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Author Topic: Thoughts on this citrus  (Read 755 times)

D-Grower

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Thoughts on this citrus
« on: January 27, 2021, 09:04:42 PM »
I found these growing basically in a wooded area where nobody would have been taking care of the tree. It is more of a sprawling large bush than an actual tree. Not a large trunk going mostly upward but many long side branches arching off the main trunk lower to the ground. They are a very vivid burnt orange color as opposed to a standard orange. Don't know that the pics really show the color accurately. You can see the lemon like nipple on the fruits. They are basically lemon flavored and not limey really. However they are not wickedly sour like most lemons are. It's definitely sour and not sweet but a very tolerable level of sour. If your into sour I could see someone actually eating these out of hand enjoyably. What do y'all think of them? Are they just an odd lemon? Furthermore picked many of them and could definitely trade/sell or giveaway seeds to anyone interested.




« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 09:06:19 PM by D-Grower »
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citrange

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2021, 11:24:25 AM »
I don't know what they are, but the nipple is not just a feature of lemons. Other citrus hybrids/varieties such as Minneola have them too. The dark orange colour is unusual.
Do you think this wooded area was originally a citrus grove? If so it would be a named variety or a rootstock left over from that period. If it is a 'wild' seedling from a dropped seed then it could be anything. A picture of the tree and leaf shape might be helpful. Also, the lower trunk to see if there is any graft visible.

D-Grower

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2021, 06:51:54 PM »
I will get pics of the tree before long. Don't believe the area would have been a grove. It's the front part of a friend's property. He's an older man and his parents owned this particular land before him. It backs onto the Chipola river basin swamp. Part of the Tate's Hell Appalatchacola swamp area. There's a variety of random seed grown citrus trees on the back half this property. It's a huge property. I'd guess no less than 50 acres. Old Duncan white grapefruit trees galore, Valencia orange, navel oranges, lemons, and kumquats scattered around all over. Several generations of trees all self grown from new seedlings to dying trees. Funny thing is than every last single tree except one has excellent to acceptable fruit quality. Hundreds of trees on several properties of theirs. All from the same lineage just planted and started on each property. He really is proud of his trees. Famous guy in the area for tupelo honey. Lots of cool stuff from loquats, chinquapin, citrus, grapes, figs, to pecans. All just growing mostly unattended yet doing pretty well.
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countryboy1981

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2021, 11:07:03 PM »
My guess is that it could be Volkamer lemon.  It is used as a rootstock in our region for sour citrus varities (Lower Alabama/Northwest Florida).  Here is some info:

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/volckamer.html

I could be completely wrong.


Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2021, 11:13:02 PM »
Rough lemon sometimes turns orange. It was used as a rootstock and has a lemon like flavor that is not as sour. I have eaten them out of hand on occasion, but they are a bit sour for that. Milam Lemon is another possibility. Milam is thought by some to be a natural hybrid of sour orange and rough lemon. I would mean toward Milam from your description actually.

Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2021, 11:20:13 PM »
My guess is that it could be Volkamer lemon.  It is used as a rootstock in our region for sour citrus varities (Lower Alabama/Northwest Florida).  Here is some info:

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/volckamer.html

I could be completely wrong.

I guess we were thinking along the same lines. I suppose it could be a Volk, too. If he posts some pics of the tree and seeds, I have access to a book that should help us figure out which it is.

D-Grower

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2021, 07:49:15 AM »
Here's some pics of the tree. Looks lemony to me I guess. Doesn't really appear that it was once a rootstock but maybe the smaller trunks coming up were from suckers coming up after a dead grafted tree was there long, long ago. What y'all think?





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Citradia

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2021, 09:08:01 AM »
I’m wondering if maybe several seeds from a piece of fruit sprouted on site and now there’s several trees growing together on separate root systems.

D-Grower

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 11:15:07 AM »
Feel the same way personally. Will get a pic of the seeds too. Look lemon like too.
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Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 07:39:21 PM »
It is definitely a lemon of some kind based on the leaves. The multi-trunk is also a common lemon feature. They start branching very low and hard freezes that knock them back to the roots do the same thing. I need to pull that ID book out when I am back at work.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 08:48:28 PM by Galatians522 »

Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2021, 10:37:13 AM »
I checked that ID book. The leaves on Volkamer lemon and Millam look very similar, but they have drastically different seed counts. Volkamer is usually very seedy (20-30 or more) while Millam rairly has more than 10 seeds. Based on that I'm going to say that Countryboy is right: its a Volkamer Lemon.

D-Grower

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2021, 09:58:08 AM »
My wife juiced these lemons. I figure based on the seed counts that these are Millam. She said most of the fruits had about 6 seeds but probably none had more than 10. So guess that becomes the deciding trait.
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Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2021, 06:43:20 PM »
Well, that is interesting. I saw a couple seeds in the half fruit that you posted a picture of and assumed that the rest of the fruit had a similar seed count. It sure sounds like a Millam to me if that is all the seeds it had.

countryboy1981

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2021, 07:16:07 PM »
I never heard of milam lemon but according to ucr it has about as much cold tolerance as a regular lemon:

Quote
Sensitivity to cold about like that of true lemons.

