Author Topic: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars  (Read 732 times)

Peep

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Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« on: December 14, 2022, 10:44:13 AM »
I could use some help regarding Taiwanica cultivars.

I bought the Taiwanica from Adavo, expecting the Nansho Daidai, which is known for it's narrow leaves, and this matches their picture and description (although they use pictures from other people / internet) https://www.rakytnik.com/index.php/rostliny/citrusy/hybridni-citrusy/429-c-taiwanica-oe-tan-y-shimado-c-grandis-x-c-reticulata

The leaves on the plant I received are quite round, with wide petioles (see my picture below). So I emailed about it and I got an answer:

Translated from Czech:

Quote
You're right. The Nanshô-daidai variety has narrow leaves: https://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subthumb.cfm?sub=71562

We do not offer this variety. We offer only the original species. He doesn't have narrow leaves:
https://taieol.tw/pages/44601
https://www.lesfruitiers.net/fiche.php?idVariete=1999

So it seems their own description on the website is not correct for the cultivar that they sell.

Does anyone know the name of this 'original species' cultivar?

On the web pages he gives I don't really find a name. Translated from the Taiwanese page it says "The difference from the original mother is that the petiole wing of this species is linear and the fruit is 7-9cm." So the plant from Adavo would be the 'original mother' mentioned here.

I also have the Taiwanica from Lenzi, of which I also don't know a cultivar name. But it seems different from the one that I have from Adavo. And Lenzi's Taiwanica leaves also don't seem narrow enough to be the Nansho Daidai.

Plant from Adavo:



Plant from Lenzi:



Newer leaves seem to get larger:



Best regards,

pagnr

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2022, 03:03:34 PM »
In Australia we have the narrow leaf type of taiwanica, that you were expecting.
It is a very nice looking plant with its narrow foliage and large fruit. The fruit is quite sour.
I have seen it in 3 Citrus arboretums and it is instantly recognisable.

I grew seedlings of it and they are highly true to type, with a just a few variants.

It is possible that the Australian plants came from the same USDA source and it is not the right one.
It wouldn't be the first time the plant in the USDA collection is not exactly right.

On the other hand, the plants I see on the European Citrus nursery sites often don't exactly match what I was expecting to see from that variety.

I think if you can find more information out of Taiwan or Japan it would be a good start.

The plants in the pictures on your post from Adavo and Lenzi look more like Sour Orange, Citrus aurantium.


Peep

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2022, 04:25:52 PM »
Quote
In Australia we have the narrow leaf type of taiwanica, that you were expecting.
It is a very nice looking plant with its narrow foliage and large fruit. The fruit is quite sour.
I have seen it in 3 Citrus arboretums and it is instantly recognisable.

Cool to see it in arboretums. It's very sour indeed, apparently it's considered as not very good fruit, but I also read that with sugar it does make good lemonade style drinks. (And also I though it was maybe interesting to use it for making hybrids.)

Quote
I grew seedlings of it and they are highly true to type, with a just a few variants.

It is possible that the Australian plants came from the same USDA source and it is not the right one.
It wouldn't be the first time the plant in the USDA collection is not exactly right.

On the other hand, the plants I see on the European Citrus nursery sites often don't exactly match what I was expecting to see from that variety.

I think if you can find more information out of Taiwan or Japan it would be a good start.

I'm always happy to know the exact name of a cultivar I have, but I guess I just need to find a real Nansho Daidai (narrow leaves) and then taste them all. I already have over 50 citrus plants and I'd acutally like to get that number down, but if I can't find information to compare cultivars, then I can't help but to get them and eliminate the least interesting ones myself  ::)

I am sure that the narrow leaf Nansho Daidai is present in Europe, but not many nurseries would have it. I'll try to find someone for scions.

Quote
The plants in the pictures on your post from Adavo and Lenzi look more like Sour Orange, Citrus aurantium.
Nansho Daidai / Taiwanica is also called 'Sour Orange'. I usually say Bitter Orange for aurantium, but both are correct. I also have a Furrowed Bitter Orange (Citrus aurantium canaliculata), but those leaves look different from both Lenzi's and Adavo's Taiwanica.

