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Author Topic: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion  (Read 588 times)

joe_OC

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Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« on: September 20, 2020, 01:48:31 PM »
I suggest people use the latin name for plants.  It removes a lot of confusion.  If we all can see the genus/species, it makes it a lot more straight-forward.  Trade names or 'Cultivars' can then be used to show differences within the same species.  I am trying to learn about Plinia and Myrciaria.  I am guilty of using the generic name of Jaboticaba as well. 

Jaboticaba45

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2020, 02:15:11 PM »
I do agree with what you are saying, but not many people really use the scientific name...but useing the scientific name will result in less confusion though. Artocarpus altilis all the way!
-Ryan

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2020, 03:23:59 PM »
We should all use scientific names more, but I find that using them in everyday conversation with other plant growers seems pretentious, even when we all know the Latin names. Also, jaboticabas are an argument against using scientific names because the taxonomy for jaboticabas is a mess. Some are hybrids. Some, Grimal being the most notable example, still do not have a species name. I have never seen any listing for Grimal other than Plinia sp.

Mike T

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2020, 05:43:35 AM »
Great topic and good points. Better to use latin names whenever confusion is possible. Subspecies, races, types, varieties, cultivars. selections, accessions, forms and lines are also getting confused in peoples minds. The terms species clusters, groups. complexes and composites can cause confusion as well. Some terms are ill-defined and a few mean the same thing.
Jaboticabas and citrus are perhaps two of the more difficult groups.

Mango Stein

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2020, 10:30:08 AM »
Joe_OC, you seem a little bit inexperienced to be suggesting something like this. We use a mix of both systems, it depends on what is in question. The first problem is that scientists reclassifying species is an ongoing process. Common names on the other hand are more stable. Secondly, a lot of things are unidentified. You would have a lot of different "Garcinia sp." and "Plinia sp." to disambiguate. Thirdly, as has been mentioned here, there are plenty of hybrids that don't always have a neat new binomial, especially when they can be F2 and F3 hybrids. I have asked botanists for the binomial of boysenberry and never gotten a consistent answer. Citrus and dragonfruit are quite messy, and you can't just use the genus name. Fourthly, there are a lot of repeated species names used in many genera. Take names like hispida, cuspidata, macrophylla, chinensis, indica, armeniaca. Saying the full binomial takes more syllables than is practical.

Think of it this way, you are never going to call a grape Vitis vinifera, or a peach Prunus persica. Once rarer things become a bit more established, the common name naturally takes over. Having two systems is more of a help than a hindrance in my view, both should be used in similar frequency.

Having said that, it is a problem that there can be too many common names that are synonyms - it's just something you have to deal with. Can you believe that there are still people who call carambola the "Five corner fruit"? At least star fruit has some imagination. My recent pet hate is hearing "Beach cambuca" for Myrciaria strigipes, when it should be Beach cabeludinha. Appropriating names for things that are not so closely related is dumb in my opinion. Indigenous names are becoming more popular, though they are often a mouthful and too repetitive as well. The best from each world will win out long term.
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Satya

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2020, 11:13:25 AM »
Joe_OC, you seem a little bit inexperienced to be suggesting something like this. We use a mix of both systems, it depends on what is in question. The first problem is that scientists reclassifying species is an ongoing process. Common names on the other hand are more stable. Secondly, a lot of things are unidentified. You would have a lot of different "Garcinia sp." and "Plinia sp." to disambiguate. Thirdly, as has been mentioned here, there are plenty of hybrids that don't always have a neat new binomial, especially when they can be F2 and F3 hybrids. I have asked botanists for the binomial of boysenberry and never gotten a consistent answer. Citrus and dragonfruit are quite messy, and you can't just use the genus name. Fourthly, there are a lot of repeated species names used in many genera. Take names like hispida, cuspidata, macrophylla, chinensis, indica, armeniaca. Saying the full binomial takes more syllables than is practical.

