Author Topic: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?  (Read 669 times)

orangedays

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
    • East Coast, Zone 8a
    • View Profile
Does anyone know if Changsha would provide good cold hardiness and dwarfing to scions?  I made a few cleft grafts of various citrus on an orange X  P. trifoliate  cross and all varieties took except the Changsha which all failed. The Changsha scion died really quickly also, not a lingering death.  At least 50% of all the other varieties successfully grafted and the ones that didn't stayed green for months. Earlier,  I used the Changsha as a root stock and the scions (tangelo, tangerine) grow but much slower than on citrange or citrumelo.  The Changsha root stock grafts are only a few years old so I like to know if they will be good root stocks.   Thanks.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2020, 02:06:42 AM »
I found Changsha to be easy to root from cuttings.


There is also US-852, a rootstock which is a cross between Changsha and trifoliata. That may be yet another possibility.

I do have one Changsha seedling, growing on its own roots, in zone 8a here in the Pacific Northwest, as an experiment, and can tell you how it does this winter.
Right now it is looking okay, we just had a frost last night.

Jim VH, another member here, had a Changsha seedling growing on its own roots which did not survive, though the grafted version of that same seedling did survive, grew into a fairly big tree and is now producing fruit. He's closer to Portland, and also in 8a.

Obviously zone 8a in the Pacific Northwest is a different climate from zone 8a on the East Coast, so these observations might not carry over as well to your situation.
From reports I have read, Changsha can get pretty vigorous growing in zone 8a on the East Coast, growing on its own roots. Of course, I do not really know how much that carries over into rootstock suitability, or conferring hardiness to scions.

This is just one thought, and it could likely be completely wrong, but I wonder if the problem could perhaps be that the Changsha is too vigorous growing of a variety, and that explains the graft failure rate?
Or perhaps, Changsha, being more drought tolerant, has some adaptation where it more quickly forms protective calluses over cut tissue?
Maybe you should try placing a clear bag over the plant being grafted, to hold in the humidity.

From what you are describing, it sounds like Changsha may have poorer graft compatibility.

This site says "Changsha seedlings can also be used for rootstock on which to bud or graft satsumas"
https://www.plantanswers.com/changsha.htm

I really do not know the specific answer to your question, but can at least tell you from what I know, I would guess that Changsha would neither be the best nor the worst variety to use as a rootstock.
I am thinking the real question is will it confer adequate cold hardiness to less hardy varieties which are grafted onto it.

Sorry, I know those are a lot of words and doesn't give you a definitive answer to your question.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 02:44:16 AM by SoCal2warm »

orangedays

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
    • East Coast, Zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2020, 12:59:55 PM »
Thanks for your answer.   I am learning allot from reading this forum. I would like to find some US-85. Do you know if the fruit are tolerable?  I am trying to make a similar cross  Changsha X Citrumelo.  The seed a sprouting now.  I hope to see some trifoliate leaves in the mix soon.  Its interesting that you say Changsha is very drought tolerant. Mine are planted in Charleston county SC and are very tolerant of wet feet. Changsha must be all around tough plants. Mine are around 23 years old and they came from a fruit I was handed by a citrus enthusiast back in the 90s.  There was a deep freeze in 2016 or 2017 when snow fell and the temperatures dropped below freezing for a week.  The snow stayed on the ground even in the sun lit areas for a week.  This kill several other citrus types ( kumquat and sour oranges from seed abut 8-12 feet tall ) but the Changsha and the Citrumelo showed no damage at all. The citrus that didn't die, dropped all the leaves and had significant die back on the upper limbs (Owarie, a seeding for the Juanita tangerine).  The citrange trees had a little limb damage but the top leaves dropped and the rest turned yellowish.   So i think Changsha must very cold hardy.   I think the lows were in the teens.  It was a very unusual occurrence for that area.  The Changsha are planted near the Citrange and sometime I find very odd looking seedlings under the Changsha that have some trifoliate leaves so I think they are crossing.

Now I am moving to zone 8a and hoping to grow citrus here as well.  I am making crosses with the more cold hardy plants. I don't know much about citrus breeding but am finding it fascinating and fun.  This summer I will try to graft the Changsha onto the citrumelo and also to other Changsha seedlings. I would like a Changsha plant  that will bloom quickly to keep in a green house. It blooms later than all the other trees so mabye the green house will get it blooming early enough to cross to the more tender types.  and also I want to use if for root stock if it confers dwarfing and cold resistance.

The link you sent mentioned the cold hardiness of calamondin in reference to the Changsha.  In my location calmondin does not survive with out protection and would have definitely died if it were out side in 2017. I have tried and lost them. But people near the beach can grow them outside in Charleston County.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2020, 02:09:18 PM »
I would like to find some US-852. Do you know if the fruit are tolerable?
I have never personally tasted the fruit, but I do have several seedlings. Some people find it edible, although it still has some trifoliata taste.
I saw one video where a man said he was even able to "enjoy" eating them. Although of course no one would eat them if they were given the choice between US-852 and a regular orange sold at the supermarket.
It is supposed to be pretty good for a direct (first generation) trifoliate hybrid (comparatively).
How "edible" they are will probably depend on the person tasting them.

selkirk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • Houston/Matagorda Texas 9B-b
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2020, 10:24:36 PM »
Couple of years ago, I topped worked a mature Changsha with bark-grafts to a Cara Cara orange. Also I parked some Pummelo grafts on two other large Changsha trees. Grafting rate was pretty high and growth seems on par with my other citrus trees. The Cara Cara fruit seems to be same quality as my Cara Cara on trifoliate. It's only been down to 21deg since the grafting, so can not comment on cold protection of Changsha vs trifoliate or sour orange. The Changsha trees I parked the Pummelo on will be completely topworked once I have enough Pummelo budwood.

hardyvermont

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
    • Anderson SC z 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2020, 01:39:57 PM »
Does anyone know if Changsha would provide good cold hardiness and dwarfing to scions?  I made a few cleft grafts of various citrus on an orange X  P. trifoliate  cross and all varieties took except the Changsha which all failed. The Changsha scion died really quickly also, not a lingering death.  At least 50% of all the other varieties successfully grafted and the ones that didn't stayed green for months. Earlier,  I used the Changsha as a root stock and the scions (tangelo, tangerine) grow but much slower than on citrange or citrumelo.  The Changsha root stock grafts are only a few years old so I like to know if they will be good root stocks.   Thanks.


