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Author Topic: Seedling Mango tree thread  (Read 1297 times)

simon_grow

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Seedling Mango tree thread
« on: October 10, 2020, 07:03:55 PM »
Hello everyone, Iím starting this thread to track seed grown mango trees to fruition. I would like to gather information on the following:

1) Is it Polyembryonic or Monoembryonic?
2) How long did it take the seedling to fruit(include location)?
3) Growth habits of the tree, especially compared to maternal parent tree
4) Track production of the tree as it grows
5) If itís a Polyembryonic seedling:
5a) How many sprouts did you get from the seed?
5b) Which seedling(s) did you grow out? The largest, medium, smallest or all?
5c) Which of the seedlings came out true to variety? The largest, medium, smallest or all?
5d) If you only got a single sprout from a Polyembryonic seed variety, did it turn out to be a clone or the zygotic seedling?

Edited post to include link of Mono Vs Polyembryonic mango varieties

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=12030.0

It would be great to have pictures of the trees in different stages of growth. For Polyembryonic varieties, it would be especially important to track quality of fruit from the zygotic seedlings or off type seedlings from a Polyembryonic seed.

Iím especially interested in Polyembryonic off types because of the potential for superior fruit due to plants produced through selfing which sets the traits of that particular variety. A selfed mango flower is a flower of Sweet Tart for example, that was pollinated by itself(Sweet Tart). The resulting seedling is 100% Sweet Tart genetics but it is not a clone because there is a re arrangement of the chromosomes.

Actually, the zygotic seedling that was outcrossed with a different variety is just as interesting because of the increased genetic material incorporated by the pollinating parent. The increased genetic pool allows for a significantly higher chance that the resulting seedling will produce fruit that is much different than the maternal parent.

A Zygotic Sweet Tart seedling that was not selfed, for example, may produce fruit that tastes very different than the fruit produced from the maternal parent or a selfed seedling. This however, is highly unlikely because Sweet Tart is a variety that has certain dominant traits that have been concentrated or binned over the years.

Sweet Tart is a seedling of Zill Indochinese(ZIC) and both ZIC and Sweet Tart have that Indochinese flavor. Venus and Kathy(K3) are also descended from ZIC and they all have a similar Indochinese flavor according to my palate. Hey m not saying that they all taste the same but I can definitely detect that Indochinese flavor in all three.

We know that the Indochinese flavor is a heritable trait of ZIC seedlings but but we donít know if itís a simple dominant recessive trait or if itís a lot more complicated and involves multiple alleles.

I also want to mention that we donít have all the data. For example, how many ZIC seedlings did the Zillís plant out. If they planted out 100 ZIC seedlings and purposefully selected the seedlings that had the Indochinese flavor, then my statements above may be completely off base.

What if Sweet Tart, Venus and Kathy were the only seedlings out of the 100 that had the Indochinese flavor?

Iím pretty much just thinking (typing) out loud now but I hope that you can see that Iím just trying to gather as much data as possible. The more data we can collect, the more accurate of a picture we can create and the better we will begin to understand and perhaps predict which seedlings may give better fruit.

Many members have asked questions such as, ďwhich seedling from a Polyembryonic mango seed is the clone?Ē The literature out there sometimes can have conflicting conclusions or it may be variety specific but if we gather more data, we may be able to come up with a reasonably acceptable answer in the near future.

I know that there are already many members out there that have already planted mangos from seed and it would be great if you can add that data to this thread.

I believe Chris Wenzel from Truly Tropical has a video or two regarding seedling grown mango trees. Videos are a great option if you are so inclined.

Anyways, i hope anyone that has a seed grown mango tree can contribute to this thread. Thanks in advance!

Simon
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 02:34:56 PM by simon_grow »

skhan

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2020, 07:22:33 PM »
Simon, I don't know much beyond the genetics covered in the basic Bio so I'll leave that part up to you.

I planted a bunch of Neelam seeds (like 30) from my tree and there are a few seedlings with an Indochinese smell. (They could have either got it from Cac or Manilita)
I have Honey Kiss grafted on the same tree so I'm hoping i to detect a Gary type sap smell in one of these too.