Florian

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
I wasn't aware that there were different cultivars of C. taiwanica. To me Nansho daidai is just the vernacular name of C. taiwanica.
Anyway, here's C. taiwanica in Eisenhut nursery (their Nr. 171):



 

vnomonee

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2022, 04:26:39 PM »
Bigger leaves are probably response to lighting conditions

Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate) has narrow leaves like your plant from Lenzi. Maybe they are selling hybrids or off-types?


« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 04:35:21 PM by vnomonee »

Peep

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2022, 05:00:13 PM »
I wasn't aware that there were different cultivars of C. taiwanica. To me Nansho daidai is just the vernacular name of C. taiwanica.
Anyway, here's C. taiwanica in Eisenhut nursery (their Nr. 171):

Yes, in the very beginning I also thought Nansho Daidai and Citrus Taiwanica was always the same thing, but there are many Taiwanica cultivars. But most of them seem pretty rare or not really cultivated, and Nansho Daidai seems the only one that has a commonly known name.

From the pictures it looks like Eisenhut has the 'actual' Nansho Daidai cultivar. I think it's likely the same as the one that pagnr talks about as 'instantly recognisable'.

Do you know if Eisenhut sells and ships scions? I'm in Belgium.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 05:08:55 PM by Peep »

Peep

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2022, 05:02:51 PM »
Quote
Bigger leaves are probably response to lighting conditions

Would bigger leaves be the result of more sun then? Or the opposite?

Quote
Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate) has narrow leaves like your plant from Lenzi. Maybe they are selling hybrids or off-types?

I couldn't say for sure, but like I wrote above, there are actually many cultivars of c. taiwanica, so they could be true taiwanica, just not the Nansho Daidai cultivar.

vnomonee

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2022, 05:16:19 PM »
In my experience less light = bigger leaves. This happens to me indoors under artificial lighthing, though I imagine the same could happen if they were greenhouse grown with less intense sunlight or if you kept them in the shade. 

Peep

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2022, 05:18:57 PM »
In my experience less light = bigger leaves. This happens to me indoors under artificial lighthing, though I imagine the same could happen if they were greenhouse grown with less intense sunlight or if you kept them in the shade.

Ah, for me the bigger leaves grew in the height of summer in a sunny spot haha
The smaller leaves were there when I received it from Lenzi.

vnomonee

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2022, 05:27:27 PM »
lol interesting well I am out of ideas, hope you find the narrow leaf type! those huge leaves do remind me of pomelo leaves (minus the petiole)

pagnr

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2022, 05:32:08 PM »
I read recently that Nansho Dai Dai is closely related to Sanbokan. Maybe there is a group of related types ?
I have not previously heard of other Taiwanica types.
Possibly the work of Professor Tanaka might be helpful, as he gave names to many types, that helped to understand and differentiate them.

Citrus miaray is also a very similar type to taiwanica, from the Phillipines.
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3574

https://idtools.org/id/citrus/citrusid/factsheet.php?name=Miaray

Some of the narrow leaf willow leaf aurantium Sour Orange varieties also resemble taiwanica.

Anybody remember the lineage of taiwanica, fairly sure it is a Sour Orange hybrid.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 05:34:41 PM by pagnr »

Peep

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2022, 05:48:48 PM »
I read recently that Nansho Dai Dai is closely related to Sanbokan. Maybe there is a group of related types ?
I have not previously heard of other Taiwanica types.
Possibly the work of Professor Tanaka might be helpful, as he gave names to many types, that helped to understand and differentiate them.

Citrus miaray is also a very similar type to taiwanica, from the Phillipines.
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3574

https://idtools.org/id/citrus/citrusid/factsheet.php?name=Miaray

Some of the narrow leaf willow leaf aurantium Sour Orange varieties also resemble taiwanica.

Anybody remember the lineage of taiwanica, fairly sure it is a Sour Orange hybrid.

Taiwanica, at least the Nansho Daidai, is about 60% pomello and 40% mandarin: https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc2588

I read that Sanbokan is a 'sour orange hybrid', with Taiwanica being 'sour orange' it could maybe be somewhat related.

