several valuable hybrids were produced in Japan, including Southern Yellow that inherited seedlessness. This could be a problem in your project, since you will probably need subsequent crosses to other varieties to achieve some degree  of sweetness and will be obliged to use only pollen.

[kumin]

I'm not familiar with the Early St Ann Satsuma which was discovered in Louisiana. As per description, it ripens in September/October and is nearly seedless. Being a Satsuma it may be highly nucellar in reproduction, however, Poncirus+ is reputed to be acceptably zygotic, allowing it to be the seed parent. Perhaps someone can comment on St Ann Satsuma pollen fertility.

[Millet]

Ilya11, tell us about Southern Yellow.  I have never heard of it, and I'm sure many on this forum, if not most, have never heard of it.  Is it a mandarin?  I typed "Southern Yellow" on the Internet but found nothing.

[Walt]

I have aquired seedless Kishu with the intent to cross the seedless trait into my breeding population.  So obviously I think it is a good idea.  Let us know how it goes.  Given that you are in zone 7, you might get seedless citandarins in the F2 that are hardy in your zone.  All the citandarins I'm tasted have been very sour, but I liked the juice with water and stevia extract to sweeten it.   Keep us up to date on your work.
I have tasted Clem tri clem (Cementine x trifoliate) x Clementine.  It was sour too.  But I've read that Dr. Brown had some 3/4 mandarins that were good.

[Ilya11]

Ilya11, tell us about Southern Yellow.  I have never heard of it, and I'm sure many on this forum, if not most, have never heard of it.  Is it a mandarin?  I typed "Southern Yellow" on the Internet but found nothing.

Millet, it is a kind of seedless sweet pomelo.
Here some pictures of it

[vnomonee]

I have aquired seedless Kishu with the intent to cross the seedless trait into my breeding population.  So obviously I think it is a good idea.  Let us know how it goes.  Given that you are in zone 7, you might get seedless citandarins in the F2 that are hardy in your zone.  All the citandarins I'm tasted have been very sour, but I liked the juice with water and stevia extract to sweeten it.   Keep us up to date on your work.
I have tasted Clem tri clem (Cementine x trifoliate) x Clementine.  It was sour too.  But I've read that Dr. Brown had some 3/4 mandarins that were good.

I tasted a clem tri clem fruit (and agree it was sour with a hint of "kerosene" in the pith, maybe from the trifoliate in it) but it wasn't horrible and definitely could be used to make juice! I planted all of the seeds, the ones that came up had tiny leaves and not much vigor. All of the seedlings I had never grew up and perished after a short time for some reason. I have successfully grown an abundance of citrus seedlings from seeds so I don't know if it was something I did or if it was poor genetics in the seeds of that particular fruit. Even if this project turns up with nothing more than slightly more edible ornamental fruit than straight up poncirus it would be a success for me

[vnomonee]

I will definitely look into an early Satsuma, that would seem like a good choice considering the fruit is larger than the Kishu.

[Ilya11]

Satsumas are highly nucellar and their flowers are rarely contain pollen.

[Laaz]

https://www.oishisojapan.com/home/2017/11/22/citrus-japanese-fruit-kankitsukei



Bergamot

A natural hybrid of bitter orange and lemon, bergamot grows all around the Seto Inland Sea area where it is known by a variety of names, including the Southern Yellow pictured here. It is a fragrant, juicy citrus with a kick of spice in its flavor that makes it very appealing and versatile in cooking. Its peel, juice, and segments are used in hot and cold drinks, salads and dressings, as a garnish for seafood and meat dishes or an ingredient in their marinades and glazes, and for jams, marmalades, and desserts. Softer and sweeter than other tart cooking citrus, its luscious spicy richness can also be enjoyed raw.

Season: November - January
Prime Location: Kochi Prefecture

[Laaz]

https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/132/6/article-p869.xml

[SoCal2warm]

Seedless Kishu (Mukaku kishu) is completely seedless due to the abortion of all embryos early in development,

Kishu will occasionally have a seed or two in one of the fruits, but the great majority of fruits have none.

Satsumas are highly nucellar and their flowers are rarely contain pollen.

And likewise Satsumas can be used as a pollinator in hybridization, but are just a very poor pollinator, since most of the pollen is inviable.

I have a source that says 90 percent of the seeds in Satsuma are nucellar.
That would make using Satsuma as the female parent difficult, but not impossible.

[vnomonee]

Small update:

I ordered a Xie Shan satsuma in the fall. It was lost in the USPS mail hold up for a month so it arrived dead (moldy and rotting down to the root stock). I'll have a replacement in the spring along with a Meiwa Kumquat (always wanted one, they are said to be sweet versus tart variety sold in U.S supermarkets). I've also acquired a Poncirus+ from Kumin in the forums.

An another note, my nephews were eating kishu mandarins this week and I've told them if they ever find a seed to save it which they did. So now I have a lone seed that I've planted, whatever grows may be a hybrid if it didn't pollinate itself? 

I'm also learning to graft things. Have tried different techniques, so far bud grafts from scions have taken on two seedling rootstocks.

[Radoslav]

Ilya11, tell us about Southern Yellow.  I have never heard of it, and I'm sure many on this forum, if not most, have never heard of it.  Is it a mandarin?  I typed "Southern Yellow" on the Internet but found nothing.

If you want to know more about it, copy  サザンイエロー   to google

[swincher]

my nephews were eating kishu mandarins this week and I've told them if they ever find a seed to save it which they did. So now I have a lone seed that I've planted, whatever grows may be a hybrid if it didn't pollinate itself?

I also found a single kishu seed last week in a large bag of fruit, but I just threw it in my tub of misc citrus seeds to sprout, it'll never be identified again. I liked the idea of having mystery citrus seedlings but now I wish I'd kept that one separate.