I'm planning on planting these out (as much as I can fit.
I'm looking for other late-season contenders

Also, have to Malika seedling (not from my yard) one smell like Neelam the other has more of the typical citrus smell.

I have a few other ones I'm planning on keeping track of (cotton candy, venus etc).

I'll keep you posted.
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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2020, 08:37:58 PM »
Hello everyone, Iím starting this thread to track seed grown mango trees to fruition. I would like to gather information on the following:

1) Is it Polyembryonic or Monoembryonic?
2) How long did it take the seedling to fruit(include location)?
3) Growth habits of the tree, especially compared to maternal parent tree
4) Track production of the tree as it grows
5) If itís a Polyembryonic seedling:
5a) How many sprouts did you get from the seed?
5b) Which seedling(s) did you grow out? The largest, medium, smallest or all?
5c) Which of the seedlings came out true to variety? The largest, medium, smallest or all?
5d) If you only got a single sprout from a Polyembryonic seed variety, did it turn out to be a clone or the zygotic seedling?

It would be great to have pictures of the trees in different stages of growth. For Polyembryonic varieties, it would be especially important to track quality of fruit from the zygotic seedlings or off type seedlings from a Polyembryonic seed.

Iím especially interested in Polyembryonic off types because of the potential for superior fruit due to plants produced through selfing which sets the traits of that particular variety. A selfed mango flower is a flower of Sweet Tart for example, that was pollinated by itself(Sweet Tart). The resulting seedling is 100% Sweet Tart genetics but it is not a clone because there is a re arrangement of the chromosomes.

Actually, the zygotic seedling that was outcrossed with a different variety is just as interesting because of the increased genetic material incorporated by the pollinating parent. The increased genetic pool allows for a significantly higher chance that the resulting seedling will produce fruit that is much different than the maternal parent.

A Zygotic Sweet Tart seedling that was not selfed, for example, may produce fruit that tastes very different than the fruit produced from the maternal parent or a selfed seedling. This however, is highly unlikely because Sweet Tart is a variety that has certain dominant traits that have been concentrated or binned over the years.

Sweet Tart is a seedling of Zill Indochinese(ZIC) and both ZIC and Sweet Tart have that Indochinese flavor. Venus and Kathy(K3) are also descended from ZIC and they all have a similar Indochinese flavor according to my palate. Hey m not saying that they all taste the same but I can definitely detect that Indochinese flavor in all three.

We know that the Indochinese flavor is a heritable trait of ZIC seedlings but but we donít know if itís a simple dominant recessive trait or if itís a lot more complicated and involves multiple alleles.

I also want to mention that we donít have all the data. For example, how many ZIC seedlings did the Zillís plant out. If they planted out 100 ZIC seedlings and purposefully selected the seedlings that had the Indochinese flavor, then my statements above may be completely off base.

What if Sweet Tart, Venus and Kathy were the only seedlings out of the 100 that had the Indochinese flavor?

Iím pretty much just thinking (typing) out loud now but I hope that you can see that Iím just trying to gather as much data as possible. The more data we can collect, the more accurate of a picture we can create and the better we will begin to understand and perhaps predict which seedlings may give better fruit.

Many members have asked questions such as, ďwhich seedling from a Polyembryonic mango seed is the clone?Ē The literature out there sometimes can have conflicting conclusions or it may be variety specific but if we gather more data, we may be able to come up with a reasonably acceptable answer in the near future.

I know that there are already many members out there that have already planted mangos from seed and it would be great if you can add that data to this thread.

I believe Chris Wenzel from Truly Tropical has a video or two regarding seedling grown mango trees. Videos are a great option if you are so inclined.

Anyways, i hope anyone that has a seed grown mango tree can contribute to this thread. Thanks in advance!

Simon
Simon, I don't know much beyond the genetics covered in the basic Bio so I'll leave that part up to you.

I planted a bunch of Neelam seeds (like 30) from my tree and there are a few seedlings with an Indochinese smell. (They could have either got it from Cac or Manilita)
I have Honey Kiss grafted on the same tree so I'm hoping i to detect a Gary type sap smell in one of these too.

