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Author Topic: persimmon collectors?  (Read 1940 times)

spaugh

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persimmon collectors?
« on: October 30, 2020, 06:10:15 PM »
Anyone have a big collection of persimmons?  Whats your favorites?  Do you have multigraft trees?  Ive never been that excited for them but this years fuyu are amazing.  I'm thinking of adding more.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 10:57:49 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

luak

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2020, 06:59:17 PM »
Got a few of the better ones, donít know what you are looking for.

Jaboticaba45

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2020, 07:24:42 PM »
I just grow the soft ones (hachiya and tanenashi) Have some fuyus also...Haven't been into collecting more varieties as these suit my needs. There are a lot of wild persimmons on my property that have the potential to be topworked...When I used to live in VA, there was a tree on the property over 40 feet tall. Got struck by lightning and split in half. Even though only half the tree lived, there was still more than enough persimmons for my family even though some were too high to pick, some got stolen by people, and others we gave away. I miss that tree.
-Ryan

luak

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2020, 07:37:57 PM »
Got a few of the better ones, donít know what you are looking for. My all time favorites are, KBS, GIOMBO, ROJO BRILLIANTE. You trade?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 08:21:49 PM by luak »

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2020, 10:59:47 PM »
I was thinking maybe the coffee or chocolate ones or something like that.  We have a Fuyu tree.  I like ones that dont have to be mush to eat. 

Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2020, 11:16:01 PM »
Chocolate and coffeecake may be that way, but Maru is not. Maru is pollination variant, but even when pollinated it has been way too astringent to eat hard. This may change later in the season. I let the astringent maru sit on the counter and dry up a little bit, and the astringency went away, great taste, like a very complex date.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 11:18:41 PM by Oolie »

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2020, 11:25:17 PM »
Coffecake and Izu look like ones I want to find.  Or any other excellent non astringent types.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 11:47:10 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

nexxogen

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2020, 03:01:18 PM »
I don't have a collection yet, but I'm trying to build one. If someone has scionwood for sale and can sell to Europe, I'd be interested. :)

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2020, 11:00:50 AM »
If you have access to the ones that do turn to mush try in a smoothie
I like them mushy , but I do know of one that dries on the tree
 (A American one but May also have some Hybrid I have to ask or read of varieties and remember )


I did have 2 trees , but it has been a bad year (hurt my back, and had to lay on stomach for sometime )
and left the pots outside to die.

Do you want me to ask about the one that dries on tree
 (it would be Cliff England , but want to travel there soon)

Didn't say much, but have to ask

Have you ever tried drying them
Even in a small toaster oven on 200 for 8 hours could try it , and will not heat up the house much in CA.

Francis_Eric

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2020, 11:05:15 AM »
That being said I am trying to save some seed to see what I get

People do  not know, but We get -20F( -28C) a hundred year old tree is by Morton Arboretum (lisle) (or better known Morton salt founders)

got a bunch of seeds from different varieties open pollinated ,
and because of my back injury  that I didn't plant this year.

sc4001992

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2020, 10:19:46 PM »
Brad,
I love non-astringent persimons. I think you will like the ones listed below if you like fuyu.
1. Hayakume - requires cross pollinator to be sweet, one of the best tasting
2. Matsumoto wase - non-astringetn. Early ripening ( 4wks) than regular fuyu and it's much sweeter. You can also let fruit get soft for those that like soft, and it's super sweet (see last photos).

Check out a few photos of the Matsumoto wase. I have Chocolate and Coffeecake, no fruits yet but both are also very sweet.
Giant fuyu is not as sweet as the regular fuyu so don't bother grafting that one.











« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 10:23:56 PM by sc4001992 »

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2020, 02:52:39 PM »
They look great Kaz.  If you can spare a couple sticks in winter let me know. 

What month is best to graft?  Maybe February?
Brad Spaugh

sc4001992

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2020, 05:24:21 PM »
Its better to wait until Jan-Feb, just before leaves start to grow out.
I will let you know.

NateTheGreat

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2020, 03:06:21 PM »
I fell in love with semi-frozen overripe persimmons this year. I highly recommend you try them Brad. Cut in quarters or sixths, remove seeds, freeze for about 2 hours, or let them thaw in the refrigerator for a bit if fully frozen. The fuyus I got just can't compare, even if frozen.

Does anybody know if seedlings of brown-fleshed persimmons tend to have brown flesh as well?