Think of it this way, you are never going to call a grape Vitis vinifera, or a peach Prunus persica. Once rarer things become a bit more established, the common name naturally takes over. Having two systems is more of a help than a hindrance in my view, both should be used in similar frequency.

Having said that, it is a problem that there can be too many common names that are synonyms - it's just something you have to deal with. Can you believe that there are still people who call carambola the "Five corner fruit"? At least star fruit has some imagination. My recent pet hate is hearing "Beach cambuca" for Myrciaria strigipes, when it should be Beach cabeludinha. Appropriating names for things that are not so closely related is dumb in my opinion. Indigenous names are becoming more popular, though they are often a mouthful and too repetitive as well. The best from each world will win out long term.

Very interesting. I think most of it what we see online is what name is easy to sell and what name will popularize a certain new species in the market place.  I am all for easy catchy common names for identified and popular varieties but feel like we should use scientific names for rare still not popular species and for those species that are different but have same common names in different cultures/countries.

p.s.- I googled beach cabeludinha and nothing came up, googled beach cambuca brought loads of etsy and ebay sales.

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2020, 01:18:14 PM »
Difficult, yes, but should be done.  Reality is, outside of grafted plants, there is no guarantee that you are going to get the exact traits of the mother plant.  But knowing the species is a good starting point.  If that information is not known, then it would clearly be understood. 

roblack

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2020, 01:30:57 PM »
I think those who feel strongly about the use of scientific names, should feel free to provide said nomenclature to any posts lacking such.

A bit like a mod, but friendlier and solely informative.

Some of us may lack access to a computer and online search capabilities, lol, or just don't care that much.

 

Epicatt2

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2020, 02:11:04 PM »
Here's my take on this thread with the following example . . . .

If you should happen to be given a plant which you are completely unfamiliar with, that you've never seen before, and the giver knows absolutely nothing about it other than that it's called 'the red flower' how do you look the plant up to know what it really is and how to take care of it if you only have a very generic common name?

But if you know its Latin binomial (scientific name) you wiil almost always be able to look it up and find out about it, unless of course it is so rare and little-known that there's almost no data published about it.

The usefulness/use of the Latin binomial can extend to the identification of known, cultivated plants, too, and once it's used in a discussion to clarify which species you are referring to then afterwards the common or cultivar name can suffice for continuing the discusion.

OK HTH

Paul M.
==

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2020, 02:12:45 PM »
Joe_OC, you seem a little bit inexperienced to be suggesting something like this. We use a mix of both systems, it depends on what is in question. The first problem is that scientists reclassifying species is an ongoing process. Common names on the other hand are more stable. Secondly, a lot of things are unidentified. You would have a lot of different "Garcinia sp." and "Plinia sp." to disambiguate. Thirdly, as has been mentioned here, there are plenty of hybrids that don't always have a neat new binomial, especially when they can be F2 and F3 hybrids. I have asked botanists for the binomial of boysenberry and never gotten a consistent answer. Citrus and dragonfruit are quite messy, and you can't just use the genus name. Fourthly, there are a lot of repeated species names used in many genera. Take names like hispida, cuspidata, macrophylla, chinensis, indica, armeniaca. Saying the full binomial takes more syllables than is practical.

Think of it this way, you are never going to call a grape Vitis vinifera, or a peach Prunus persica. Once rarer things become a bit more established, the common name naturally takes over. Having two systems is more of a help than a hindrance in my view, both should be used in similar frequency.

Having said that, it is a problem that there can be too many common names that are synonyms - it's just something you have to deal with. Can you believe that there are still people who call carambola the "Five corner fruit"? At least star fruit has some imagination. My recent pet hate is hearing "Beach cambuca" for Myrciaria strigipes, when it should be Beach cabeludinha. Appropriating names for things that are not so closely related is dumb in my opinion. Indigenous names are becoming more popular, though they are often a mouthful and too repetitive as well. The best from each world will win out long term.