I'm planning on planting these out (as much as I can fit.
I'm looking for other late-season contenders

Also, have to Malika seedling (not from my yard) one smell like Neelam the other has more of the typical citrus smell.

I have a few other ones I'm planning on keeping track of (cotton candy, venus etc).

I'll keep you posted.

that's interesting :) Will update later  :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 10:56:20 PM by mangomadness »
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simon_grow

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2020, 09:55:18 PM »
Hey Sayyid, thatís awesome! Hopefully you will find some nice late season seedlings with good Indian flavors.

Hereís my first fruit from a Sweet Tart seedling that was planted in 2016. I planted one Sweet Tart seed directly into the ground, if I remember correctly, and two sprouts came up. I just let them grow and they both flowered in their third year, last year. This year, they flowered again and I removed all the blooms but one was hiding under some leaves and by the time I saw it, it was about half formed so I decided to leave it.

This fruit is from seedling number two of two. When I number my Polyembryonic seedlings, number one is the largest seedling and number two is the second largest seedling and so on. This naming convention will help me find out wether the largest or smaller seedlings are the potential clones if we can collect enough data.

This tree was planted next to a huge Pomegranate tree and has been shaded for most of the 4 years itís been alive until I pruned the neighboring trees earlier this year. Iím not expecting much from this fruit because it still gets a lot of shade and this seedling is only about two feet tall.  This seedling #2 has a trunk diameter of approximately 3/4 inch. The fruit weighs just over 11 oz and it fell into my hands as I was checking the bottom of the fruit for insect damage. The nose of the fruit was touching the ground due to the short stature of the tree.











Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2020, 11:34:06 PM »
There are many thousands of KP seedlings of various selections planted in my home town on public land and in yards. It seems one in ten yards or so has a KP seedling. They get big and fruit is as good as from grafted trees as they are polys. They usually take 5 years to fruit.

simon_grow

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 12:12:04 AM »
Here is the whole tree, Sweet Tart Seedling #1 is on the right and it is twice as tall (4feet) as Sweet Tart Seedling #2. Sweet Tart Seedling #1 has a trunk diameter of about 1 1/4 inches. In hindsight, I should have separated the two seedlings when they were smaller so that each seedling would have space to grow.

The way I planted them, the two trunks are growing away from each other causing the main trunks to grow at an angle. Sweet Tart Seedling #2 is leaning over so far that it has very poor form.

An alternative space saving idea is to graft the weaker seedling onto a branch of the stronger seedling. This way, you get to test out both seedlings on just one tree.





You can see how close the trunks are in this picture


Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 12:38:39 AM »
:)
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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 06:31:03 AM »
3 Chaunsa Pakistani seedlings(seed from retail fruit)

1) Is it Polyembryonic or Monoembryonic? Monoembreyonic
2) How long did it take the seedling to fruit(include location)? ___(fill in in when fruits)
3) Growth habits of the tree, especially compared to maternal parent tree? Seems healthy so far
4) Track production of the tree as it grows:

All around 5 weeks old.

Chaunsa 1:


chaunsa 2:


 Chaunsa 3:


1 Egyption(variety unkown though tastes like ''Fazli'')  mango seedling (seed from retail fruit)

1) Is it Polyembryonic or Monoembryonic? Monoembreyonic
2) How long did it take the seedling to fruit(include location)? ___(fill in when fruits)
3) Growth habits of the tree, especially compared to maternal parent tree? so far so good..
4) Track production of the tree as it grows:

1 week old


« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 06:46:34 AM by mangomadness »
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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 06:36:54 AM »
Simon, are you looking for responses only regarding seedlings that have already fruited?

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 06:40:19 AM »
Simon, are you looking for responses only regarding seedlings that have already fruited?

I think track seed grown mango trees to fruition..(I think)
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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 09:39:43 AM »
Wonderful idea for a thread. Very curious to learn how different seedling mango trees fare and fruit.

I have a few seedlings going, but not sure what their fate shall be. All started this summer.

Found 2 Glenn (mono) volunteers. Thinking about keeping at least one, but was considering grafting onto it.