That overripe Matsumoto looks like it would be amazing semi-frozen.



spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2020, 04:14:56 PM »
Sounds interesting for sure.  Maybe use the soft ones to make Popsicles.  I only have a fuyu tree though. 
Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2020, 09:44:50 PM »
Saijo , Giombo and Suruga are the best three by far of about 20 kaki persimmons I have tasted. Hachiya is also among the best.
 I know Jerry Lehman had a huge collection of native persimmons in Indiana and was working on commercializing frozen pulp. I met him several times over the years at fruit growers meetings and tasted some of his breeding selections over 20 years ago. Some had very little astringency and good size. A few of his native persimmons were just as good or better than the kakis and I think he had some hybrids. Was sad to hear he passed away last year. If you do a search with his name and persimmons you will find links to people that he shared his plant material with.
 BTW, the furthest South I have have seen native persimmon trees was near Daytona off the Southbound I95 shoulder and also in the Gainesville area off 301. Those trees might be good to use in Florida for rootstock. Persimmons are my grafting nemesis, only one take out of at least 50 tries when I lived in South Carolina.
  I suspect black sapote might possibly cross with Kaki or American persimmons or be graft compatible to grow Kakis easier in low chill areas of Florida. Good black sapote cultivars have taste similar to a pollen variant kaki but fruit and seeds are much larger. Black sapote are really a persimmon species too. Australia seems to have the best cultivars of those. My Dad has a mature Black sapote tree, maybe I will attempt grafts or save a few seeds for those that would like to try. I think black sapote would do well in San Diego.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 06:02:15 AM by TonyinCC »

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2020, 06:24:43 PM »
Black sapote grows here, they sell them at the nursery and Ive tried a couple of them from differwnt yards but disnt really enjoy it.  It seemed pretty bland compared to other sapote and persimmons. 
Brad Spaugh

V

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2020, 06:12:30 PM »
I was thinking maybe the coffee or chocolate ones or something like that.  We have a Fuyu tree.  I like ones that dont have to be mush to eat.

I never tried Coffee Cake or Chocolate persimmons, but I heard they are very good. According to Dave Wilson website ( https://www.davewilson.com/product-information/product/persimmons ), Chocolate persimmon is astringent until ripe, and Coffee Cake is non-astringent but needs a pollinator (e.g. Chocolate persimmon).

I ordered scionwood for both from Fruitwood nursery ( https://fruitwoodnursery.com/persimmon-scionwood-diospyros-kaki ). They have many other varieties as well.

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2020, 08:37:41 PM »
I was thinking maybe the coffee or chocolate ones or something like that.  We have a Fuyu tree.  I like ones that dont have to be mush to eat.

I never tried Coffee Cake or Chocolate persimmons, but I heard they are very good. According to Dave Wilson website ( https://www.davewilson.com/product-information/product/persimmons ), Chocolate persimmon is astringent until ripe, and Coffee Cake is non-astringent but needs a pollinator (e.g. Chocolate persimmon).

I ordered scionwood for both from Fruitwood nursery ( https://fruitwoodnursery.com/persimmon-scionwood-diospyros-kaki ). They have many other varieties as well.

Yeah I think Ill get those 2 trees fromdave wilson this year.  They sell bare root trees at the store here in january. 
Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2020, 12:23:47 AM »
Saijo , Giombo and Suruga are the best three by far of about 20 kaki persimmons I have tasted. Hachiya is also among the best.
 I know Jerry Lehman had a huge collection of native persimmons in Indiana and was working on commercializing frozen pulp. I met him several times over the years at fruit growers meetings and tasted some of his breeding selections over 20 years ago. Some had very little astringency and good size. A few of his native persimmons were just as good or better than the kakis and I think he had some hybrids. Was sad to hear he passed away last year. If you do a search with his name and persimmons you will find links to people that he shared his plant material with.
 BTW, the furthest South I have have seen native persimmon trees was near Daytona off the Southbound I95 shoulder and also in the Gainesville area off 301. Those trees might be good to use in Florida for rootstock. Persimmons are my grafting nemesis, only one take out of at least 50 tries when I lived in South Carolina.
  I suspect black sapote might possibly cross with Kaki or American persimmons or be graft compatible to grow Kakis easier in low chill areas of Florida. Good black sapote cultivars have taste similar to a pollen variant kaki but fruit and seeds are much larger. Black sapote are really a persimmon species too. Australia seems to have the best cultivars of those. My Dad has a mature Black sapote tree, maybe I will attempt grafts or save a few seeds for those that would like to try. I think black sapote would do well in San Diego.