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/milam.html

I am zone 8b here and it would have been toast to the roots two winters or more ago--at most the 2017/2018 winter here along the northern gulf coast.  Volkamer has more cold tolerance and is used as a rootstock in our area for sour fruited citrus due to its cold tolerance.

countryboy1981

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2021, 07:23:48 PM »
How did the juice taste by the way?

countryboy1981

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2021, 08:48:10 PM »
UCR also has something about Milam being related to volckameriana.  Is that the same as Volkamer Lemon?:

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This species exhibits a remarkable range of variation in fruit characters, and in India, where it is native, four relatively distinct types are recognized, one of which is similar to the form obtained from Italy known as C. volckameriana (for description see Chapot, 1965a).  There is also a sweet-fleshed form.

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/milam.html

Galatians522

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2021, 09:52:19 PM »
UCR also has something about Milam being related to volckameriana.  Is that the same as Volkamer Lemon?:

Quote
This species exhibits a remarkable range of variation in fruit characters, and in India, where it is native, four relatively distinct types are recognized, one of which is similar to the form obtained from Italy known as C. volckameriana (for description see Chapot, 1965a).  There is also a sweet-fleshed form.

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/milam.html

Volkameriana is Volkamer lemon. Millam and Volkamer are listed as different varieties in the citrus rootstock ID book that I have access to, but the UCR link you posted says that they have the same parentage (sour orange x citron). The leaves and other tree charicteristics look very similar in the photos that I looked at. Actually, the leaves are virtually identical in shape. One does tend to be slightly larger than the other, but I doubt that you could tell the difference in the field based on that. The most obvious difference that I could find was the seed count. However, since we are almost certainly talking about a seed grown tree, there is always the chance that it does not fit one mold or the other perfectly. Here is the link for the ID book I have at work. I was surprised to see that it was available for free on-line.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/citrus_rootstock/Rootstock-Literature/Rootstocks%2520for%2520Florida%2520Citrus.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHhYzJ7OXuAhVLVTABHdTgDKkQFjAKegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1KDoXw5vD2dgMO46YjtwLu
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 09:55:11 PM by Galatians522 »

countryboy1981

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2021, 10:17:52 PM »
UCR also has something about Milam being related to volckameriana.  Is that the same as Volkamer Lemon?:

Quote
This species exhibits a remarkable range of variation in fruit characters, and in India, where it is native, four relatively distinct types are recognized, one of which is similar to the form obtained from Italy known as C. volckameriana (for description see Chapot, 1965a).  There is also a sweet-fleshed form.

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/milam.html

Volkameriana is Volkamer lemon. Millam and Volkamer are listed as different varieties in the citrus rootstock ID book that I have access to, but the UCR link you posted says that they have the same parentage (sour orange x citron). The leaves and other tree charicteristics look very similar in the photos that I looked at. Actually, the leaves are virtually identical in shape. One does tend to be slightly larger than the other, but I doubt that you could tell the difference in the field based on that. The most obvious difference that I could find was the seed count. However, since we are almost certainly talking about a seed grown tree, there is always the chance that it does not fit one mold or the other perfectly. Here is the link for the ID book I have at work. I was surprised to see that it was available for free on-line.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/citrus_rootstock/Rootstock-Literature/Rootstocks%2520for%2520Florida%2520Citrus.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHhYzJ7OXuAhVLVTABHdTgDKkQFjAKegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1KDoXw5vD2dgMO46YjtwLu

Thanks for the info!

D-Grower

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2021, 09:57:11 AM »
I never heard of milam lemon but according to ucr it has about as much cold tolerance as a regular lemon:

Quote
Sensitivity to cold about like that of true lemons.

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/milam.html

I am zone 8b here and it would have been toast to the roots two winters or more ago--at most the 2017/2018 winter here along the northern gulf coast.  Volkamer has more cold tolerance and is used as a rootstock in our area for sour fruited citrus due to its cold tolerance.

I'm pretty much in zone 8b as well. Yes about 3 winters ago it was an abhorrently cold year. We had nights in the teens here in the FL panhandle. However contrary to what one would think I don't believe any of the local citrus trees really even took more than minor leaf damage. Granted many of the trees are old well established big trees. Some of my young trees got burnt to the ground but otherwise survived it. Fortunately not grafted trees so no major loss.
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swincher

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Re: Thoughts on this citrus
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2021, 04:35:50 AM »
I'd definitely be interested in seeds if that offer still stands! I was wanting an interesting lemon for the greenhouse, this would very much fit the bill.

 

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