I am more curious about Ceci Love and Z20 (both mono) seedlings growing in pots. Intend to take cuttings and add them to a larger Glenn tree, but will keep the trees in pots for now.

Also, have Manalita, OS, and LZ seedlings in pots (all poly), along with a random/unkown sprout or 2.

Following and will update on my progress.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 11:22:01 AM by roblack »

simon_grow

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 03:36:51 PM »
Simon, are you looking for responses only regarding seedlings that have already fruited?

No, you can use this thread to start tracking from the beginning even before they fruit.

Mike, Leo Manuel has a grafted Kensington Pride and also a seedling of KP and I canít tell them apart. They are good fruit.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 02:18:19 AM »
Great thread, simon_grow!

I just planted my Sweet Tart and CAC seedlings in the ground. I put the seeds in pots almost 3 months ago.
Sweet Tart seed produced 3 seedlings. CAC seed produced 6+ seedlings.
In both cases, I planted 2 strongest seedlings in the same hole.

Sweet Tart seedlings before planting:


Sweet Tart seedlings after planting:


Future

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 04:30:49 PM »
Great idea.  As mine fruit, Iíll fill in the blanks...

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 05:21:00 PM »
I have a variety of seedlings planted earlier this spring and over the past 3 years.  As already discussed in this forum, I gave up planting grafted trees from FL and had much better success with seedlings and now starting to top work the 3 year olds.  Some of my one year old seedlings include Ewais, Malda, PPK, ST Maui, Ice Cream, 13-1, Sugarloaf, Peach, Kent, Ataulfo, and Ott.  Other 3-5 year old planted seedlings include Paheri, Okrung, Dasheri, Nam Tam Teem, Dot, KP, Cambodiana, and Carrie.
Other than a seedling Manila that produced terrible fruit, I had a Saigon and Not Ott fruit for me this year. Each are about 4-5 years old. The Saigon had medium fiber and unspectacular taste.  I was expecting more from this variety, however, it was the first year and a seedling.  I only allowed one mango to ripen on my Not Ott seedling and it was spectacular!  Orange tang flavor and completely fiberless. Seed was poly. Here is the growth over the past three years.

2018



2019



2020



fliptop

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2020, 05:15:05 PM »
Here are my Coconut Cream seedlings. Two are from a single seed from 2018 (Tropical Acres Farm).

Their baby pic:


They both went in the ground in February 2019. The larger-leafed one on the left ended up having some dieback in the ground and looked sickly, so I yanked it and threw it in a pot. It thrived and has since been returned to the earth. Here's a blurry pic of where the dieback was:


Here it is now. It's about two feet tall:


The originally smaller seedling has taken off. I pruned it at around three feet. It's since kicked out all that new growth and is around five feet tall. Its leaves are thinner than the other seedling, and thinner than Coconut Cream trees I've seen.


I do have another Coconut Cream 2019 seedling from a fruit from a mango tasting in Punta Gorda. Only one seedling emerged and it's grown well in spite of being moved around a couple times and having some sooty mold on it now:


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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2020, 05:25:04 PM »
My Pim Seng Mun seedlings from 2017.

I got four sprouts from a single seed. One was quite vigorous and I put it in the ground when I lived in Spring Hill and it died in the winter. I didn't mind so much, as it was very vigorous and its crushed leaves did not have the fruit smell of the parent seed. The three remaining seedlings' crushed leaves smelled like the parent fruit. I kept two and they were planted in Punta Gorda in 2019. The initially larger one stalled in growth for a while, but just put out new growth. It's got big leaves.


The other:


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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2020, 05:38:41 PM »
Other seedlings include 3 Baptiste (from 2 different seeds), 3 Pickering, 2 Lemon Meringue (2 different seeds), 1 Madame Francis (from a Whole Foods fruit, so it's from Haiti), and 1 Sweet Tart.