I did about 20 bud grafts here in SC and only got 2 to take.

I am always on the lookout for Persimmon Cuttings! So far I got Prok and Tam Kam to take.
I will be trying again this year. There are about 10 American Persimmon trees in my yard that came with the house and some are about 30 feet tall and have fruit.

roblack

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2020, 11:00:43 AM »
Picked up a Suruga tree a few weeks ago. Might be a long shot to get it to flower and produce decent fruit all the way down here, gonna give it a try.

A lone Fuyu made me a believer. 

TonyinCC

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2020, 12:38:45 PM »
Seems like the Asian kaki persimmons are very slow growing in South Florida. Have seen a few growing and fruiting but they seems stunted and unhappy as compared to a few hundred miles North.

Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2020, 05:29:49 PM »
Hello everyone , could someone recommend me a persimmon variety for zone 7 ; hardiness, taste , self fertility etc . Thanks !!!

TonyinCC

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2020, 07:37:33 PM »
Saijo translates to "The very best one" The original tree is centuries old. Egg shaped astringent variety that is also good for drying. Hardy and self fertile.

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2020, 10:38:09 AM »
I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to persimmons, but Fuyu tastes good and is the best variety of the maybe 4 varieties which I've tasted.
Every single Hachiya that I've ever tasted I could almost not eat, they were too astringent. I've purchased Hachiya an endless number of times from different markets, each time hoping this time might different, but it never is.
And this is coming from someone who is a fan of quince fruit and sometimes likes eating raw plantain bananas, so it's definitely not like I am the type of individual who would be unable to like something astringent.

Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2020, 10:59:24 AM »
I will be definitely baying a none astringent one since I like to eat persimmons when not in mush stage, havent stopped my eyes on a variety yet, i'm also very interested in the ones with chocolate tones in the flavor ....

Nyuu

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2020, 12:07:59 PM »
I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to persimmons, but Fuyu tastes good and is the best variety of the maybe 4 varieties which I've tasted.
Every single Hachiya that I've ever tasted I could almost not eat, they were too astringent. I've purchased Hachiya an endless number of times from different markets, each time hoping this time might different, but it never is.
And this is coming from someone who is a fan of quince fruit and sometimes likes eating raw plantain bananas, so it's definitely not like I am the type of individual who would be unable to like something astringent.
Hachiya is very tasty variety I prefer over the fuyu  persimmon . It sounds like you never let him ripen enough they need to become super soft and a little translucent skin . Saijo is another good one. I have a couple other varieties but I haven't been able to try them yet like lchi-kikei-jirro , suruga and velvet Apple technically is a persimmon

Nyuu

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2020, 12:10:56 PM »
The Velvet Apple doesn't taste like any traditional persimmons though that one in itself I did try and it's very unique

slopat

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2020, 02:24:37 PM »
I am down to the last dozen fuyu picked back in mid November. These were the lighter orange that I put in refrigeration right away.  So much better when crunchy.  After starting in October,  3 or 4 a day, I'm done for the season.  Hachiya's are still being pulped and frozen as they ripen. Persimmon chocolate chip cookies for the holidays and throughout the year :)  the hand rubbed/dried hachiyas are good too. Btw: #Liziqi released a YouTube video about persimmons this past week!

Have to say that I am not a fan of Persimmon smoothies the way I've been making them. Maybe its time to try Saijo or something other than fuyu or hachiya.


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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2020, 05:25:53 PM »
I will be definitely baying a none astringent one since I like to eat persimmons when not in mush stage, havent stopped my eyes on a variety yet, i'm also very interested in the ones with chocolate tones in the flavor ....

With astringent ones, you can put them in a plastic container together with a shot glass half full of vodka and close the lid. Every 2 to 3 days check if the alcohol level in the glass has subsided (by smelling it), and replace it with a new swig of vodka. After about 8 to 10 days, the astringency will be gone and you'll be able to eat the astringent persimmons like they were non-astringent.

Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2020, 05:38:05 PM »
I will be definitely baying a none astringent one since I like to eat persimmons when not in mush stage, havent stopped my eyes on a variety yet, i'm also very interested in the ones with chocolate tones in the flavor ....