If you are in Zone 8a, you need to high graft onto Poncirus for maximum cold hardiness protection.  One extra cold snap will kill plants grafted on other material.  Poncirus also keeps leaves and twigs alive, which are burnt on other rootstock.  A high graft will keep a plant alive while a plant growing on own roots dies.  Eyeckr has documented this on the previous board http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/indexc4ff.php

orangedays

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
    • East Coast, Zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2020, 06:45:27 PM »
Thanks for all the good information. 

Selkirk its good to know that Changsha will server as a root stock to orange and pumelo.  21 deg is cold, did you have them under cover?   I was thinking of using Changsha to dwarf the scion for maintenance reasons and for container grown trees.

HardyVermont, Does any Poncirus cause dwarfing or just the flying dragon variety?  I visited a fellow in Columbia SC (Mr Salley) who has gorgeous tropical citrus trees, planted in his yard, even a pumelo.   He puts frost blankets over them and some time even a heat source but they are in the ground and look very healthy.  I think he uses flying dragon root stock.  There are lots of wild Poncirus  in the woods nearby.  The mature trees are no more that ten feet tall I would estimate.   I would like to be able to cover my trees on cold days so I am particularly interested in drawing. Thanks.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2020, 06:57:00 PM »
HardyVermont, Does any Poncirus cause dwarfing or just the flying dragon variety?
All poncirus causes dwarfing, but poncirus Flying Dragon is especially dwarfing.

poncirus hybrid rootstock is typically less dwarfing than poncirus.

Dwarfing forces the tree to begin producing fruit earlier in its lifespan, before the tree grows big, but also often creates a degree of incompatibility that might not always be the best for the health or vigor of the tree in the long term. This may especially be a concern if you care about what the health of the tree will be 10, 15 or 25 years from now.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 07:03:44 PM by SoCal2warm »

hardyvermont

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
    • Anderson SC z 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2020, 11:00:10 PM »
HardyVermont, Does any Poncirus cause dwarfing or just the flying dragon variety?
All poncirus causes dwarfing, but poncirus Flying Dragon is especially dwarfing.

poncirus hybrid rootstock is typically less dwarfing than poncirus.

Dwarfing forces the tree to begin producing fruit earlier in its lifespan, before the tree grows big, but also often creates a degree of incompatibility that might not always be the best for the health or vigor of the tree in the long term. This may especially be a concern if you care about what the health of the tree will be 10, 15 or 25 years from now.
Precocious Poncirus is a smaller plant, so it may cause some dwarfing, but Flying Dragon is the standard rootstock for dwarfing.  It will still make a fairly large tree.  Pruning can keep it a manageable size.

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2021, 01:32:30 PM »
Dwarfing forces the tree to begin producing fruit earlier in its lifespan

Wrong again.

Dwarfing creates a more manageable size tree. If you use buds from a mature fruit bearing tree, it will normally start fruiting the following year whether it's on dwarf rootstock or not.

As hardyvermont stated there is also a Precocious Poncirus that is a true dwarf as well. I have been growing it for over 15 years & the mature tree is about 6 ft tall. It also starts flowering in about a year from seed (12-18 inches tall)

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2021, 01:50:33 PM »
Wrong again.
That's not wrong. Relax, Laaz.

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2021, 02:13:30 PM »
Sure is Charlie Brown.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2021, 02:30:34 PM »
It is certainly true for other fruit trees (like apple, cherry). For citrus, it might be less true. Maybe there would only be a difference in the very earliest years.

quote from another site:

"Another benefit of growing mini citrus trees and dwarf cultivars is that they mature faster. A young dwarf citrus tree produces fruit a few years earlier than regular fruit trees."

https://leafyplace.com/dwarf-citrus-trees/
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 02:35:30 PM by SoCal2warm »

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 02:41:41 PM »
It doesn't matter where you cut & paste from, I have been grafting citrus for over 15 years and this is false.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 02:45:59 PM »
It doesn't matter where you cut & paste from, I have been grafting citrus for over 15 years and this is false.
Okay, well, I will not argue with your personal experience and observations. Maybe your citrus grafted on Flying Dragon are just growing extremely slow and so that is the reason.

The point was that comparing trees which have reached equal size, the one on more dwarfing rootstock will produce fruit earlier, it will not have to grow as big in size to begin producing.

That's not only true for rootstock. Varieties which reach a smaller final size growing on their own roots will generally begin producing fruit much earlier, while at a smaller tree size, like kumquats.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 02:48:48 PM by SoCal2warm »

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 03:38:37 PM »
Do you have a clue what you're talking about?  :o

Laaz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
    • Charleston, SC 9a
    • View Profile
    • Citrusgrowers forum
Re: Does the changsha manderine make a good root stock for other citrus?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 04:34:56 PM »

Okay, well, I will not argue with your personal experience and observations. Maybe your citrus grafted on Flying Dragon are just growing extremely slow and so that is the reason.


Sure that must be it...





« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 04:37:09 PM by Laaz »