The 2018 Lemon Meringue seed provided two sprouts, one which withered away and died. The other seedling is doing well. I've not trimmed the tree; it's branched on its own:


I've planted a couple Sweet Tart seeds, which provided multiple sprouts. Oddly enough, most withered away and died. This is the only one that's thrived:


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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2020, 06:10:50 PM »
skhan, are you using any other characteristic besides smell in your Neelam seedling selections (namely, growth habit)?

simon_grow

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2020, 01:48:53 AM »
Here is a Pina Colada seedling grafted onto a mature rootstock. If youíve never had Pina Colada, youíre missing out. Itís right up there with Sweet Tart in terms of explosive flavor and perfect balance of sweet and tart. Pina Colada is absolutely incredible.

The issue with Pina Colada is that it is a slow grower in SoCal. Several years ago, I planted out about 30-50 Pina Colada seeds and grew them out. Many of them died within the first year, they seem susceptible to some fungal disease in my are a that affects them more than other seedlings. After allowing Mother Nature to weed out the weaker seedlings, I was left with about 5 plants that survived outside unprotected. These seedlings were more vigorous than the ones that died out so vigor may have a positive correlation with survivability at least in my climate.

Several of these trees are planted out at Brads orchard and I kept one in a pot at my house. About three months ago, I took a a scion from my Pina Colada seedling and grafted it onto an established rootstock. This Pina Colada seedling was planted from seed on 07/27/18 and I grafted the scion onto my established rootstock on 07/04/20. After grafting, this scion has flushed 2-3 times already.

The flushes have maintained the short internode distance between leaves that the real Pina Colada seems to have. The grafted Pina Colada Seedling is growing so much faster when grafted onto a strong established rootstock.




For those growers that are short on space, multigrafting multiple seedlings onto a larger rootstock can save you space and probably give you much faster growth than seedlings growing on their own rootstock. Multigraft trees can become difficult to track however so think before you do this and make sure you tag your grafts.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2020, 11:25:40 AM »
Interesting thread Simon.

I'd like to expand on one of the genetic issues.

Iím especially interested in Polyembryonic off types because of the potential for superior fruit due to plants produced through selfing which sets the traits of that particular variety. A selfed mango flower is a flower of Sweet Tart for example, that was pollinated by itself(Sweet Tart). The resulting seedling is 100% Sweet Tart genetics but it is not a clone because there is a re arrangement of the chromosomes.

To be clear, its not only re-arrangement of chromosomes, where the arms of the chromosome arms inherited from the grandparents cross over and you get patchwork chromosomes mixing up grandmas and grandpas genes on a single arm. There's also the fact that the child plants can have either arm paired with itself or paired with its opposite. Which gives rise to the phenomenon that with regard to any particular gene the child can inherit one grandma copy plus one grandpa copy, or both grandmas copies, or both grandpas. So if the, just to have fun, 'fiberless' gene A is dominant and comes from grandma, and A' from grandpa but has a bit of fiber then the self cross child can be AA, or AA' or A'A'. The second of these is genetically equivalent to the parent plant, but the first and last effectively loses one of the grandparent's genes. By observation you would keep either AA or AA' variants as both being fiberless, but reject A'A' for having fiber. But you wouldn't know if you had AA or AA'. At some generation it would go to AA by chance (1/3 of the selectants are AA) and become fixed because A' would no longer be in the genetics anywhere. After that A would always pair with A.

To put it another way, 100% of the child's genetics comes from the self-crossed parent, but 100% of the parent's genetics is NOT preserved in the child. There's always gene variants being lost (going homozygous to one of the grandparent's versions). That's what 'sets' the traits. Eventually it happens to all the genes (after 7 generations of selecting for desired characteristics is the rule of thumb). At that point instead of having AA'/BB'/CC'/DD' etc., you have AA/BB/CC/DD with largely identical offspring and the only diversity is created from rarer genetic events.

Anyway, its a fascinating aspect of plant breeding that isn't always clear. 


Shane

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2020, 12:53:14 PM »
Guava seed has 5 sprouts coming out


Seed from this guava mango


At first, thought  seed was mono










« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 01:01:25 PM by fruit4me »

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 12:58:12 PM »
really like the colour on that, reminds me of a Alphonso mango.
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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 06:29:02 PM »
I will be following this. Cool idea for a thread. Seems like a lot of people have had success getting fruit a lot sooner than many say. I tend to hear 5-10 years as the standard comment but seems to be a lot faster. I planted a bunch of various seedlings in pots. I will be using them to see if I can learn to graft though. I likely wonít grow them out. I also would be willing to give some away to anyone that wanted to grow them out. 

simon_grow

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2020, 02:32:36 PM »
Interesting thread Simon.