With astringent ones, you can put them in a plastic container together with a shot glass half full of vodka and close the lid. Every 2 to 3 days check if the alcohol level in the glass has subsided (by smelling it), and replace it with a new swig of vodka. After about 8 to 10 days, the astringency will be gone and you'll be able to eat the astringent persimmons like they were non-astringent.
[/quote.
Lol thanks for the idea, I wonder how this method came up 😀

RollingInTheWeeds

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2020, 05:39:48 PM »
Every single Hachiya that I've ever tasted I could almost not eat, they were too astringent. I've purchased Hachiya an endless number of times from different markets, each time hoping this time might different, but it never is.

Here's my experience with Hachiyas: They are inedible until they are so ripe they look translucent.  At that stage, the skin is paper thin and peels off by hand easily, leaving the gelatinous flesh behind.  In order for a Hachiya to ripen to that degree, I begin with fruit that have absolutely no damage to them (holes, bruises, etc).  I let them sit on the counter for however long it takes for them to turn translucent and the color to deepen to a very deep orange.  If a fruit is damaged, the damaged area will begin molding before the rest of the fruit ripens.

Eating a ripe Hachiya is kind of like eating jello; I can slurp it.  That texture puts some people off.  A matter of personal taste.  A truly ripe Hachiya is usually intensely sweet -- (also a matter of personal taste -- some would say it's too sweet).

There are also ways of forcing persimmons to ripen.  I'm aware of 4 different methods, and using these methods you might not end up with gelatinous fruit:
  • I've been told that you can store the fruit in a plastic bag full of CO2 for a day or so and that will ripen it.
  • Another method is exposure to ethanol (drinking alcohol).  You can put a couple of tablespoons of cheap vodka in a small dish within a plastic bag.  Place the fruit in the same bag (*not* in direct contact with the liquid), seal it up and let it sit.  I'm not sure how long that method takes; I tried it once, but didn't really like the results.  It was so long ago I can't remember what I didn't like about it.
  • Freezing.  Pop them in the freezer for a few days.  Freezing apparently breaks tannins down.
  • And then there's Hoshigaki (dried).  Search the Internet for "Hoshigaki" and you'll find instructions on how.  I've done this twice and liked the results after drying for about 2 weeks.  I didn't like them as much when they were fully dried (which happens at about 3 weeks).

I plan to try the CO2 method next year, when I can get some Hachiyas again.
Ha ha! @nexxogen and @Plantinyum were typing while I was.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 05:46:55 PM by RollingInTheWeeds »

slopat

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2020, 09:01:44 PM »
One for the chickens and one ready to eat.

The vodka idea sounds like a good experiment for next year. Putting a the hachiya, in trays, single layer stem down, in the cooler garage has worked out well for me ~ just be sure no ants, flies,  or rodents, etc, get near them.



Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2020, 03:58:22 AM »
I just ordered one tsuru noko / chocolate persimmon , the reviels are for a big, spicy sweet fruit, non astringent ,the taste is said to be reminiscent of chocolate and cinnamon desert .
 hardy for 6-7 zone
Anyone has experience with this variety ?

Nyuu

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2020, 07:36:44 PM »
Coffee Cake , chocolate persimmon supposed to have a more complex flavor . It's two I want to add to my collection . I like to try find Texas Persimmon /Diospyros texana that is another one is supposed to have a great different flavor profile on the wishlist . And just in case of someone once a very sweet  non-astringent variety suruga persimmon supposed to be the one .

nexxogen

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2020, 01:36:00 AM »
@RollingInTheWeeds

The "votka" method is what I recently tested. Info that I found online said to keep persimmons together with alcohol for 72 hours. Unfortunately, this didn't remove the astringency completely for me. It went down noticeably, but it was still there. So I let them sit more until all of the astringency went away, which took about 8 days I think. But I did replace the alcohol 2 times in the process because I noticed that it didn't smell like alcohol after a while so I assumed it had evaporated.

The persimmons will stay firm after this method, so this is by no means a way to quickly ripen them, just to remove the tannins.

I've had really bad experience with freezing. It will turn the persimmons wrinkly and mushy without ripening them properly and some astringency will still be there. I've heard in a youtube video recently that you're supposed to freeze them twice but I don't feel like trying that out. I actually like the jelly-like texture of ripe persimmons, but these frozen ones were somehow gritty and not much like properly ripened ones.