"Miaray is closely related to Japanese summer orange (Citrus natsudaidai), Nansho-daidai (Citrus taiwanica) and Sanbokan (Citrus sulcata)"

"Sanbokan -> It was early classified as a sour orange hybrid and recent study showed that the parentage of sambokan is a cross of Kaikoukan (C. truncata Hort. ex Tanaka) and kishu mandarin: ♀C. truncata × ♂C. kinokuni."

http://citruspages.free.fr/souroranges.php
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 05:51:51 PM by Peep »

pagnr

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2022, 06:51:15 PM »
Taiwanica, at least the Nansho Daidai, is about 60% pomello and 40% mandarin: https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc2588

Noelle Barkley et al., “Assessing genetic diversity…”, Theor Appl Genet (2006) 112: 1519–1531: Bar graph on p. 325 shows that Nansho Daidai is of about 60% pummelo, and 40% mandarin--more mandarin than is indicated for most other sour orange accessions.

I wonder if that information is still current, in view of more recent genetic analysis using newer techniques.
I had a feeling it was narrowed down further ?

Ilya11

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2022, 03:59:36 AM »
More recent   Japanese paper claims that C.taiwanica genetically is identical to Henka mikan and is a hybrid of Kunenbo-A tangor with Yuzu.
A similiar cross produced some other Japanese varieties including Sudachi.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2023, 12:47:34 AM »
There is some evidence to suggest the Taiwanica variety may have originated from a naturalized population growing in the wild on the island of Taiwan, although humans would have brought the ancestral species to Taiwan from mainland China.
(There is a similar story to how the original grapefruits originated on the island of Barbados)
Since Taiwan, especially in the river valleys, is a great natural climate for citrus to grow, but experiences a freeze about once every 40 years, it could have been a great climate for natural selection to take place, to perhaps develop some cold tolerance or general hardiness, over many successive generations.


More recent   Japanese paper claims that C.taiwanica genetically is identical to Henka mikan and is a hybrid of Kunenbo-A tangor with Yuzu.
A similiar cross produced some other Japanese varieties including Sudachi.
Ilya, are you sure that is correct? I read that paper and it said only that they found some relationship existed between Nanshodaidai (which is C. taiwanica) and Henka mikan.
I did not read anything about a relationship with Yuzu.
(also realize that Natsudaidai is a different variety from Nanshodaidai)

If Taiwanica seems to share some ancestry in common with Yuzu, then exactly how they are related is open to speculation. Yuzu though seems to have more ancestral contribution from the original papeda, C. ichangensis, which seems to barely show up at all in DNA marker analysis of Taiwanica, if it shows up at all.


As far as I can tell, Taiwanica was not really valued except as an ornamental and occasionally for flavoring vinegar. But there could be a possibility it may have been used in very old times, perhaps before other varieties replaced it. Perhaps its main use could have been just as a rootstock. This in no way implies that Taiwanica existed before Yuzu, but perhaps for some reason a certain population at one time in history had access to Taiwanica but did not know of Yuzu.
This is all just speculation though.

The fact that DNA analysis of Taiwanica shows pomelo ancestry is not that surprising. During this time in this part of the world, "kunenbo"-type tangor-like fruits seem to have been common. This was a hybrid between mandarin orange (C. reticulata) and pomelo. It would have had more cold tolerance than pomelo (which is native to a climate further south) and possibly grown or ripened better in the cooler climate of Taiwan or southern Japan (which is in closer proximity to the ocean). The pomelo ancestry contributed aroma and flavor. Judging by the cold tolerance of some of its offspring, it is logical to conclude that the kunenbo fruit had a good level of cold tolerance, perhaps brought about by the phenomena of hybrid vigor between species (despite the sweet orange apparently not having gotten this benefit). The thicker skin from the pomelo ancestry also would have given it a long shelf life on sea voyages, making it more likely to be disseminated to the islands of Taiwan and Japan. (For the same reason, the orange reached Europe long before the mandarin orange did)

If Taiwanica has an analogous equivalent to a "European"-type citrus fruit, it would be the sour orange (C. aurantium), although of course Taiwanica has more cold tolerance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 08:44:51 PM by SoCal2warm »

bussone

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2023, 02:31:13 PM »
There is some evidence to suggest the Taiwanica variety may have originated from a naturalized population growing in the wild on the island of Taiwan, although humans would have brought the ancestral species to Taiwan from mainland China.

Is Taiwan far enough off-shore to be genetically isolated?