I'd like to expand on one of the genetic issues.

Iím especially interested in Polyembryonic off types because of the potential for superior fruit due to plants produced through selfing which sets the traits of that particular variety. A selfed mango flower is a flower of Sweet Tart for example, that was pollinated by itself(Sweet Tart). The resulting seedling is 100% Sweet Tart genetics but it is not a clone because there is a re arrangement of the chromosomes.

To be clear, its not only re-arrangement of chromosomes, where the arms of the chromosome arms inherited from the grandparents cross over and you get patchwork chromosomes mixing up grandmas and grandpas genes on a single arm. There's also the fact that the child plants can have either arm paired with itself or paired with its opposite. Which gives rise to the phenomenon that with regard to any particular gene the child can inherit one grandma copy plus one grandpa copy, or both grandmas copies, or both grandpas. So if the, just to have fun, 'fiberless' gene A is dominant and comes from grandma, and A' from grandpa but has a bit of fiber then the self cross child can be AA, or AA' or A'A'. The second of these is genetically equivalent to the parent plant, but the first and last effectively loses one of the grandparent's genes. By observation you would keep either AA or AA' variants as both being fiberless, but reject A'A' for having fiber. But you wouldn't know if you had AA or AA'. At some generation it would go to AA by chance (1/3 of the selectants are AA) and become fixed because A' would no longer be in the genetics anywhere. After that A would always pair with A.

To put it another way, 100% of the child's genetics comes from the self-crossed parent, but 100% of the parent's genetics is NOT preserved in the child. There's always gene variants being lost (going homozygous to one of the grandparent's versions). That's what 'sets' the traits. Eventually it happens to all the genes (after 7 generations of selecting for desired characteristics is the rule of thumb). At that point instead of having AA'/BB'/CC'/DD' etc., you have AA/BB/CC/DD with largely identical offspring and the only diversity is created from rarer genetic events.

Anyway, its a fascinating aspect of plant breeding that isn't always clear.

Hey Shane, thanks for diving in deeper in regards to mango genetics. I havenít paid much attention to the mango genome but but your explanation makes sense. When a mango is selfed, it can have any rearrangement of the genes that is already encoded in the parents genetics which will include the parents parent which will be different for both the paternal and maternal parent.

I agree that some traits can be multi allelic traits which requires multiple copies of specific genes which is much more complicated than a simple dominant recessive trait.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2020, 02:40:44 PM »
Guava seed has 5 sprouts coming out


Seed from this guava mango


At first, thought  seed was mono












Hey Max, did the fruit taste like Guava? This thread has people saying that itís monoembryonic and polyembryonic. Perhaps this is one of those varieties that is Polyembryonic but sometimes throws mono seeds? http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15929.msg368142#msg368142

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2020, 02:41:26 PM »
...so, people growing polyembryonic seeds of named mangoes DO NOT actually have the exact same fruit tree as the named cultivars.

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2020, 05:24:49 PM »
@Simon
I did not taste any guava flavor. To me, the flavor reminds me of the kesar mango. Love this tree for the Indian flavor profile and the vigorous growth it has. Flowers and sets fruit very well too. If your into kesars and Alponsos, I think this is a very good alternative for growing in SoCal.

Max

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2020, 05:36:05 PM »
Guava seed has 5 sprouts coming out


Seed from this guava mango


At first, thought  seed was mono











It is mono. With paradoxical multiple sprouts.  It happens

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2020, 07:38:13 PM »
...so, people growing polyembryonic seeds of named mangoes DO NOT actually have the exact same fruit tree as the named cultivars.

That's what I was thinking after reading shaneatwell's post, roblack. I guess I'm waiting to see how close the polyembryonic seedlings' fruits are to the parent or if they're different enough to get a new name.