So for me, the vodka method is the method currently. You can still let the persimmons ripen completely even after you treat them with this method, but it will just give you the option to eat them hard as well, if you feel like it.

Bush2Beach

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2020, 01:32:00 PM »
I have eaten a fair amount of Chocolate and Coffee Cake Persimmons the last 2 years.
They are knock your socks of amazing.
Coffee cake tastes a bit like a good non gritty Sapodilla , maybe a hair less sweet.
Chocolate is melts in your mouth delicious perfection! What I imagined Black Sapote to taste like until I actually tried some.
I may be able to hook up some scion pretty soon.

Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2020, 03:09:08 PM »
I have eaten a fair amount of Chocolate and Coffee Cake Persimmons the last 2 years.
They are knock your socks of amazing.
Coffee cake tastes a bit like a good non gritty Sapodilla , maybe a hair less sweet.
Chocolate is melts in your mouth delicious perfection! What I imagined Black Sapote to taste like until I actually tried some.
I may be able to hook up some scion pretty soon.
that sounds amazing !!!  The lone chocolate plant I bought was bare root(all of the feeder roots were dead) hope it survives and sprouts in spring. Either way i'm years away from tasting a homegrown chocolate one....

Bush2Beach

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2020, 04:32:40 PM »
Graft onto mature persimmon then right?

Plantinyum

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2020, 01:18:30 AM »
Graft onto mature persimmon then right?
I will need to let the plant grow some branches first, it a straight stick right now ,which i'm sure will die off to just above the graft. I may doo this too if I see enough living tissue in the spring ...the past ones that I planted bare root years ago did just that , died off to just above the graft the very first spring , and they had alot more healthy roots than this one. I hate buying bare root plants

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2020, 04:25:58 PM »
I picked up a bare root chocolate and coffee cake today.  55$ each !  Expensive.  But I do get a 20% discount there and they told me they cost more than peches for instance that were 35$ because they are harder to grow and graft.  These are dave wilson trees from walter andersens nursery.
Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2020, 04:50:09 PM »
I picked up a bare root chocolate and coffee cake today.  55$ each !  Expensive.  But I do get a 20% discount there and they told me they cost more than peches for instance that were 35$ because they are harder to grow and graft.  These are dave wilson trees from walter andersens nursery.
thats very pricey , around here typical bare root plants cost around $ 5 , sometimes cheaper. I would any time go with a potted plant rather a bare root ,but when there are non im forced to by them.
I really think the biggest mistake nurseries make is to bare root the plants from the field and store them in sand or whatever . It would be way healthier for the plants if they were digged up from the field at the moment of the order...at least I would do this but I guess its way too much work for them that way ...

spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2020, 05:50:52 PM »
th bare root plants are great quality here .  They are dug up and sent to nurseries in 1-2 days.  Theres a video on youtube of dave wilsons operation.  Their trees are premium quality.

Im going to cut these tree back if anyone wants the scion wood send me a messafe.   
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 06:17:11 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2020, 06:06:06 PM »
th bare root plants are great quality here.  They are dug up and sent to nurseries in 1-2 days.  Theres a video on youtube of dave wilsons operation.  Their trees are premium quality.

Im going to cut these tree back if anyone wants the scion wood send me a messafe.
here I am left with the impression that they just want to make money, they uproot them and god knows how they store them or how fresh are they, bare might be ok here if u go to the nursery and pick a specimen with healthy roots . Now awful plants are not always the case thought , if its not a nursery u are familiar with, its a gamble....

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2020, 06:19:32 PM »
I rather grow bare root trees than trees that have been stuck in a small pot.  The root system is bigger and thry havent been sitting at the nursery being overwatered all year.  What they do here is pot up the bare rrot trees they cant sell then they sit and go bad over time at the nursery.
Brad Spaugh

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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2020, 07:07:33 PM »
Heres their video of how they process the trees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNt5FHw8kaY&feature=youtu.be
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Re: persimmon collectors?
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2021, 12:05:27 AM »
Chocolate really impressed me in previous years. This year the Maru finally hit its stride, producing multiple large crops.

The pollinated ones easily surpassed Chocolate in flavor, but they had to be eaten on the softer side. I dried most of the unpollinated marus, and even though they were slightly astringent (even in dried and peeled form) they had good flavor.

 

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