It's about twice as far off-shore as Madagascar is, but wild limes apparently made the jump from PNG to Goodenough Island and hopped between Australia and PNG. Fruit bats migrate between Taiwan, the Ryukyuan islands, and the Philippines. Bats could have carried them over prior to human settlement.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Nansho Daidai and other Taiwanica cultivars
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2023, 07:13:42 PM »
Is Taiwan far enough off-shore to be genetically isolated?
I think it would be very difficult for species from the mainland to reach Taiwan by natural means, perhaps not impossible. Most likely any original citrus species that were brought to Taiwan were brought there by humans - the Chinese. (With the exception of C. tachibana which was probably indigenous to either Taiwan or Southern Japan, or perhaps both)

The island of Taiwan is 160 km (about 100 miles) away from mainland China. And probably most of the citrus types did not even exist on the coast of China in that area before the Chinese civilization came, with the exception of kumquat.

There are about one thousand endemic plant species in Taiwan, meaning they exist only on Taiwan, not the mainland. So this would seem to indicate some degree of natural genetic isolation.

According to one ancient text, mandarin oranges could be found growing in the wild on the island of Hainan by around the year 1000 AD, though it is unlikely the species originated there. (Edward H. Schafer, Shore of Pearls: Hainan Island in Early Times, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1970 )
They probably escaped into the wild from human cultivation.



Forestry Bureau held a "Return of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange" event at the hiking trail entrance of the Daping Forest Road of Jiali Mountain in Nanzhuang Township, Miaoli County. Planting of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange took place at the event, where it was also pledged that this citrus species will be brought back to its place of origin (this citrus, named after Nanzhuang, is an endemic plant of Taiwan and is now on the verge of extinction in the wild). It is the hope that this act can help restore the forest ecosystem in the foothills of Taiwan and promote the development of green economy in the mountain village communities.

The Nansho Daidai Sour Orange (Citrus taiwanica Tanaka & Shimada) is a citrus species in the Rutaceae family endemic to Taiwan. It was first documented that the plant was discovered in 1926 by Japanese botanists in Miaoli's Nanzhuang Hongmaoguan, present-day Penglai Village in Nanzhuang Township, and was therefore named "Nansho Daidai Sour Orange." However, with the development and utilization of the foothill forests, the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange almost become extinct in its original discovery site, and it has been listed in the IUCN Red List as a Critically Endangered species due to its rarity.

The Penglai region in Nanzhuang is the traditional living area of the Saisiyat people. According to Gen Chih-You, a Saisiyat elder, the Saisiyat name for Nansho Daidai Sour Orange is gadayou (meaning "food prepared by mother"). The citrus has been an important plant for the Saisiyat since ancient times, since the fruit is both a snack and also has medicinal and ceremonial applications. Elder Gen recalled that when he was a child, whenever he had a cold, the family elders would grind dried Nansho Daidai Sour Orange into a powder for him to take as medicine. It was a must-have plant for general healthcare used by every Saisiyat family in the early years when medical treatment was not readily available.
According to the Forestry Bureau, the fruits and leaves of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange have a strong fragrance, while the juice has a distinctive sour taste and a slight bitterness. The fruit's unique flavor makes it very suitable for processing and consumption. Furthermore, the wood of the orange tree is extremely fine in texture, and according to literature, it was considered the best wood for making pipes, knife handles, and other delicate wooden tools in the early days.

The fruits were tested for the development of essential oil extraction, dessert-making, and tea and beverage preparation, all with amazing results. At the event, the Hsinchu Forest District Office presented a "pound cake with Nansho Daidai Sour Orange frosting" made using the juice and "Nansho Daidai Sour Orange peel nama chocolate" made using the orange peel syrup. The unique refreshing scent and tangy sweetness of the Nansho Daidai Sour Oranges greatly impressed the guests who tasted the delicious treats. It is hoped that the local tribal communities of Nanzhuang will create specialty products with Nansho Daidai Sour Oranges, as it would not only help with both species preservation and the economy, but also bring a wonderful flavor experience to the people of Taiwan.

"Return of the Nansho Daidai Sour Orange": Forestry Bureau Partners with the Saisiyat to Restore Taiwan's Endemic and Rare Plants
from Taiwan, January 29, 2021
https://www.forest.gov.tw/EN/forest-news/0067054

(It should of course be noted than Nansho daidai was already a cultivated variety in Japan in old times, before being found by the Japanese botanist growing in the wild in Taiwan. It was valued in Japan as an ornamental because the fruits continue to hang on the tree for a long time, sometimes up to several years)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 09:01:51 PM by SoCal2warm »

 

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