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2020, 08:44:58 PM »
This is my mono embryonic mango seedling  which is 9 weeks old. It came from a Keitt mango and I have yet to see any fruit.
The second one is also a keitt mango which was poly embryonic but ironically, the leaves look quite different. Than a typical mango tree let alone a keitt. To be honest, I think the mono embryonic one is going to produce more true to type.



Harry

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2020, 11:45:06 PM »
...so, people growing polyembryonic seeds of named mangoes DO NOT actually have the exact same fruit tree as the named cultivars.

Hey Roblack, sort of. When you plant a seed from a Polyembryonic mango, you can get a clone or the zygotic seedling. The Zygotic seedling will be genetically different so it will have a different genotype and the phenotype will likely be different as well.

The clone should have identical or near identical genetics so it should have the same genotype and phenotype although there may also be other factors such as genetic drift.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2020, 11:48:43 PM »
@Simon
I did not taste any guava flavor. To me, the flavor reminds me of the kesar mango. Love this tree for the Indian flavor profile and the vigorous growth it has. Flowers and sets fruit very well too. If your into kesars and Alponsos, I think this is a very good alternative for growing in SoCal.

Max

Thanks Max, thatís good to know. Iíll add this to my list. Thereís an Indian mango called Rajapuri that actually has a strong guava flavor. Itís a large mango, sweet and also has tropical fruit punch flavors.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2020, 12:15:12 AM »
I forgot to mention that when my Sweet tart Seedling #2 fruit came off in my hand, it leaked some clear sap that had a very strong Indochinese resin scent. The fruit is turning a bit more yellow and it will probably be ripe tomorrow or the day after. Iíll report back once I cut it open.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2020, 01:54:13 AM »
I fruited a seedling sweet tart for the first time off my seedling tree and off my aunt's manila tree that I grafted onto. The seedling tree  itself  produced around  15 decent size fruits. It tasted very similar to the original. Fruit was just smaller. The seed was from the mango tasting at Gary's house in Palm Springs from way back when. It was in a pot until two years ago.

Original ST on left, seedling on the right
 


Seedling sweet tart grafted onto manila holding  7 fruits on the small graft. You can still see the graft union on the bottom.



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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2020, 07:03:37 AM »
I fruited a seedling sweet tart for the first time off my seedling tree and off my aunt's manila tree that I grafted onto. The seedling tree  itself  produced around  15 decent size fruits. It tasted very similar to the original. Fruit was just smaller. The seed was from the mango tasting at Gary's house in Palm Springs from way back when. It was in a pot until two years ago.

Original ST on left, seedling on the right
 


Seedling sweet tart grafted onto manila holding  7 fruits on the small graft. You can still see the graft union on the bottom.



Do you by chance have a picture of the entire seedling tree? Also how old is the seedling and was this itís first year fruiting? Thanks!

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2020, 11:00:23 AM »
Chris1
I don't  remember  exactly how old the tree is. Guessing 5 or 6 years old. The tree flowered  last year but wasn't able to hold  any  fruits. This is the first  year  holding  fruits.
Here's  the seedling tree

Picture of the leafs pruned back after harvest


New leaf


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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2020, 02:04:43 PM »
...so, people growing polyembryonic seeds of named mangoes DO NOT actually have the exact same fruit tree as the named cultivars.

Hey Roblack, sort of. When you plant a seed from a Polyembryonic mango, you can get a clone or the zygotic seedling. The Zygotic seedling will be genetically different so it will have a different genotype and the phenotype will likely be different as well.

The clone should have identical or near identical genetics so it should have the same genotype and phenotype although there may also be other factors such as genetic drift.

Simon

I'm starting to get it, thanks Simon! Slight variations of preferred cultivars are of interest to me.

As for another's post re: guava mango; of the ones I've tasted, most had a distinct guava taste to them. Not a typical Indian mango. Different from Kesar or Alphonso.



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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2020, 11:06:27 PM »
This is my mono embryonic mango seedling  which is 9 weeks old. It came from a Keitt mango and I have yet to see any fruit.
The second one is also a keitt mango which was poly embryonic but ironically, the leaves look quite different. Than a typical mango tree let alone a keitt. To be honest, I think the mono embryonic one is going to produce more true to type.