I may be new to tropical fruit trees, but not new to plants... ;)

I never said to NOT use cultivar/common names...But there are same cultivar names being used for completely DIFFERENT species, within the same genus.   :o

All the other plant forums that I belong to: Palms / Orchids / Bromeliads, etc...that I belong to use scientific names with cultivar names. 

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2020, 03:18:05 PM »
It looks like the Forum Admins made it a requirement for scientific names in the "Tropical Vegetables and Other Edibles" room, but not the other rooms.   

NateTheGreat

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2020, 04:13:08 PM »
Which cultivar names are used for two cultivars of different species in the same genus? Usually it's the same cultivar with disagreements on what species it is, e.g. Eugenia calycina 'Nelita' vs Eugenia involucrata 'Nelita', Dream Annona vs Dream Atemoya, Plinia jaboticaba 'Sabara' vs Plinia cauliflora 'Sabara'.

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2020, 04:43:30 PM »
Which cultivar names are used for two cultivars of different species in the same genus? Usually it's the same cultivar with disagreements on what species it is, e.g. Eugenia calycina 'Nelita' vs Eugenia involucrata 'Nelita', Dream Annona vs Dream Atemoya, Plinia jaboticaba 'Sabara' vs Plinia cauliflora 'Sabara'.

Plinia aureana and Plinai phitrantha both have plants using the name 'Branca'.  This is not a case where there is disagreement regarding species.  These are TWO completely different plants. 

Mike T

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2020, 04:53:55 PM »
Yes but probably not species and try to find either in the wild.

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2020, 04:56:54 PM »
Yes but probably not species and try to find either in the wild.

That's not the point...It's great that growers are hybridizing and making new cultivars.  BUT with scientific naming and cultivar, everyone will know what exact plant they are talking about. 

Guanabanus

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2020, 10:20:10 PM »
This forum is not a professional society.  I like binomials, and I have used binomials too much in the past. I often found that they are unwelcome, and result in less communication, when one is dealing with the general public, as is very much the case with half or more of the readership here.
Har

joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2020, 10:41:12 PM »
This forum is not a professional society.  I like binomials, and I have used binomials too much in the past. I often found that they are unwelcome, and result in less communication, when one is dealing with the general public, as is very much the case with half or more of the readership here.

Societies are NOT professional.  Just people who have passion for certain plants.  I don't find using binomials being elitist or snobby or anything like that at all. 

Mango Stein

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2020, 10:59:45 PM »
The name Beach cambuca completely dominates in the English speaking world because whoever the first person was went with that name and then everyone copied him. So there's the answer to your popularity contest. You will find the name Beach cabeludinha (Cabulinha da praia) somewhat used in Brazil (http://www.colecionandofrutas.com.br/myrciariastrigipes.htm) though it takes a back seat to cambuca da praia. Old habits die hard. It must date back to a time when really few Myrtles were known about.

I highly doubt that there are two cultivars of "Branca" jaboticaba. Someone must have shortened "Branca vinho". Ask Adhemar Gomes in Casa Branca (whoops there's another Branca). A mistake was likely made outside of Brazil. You are right to notice that P. aureana and P. phitrantha are considered the same species by official taxonomy.
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joe_OC

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Re: Plant Naming Convention Suggestion
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2020, 11:25:34 PM »
The name Beach cambuca completely dominates in the English speaking world because whoever the first person was went with that name and then everyone copied him. So there's the answer to your popularity contest. You will find the name Beach cabeludinha (Cabulinha da praia) somewhat used in Brazil (http://www.colecionandofrutas.com.br/myrciariastrigipes.htm) though it takes a back seat to cambuca da praia. Old habits die hard. It must date back to a time when really few Myrtles were known about.

I highly doubt that there are two cultivars of "Branca" jaboticaba. Someone must have shortened "Branca vinho". Ask Adhemar Gomes in Casa Branca (whoops there's another Branca). A mistake was likely made outside of Brazil. You are right to notice that P. aureana and P. phitrantha are considered the same species by official taxonomy.


I doubt it as well, but there are at least two plants being called by that name by growers. 

 

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