Tropical Fruit > Tropical Fruit Discussion

the threshold of exceptionality is where exactly?

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Epiphyte:
a month or two ago, here in the northernmost neighborhood in los angeles, i kicked a durian seedling (backstory) outside the house...



i fully appreciate that the chances of this durian seedling being exceptionally cold tolerant are extremely slim, if not vanishingly small.  from @durianlover, in the socal durian thread, i got the impression that there's barely any variation in cold tolerance among durians. 

however, i can't help but be curious about where, exactly, is the threshold of exceptionality for a durian seedling outdoors here in los angeles.  i'm guessing that my seedling surviving halloween outside isn't noteworthy.  so far the temps have dipped below 50f a few nights, with a couple relatively windy days.  last night the wind and coyotes were having a howling competition.  if not halloween, what about thanksgiving or christmas?  when would @mike t, for example, be surprised that my seedling is still alive? 

the main challenge to figuring how much a durian seedling deviates from the norm is, well, establishing the norm.  i'm sure quite a few southern queensland people and florida people have tested durian seedlings outside.  what about socal people though?  quite a few tropical plants are more tolerant of cold nights, if it heats up during the day, which generally isn't the case here during winter.  this is why even an unheated cheap pop-up greenhouse can make a big difference. 

i have a couple cheap popup greenhouses in glendale.  inside both, all along the sides, are shelves filled with all sorts of plants.  a couple months ago in one greenhouse, between the shelves and the sides, i planted in the ground a coconut palm, luc's garcinia, santol, otaheite apple, and mammea americana.  the plan is to keep cutting them back for a few years and then i'll kick them out of the greenhouse simply by lifting the sides over them.  each year the greenhouse covers need to be replaced anyways because during summer, even with the front completely open, the top of the greenhouse reaches like 130f, which causes the top of the cheap plastic to completely disintegrate. i learned the hard way that i can't keep anything on the top shelves during summer. 

maybe i'll chicken out with my durian seedling outside and plant it in the ground in the one available spot in the greenhouse, in the front right corner, which gets the most sun.  not sure where my own threshold is. 

thresholds are rather fascinating.  recently a threshold was reached for the creation of a brand new forum... figfanatic.  it still has that new forum smell.  i recently made the case that the forum should be marginally less niche by broadening itself to include all ficus.  i think that carica is arguably the most popular ficus species.  but i don't think it's more popular than all the other ficus species combined.  or is it?  anyways, there's certainly a threshold of support where the forum owner decides to implement my suggestion.  maybe it's only 3 people.  or maybe it's 30 people.  who knows.  but if you think there should be at least one designated space on the entire internet (facebook doesn't count) to discussing ficus dammaropsis, ficus auriculata, ficus sycomorus, ficus racemosa, ficus habrophylla, ficus opposita (and all the other sandpaper figs), now's your chance to voice your support.  all these neat species have been discussed here on tff but, since there's no category for ficus, they quickly get buried.  and since we can't subscribe to threads or tag people, we constantly miss out on new and useful information and ideas. 

i love tff but its inability to adapt will be the death of it.  who knows where the threshold is.  maybe all it will take is for growingfruit to create a category for tropical fruit. 

K-Rimes:
I would be very surprised to see much more than 5˚f exception to cold tolerance in a species. IE, if Durian dies below 45f, maybe you will get one that can put up with 40f for some period of time. I also have noticed that when growing off the seed energy, trees tend to be quite a bit more hardy than when they get onto their own roots.

You can certainly grow edge case species in CA, or colder parts of FL, but the crucial thing to note is: will they hold fruit to completion? I don't have space nor time for ornamental fruit trees, personally.

Jaboticaba45:
No one fruited durian in FL, even with top notch setups so far. I do think it is possible with a nice greenhouse setup though.
Socal is leagues behind FL.
Unfortunately, durian isn't possible.

My durian seedling took 32f no frosts and is still alive.
Got beat up but putting new growth.
That doesn't mean anything at all.
It will die one day and will never ever reach fruiting size.

it's a completely ornamental thing like Kevin mentioned.

I know a guy growing some durains in DC,
again, completely ornamental.
His are nice and alive, but he will never have space to fruit them ever even if they grow big.


I do think though,
with the appropriate conservatory setup, durian could be fruited anywhere.
But no one has $$$ to make one and at that point it's better to fly to SE Asia or PR and eat durian there.

0hip:
The thing about durians is that it’s not like other plants that are fine down to a set temperature and then they die. People think it’s like a banana that it’s fine unless it hit exactly 4°C and then it just dies.

Below about 15°C and 50% humidity the entire tree gets stressed and then slowly dies from root rot and other diseases. So don’t think about it as what temperate will kill it outright because once it stops thriving it will start to perish. And it can come back if winter is only a month like it is in the tropics but 4 months of even 15°C (60°F) will kill it. Not fast but slowly.

 And it’s not just the temperature too they are very density to low humidity and the new growth will abort if the humidity is below about 50%.

 On top of that if you have no cloud cover for the majority of the year the direct sun will kill the new growth. You see seedlings in the tropics planted without any shade but the cloud 80% of the time that it’s hot is what’s protecting the leaves.

Epiphyte:
k-rimes, out of curiosity, which are your 5 most ornamental fruit trees?  for me, rose apple comes to mind.  i have eugenia leitonii but it's still a seedling so hard to say.  myrciaria strigipes is a contender.  when luc garcinia and xanthochymus push out new leaves they can be striking.  my plinia cf. spiciflora is gorgeous, but "minor detail" it might be dead.  quite a few ficus come to mind, like ficus racemosa, and ficus auriculata. 

i've been meaning to ask, did you ever try growing ficus auriculata? 

jaboticaba45, what's the story behind your durian seedling being subjected to 32f??  greenhouse malfunction? 

ohip, yeah it's the same way with most phalaenopsis orchids.  they just slowly decline to death outside during the winter.  but then one surprised me by surviving the entire winter.  it's a miniature variety, not sure which of its ancestors is responsible for its cold tolerance. 

orchids have can have literally a million tiny seeds in one pod, so that's a lot of variation that facilitates relatively rapid adaptation to different niches and climates.  durian is on the opposite end of the spectrum.  good luck trying to put one million durian seeds in your suitcase. 

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