Keitt should be monoembryonic. Sometimes monoembryonic mango varieties can sprout multiple sprouts from a single seed but they usually have a single point of origin with a single root system.

Polyembryonic mango sprouts will have multiple sprouts but each sprout will have its own set of roots although some of the seedlings may have multiple tops.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2020, 11:15:47 PM »
I fruited a seedling sweet tart for the first time off my seedling tree and off my aunt's manila tree that I grafted onto. The seedling tree  itself  produced around  15 decent size fruits. It tasted very similar to the original. Fruit was just smaller. The seed was from the mango tasting at Gary's house in Palm Springs from way back when. It was in a pot until two years ago.

Original ST on left, seedling on the right
 


Seedling sweet tart grafted onto manila holding  7 fruits on the small graft. You can still see the graft union on the bottom.


Max, this is awesome! Iím especially interested in Sweet Tart and other top tier Polyembryonic seedlings.
Do you happen to remember which seedling you kept? Was it the more vigorous or less vigorous seedling from the seed?

If we consistently find that either the more vigorous or less vigorous seedling is the clone, that will help out a lot of the mango growers out there.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2020, 11:33:00 PM »
@Simon
I did not taste any guava flavor. To me, the flavor reminds me of the kesar mango. Love this tree for the Indian flavor profile and the vigorous growth it has. Flowers and sets fruit very well too. If your into kesars and Alponsos, I think this is a very good alternative for growing in SoCal.

Max


I've never tried that.

Thanks Max, thatís good to know. Iíll add this to my list. Thereís an Indian mango called Rajapuri that actually has a strong guava flavor. Itís a large mango, sweet and also has tropical fruit punch flavors.

Simon
With compliments

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2020, 12:27:34 AM »
Here is an E4 seedling. I planted out several E4 seeds and some came up with multiple sprouts but this seed only had a single sprout come up. It was planted about June-July of last year and is growing very well. It is currently 43 inches tall but has a new vegetative flush pushing right now.





Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2020, 01:51:26 AM »

Max, this is awesome! I’m especially interested in Sweet Tart and other top tier Polyembryonic seedlings.
Do you happen to remember which seedling you kept? Was it the more vigorous or less vigorous seedling from the seed?

If we consistently find that either the more vigorous or less vigorous seedling is the clone, that will help out a lot of the mango growers out there.

Simon
[/quote]

I kept the most vigorous seedling because it was the only one that survived. It had three seedlings total from one seed.  I tried separating the three seedlings. But, the two smaller ones didn’t make it.
Max

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2020, 02:09:20 AM »
Here is an E4 seedling. I planted out several E4 seeds and some came up with multiple sprouts but this seed only had a single sprout come up. It was planted about June-July of last year and is growing very well. It is currently 43 inches tall but has a new vegetative flush pushing right now.





Simon

Wow! If this was my tree and I have the space, I let it get as big as it wants. Love growth on that thing. This is what I love about growing vigorous seedlings. No worrying about getting die backs.

Max

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2020, 06:09:48 PM »
Hereís a thread of a mango seedling from my friend Margot:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=21350.msg261001#msg261001

Many growers out there have already fruited their seed grown mango trees. Leo Manuel has many great tasting and productive varieties that he has named as well.

Simon

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Re: Seedling Mango tree thread
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2020, 10:08:35 PM »
I just cut up my Sweet Tart seedling #2 fruit and it was super good! It tastes exactly like the real Sweet Tart and it had a Brix of 26%. This came from a two foot tall tree with approximately 80 leaves. The flesh was a deep orange color and it leaked a lot of juice when cut. I ate this fruit maybe a day or two too late because it was overly sweet and I wanted additional acidity to balance it out. I did have a couple bites where there was good acidity.

Max grew out his largest Sweet Tart seedling and said his fruit tasted like the real Sweet Tart. This is my smaller seedling and it tastes identical to the real Sweet Tart. Iíll probably allow my larger Sweet Tart Seedling #1 to hold a fruit next year to see if it also makes identical fruit compared to the real Sweet Tart.








This fruit had a very small seed as you can see in the picture

Simon

 

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