Turns out I don't have magical knowledge that exempts me from nutrient inputs

[agroventuresperu]

Hey TFF community, it's been a while since I've posted here. I wanted to share a recent video I made that might be useful for newer permaculture enthusiasts.

As many of you experienced growers already know, the "just add biology" approach often pushed in permaculture circles falls short without addressing mineral deficiencies. This reality became starkly apparent on our property in Peru, where we have two areas with identical management but dramatically different results due to underlying soil mineral content.

I documented this contrast in a video comparing the two sites, complete with ICP soil tests showing the total element levels. For many of you veterans, this information might seem obvious (I remember someone here once telling me "obviously you need to add nutrients over time if you're harvesting fruit"), but I've found this fundamental principle is often glossed over in permaculture education.

The video shows two areas of our farm about 100m apart - one thriving, one struggling - despite identical techniques. The ICP tests revealed the struggling area had only 128ppm total potassium in the topsoil.

Recently, when a permaculture instructor visited our property and suggested, "Mexican sunflower is successful at my place, and a lot of the syntropic people love it, have you considered using that plant to get more Potassium?" It was a perfect example of missing the point - you can't fix the absence of an element by simply planting an accumulator plant, right? Am I missing something here? Aren’t there laws of physics and stuff on this earth of ours? Even if Mexican sunflower were excellent at concentrating potassium, the plant can't perform alchemy - it needs to accumulate the potassium from somewhere, but our topsoil, subsoil, and parent materials are all extremely potassium deficient.

Fixing our deficiencies has been quite expensive, and I'm curious if any of you have found cost-effective solutions for large-scale remediation, particularly in tropical systems? Our conventional solution would be applying tons of wood ash, but the quantities needed make this challenging for our scale. Have used Potassium sulfate, but not sure how economically sustainable any of this is. You’d really need some high-priced value-added crops to compete with people growing in bottom-lands into the ashes of rainforests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDTgyHAPykQ

[Coconut Cream]

I agree with you, there is no magical answer that cures all deficiencies. The "natural" reaction to a plant that fails to thrive and produce in the conditions readily available, then let it die and replace with something that can. Many of the fruit trees we plant are non-native and have no business being there anyway.

As far as what nutrients a specific plant can add to your garden, my own belief is that certain plants attract certain wildlife. Every insect, every worm, every snake, every bird generates waste, sheds skin, dies, etc and that biological material is also added to the soil as it breaks down. At the very least, a well-developed garden attracts abundant wildlife that can bring in additional nutrients beyond what the plants contribute.

[JCorte]

Thanks for sharing the video of your property. 

One thing I thought of after seeing the video is that you likely have excess nitrogen on the portion of your property that isn't doing as well from the animals grazing there.  Excess nitrogen relative to potassium can cause imbalances in addition to your situation where there's already limited potassium.  From your video it seemed like you were keeping them on the portion of your property that's potassium deficient?

I think the most efficient and economical way to supplement the minerals your lacking is through foliar application.  Looked like your trees are small enough that it would be an easy way to start.

Janet

[Finca La Isla]

Nice video, you certainly are putting a lot of effort into this and your approach seems well thought out.
I’ve noticed at my farm that the soil quality varies significantly from area to area as well.  The area has a history of landslides and we had one five years ago that completely changed an area of 5000sq meters.  At first it was a soft, creepy moonscape.  Then some sections burste forth with growth while others to this day barely grow weak looking grass.  I replanted the areas of high weed growth with fruit trees and the result was amazing.  In 3-4 years I had production of sapodilla, canistel, terap, and others.  The areas that seemed unsuitable have been planted with vanilla and pitaya since they don’t really need soil.  Those epiphyts are on living posts with stakes around their base to hold the biomass they want.
Anyway, that’s a small scale solution to a good soil, bad soil solution.
On crops that produce high income we apply rock phosphate and magnesium sulfate.  We also apply manures and we apply laboratory produced lactic acid every two weeks unless it’s too dry.  Everywhere we apply microorganisms has biochar which we produce on the farm with a TLUD adapdted steel drum. 
I don’t think leaf cutter ants help in any way.  The leaves that they bring to the nest are all subsequently removed by them and decompose on top of the sterile hills they produce.
Saludos, Peter

[elouicious]

people are often shocked when i share that food can be sold as organic when treated with chemical fertiizers as long as they have a soil test that shows deficiency-

you are right- elements are well..... elemental-

the sunflower could be grown somewhere with potassium, chopped, and dropped on the deficient land but some would say that is buying fertilizer with extra steps

[Finca La Isla]

The fertilizers I am talking about are accepted as organic. Naturally produced potassium and rock phosphate are organic listed. Where you get into trouble is with urea, especially. We also use calcium, sulphur, all this qualifies as organic. Even copper sulfate.
Peter

[Fruit Jungle]

I think most scientifically minded people understand Alchemy isn't real. You can only grow C and N.

[elouicious]

Arguing against myself-

IF there was a larger concentration of nutrients further down in the soil than where you took your sample from (I have no clue if this is true for you) it is possible the plants (with long enough roots, also unsure if this is the case with Mexican sunflower) the plants could move minerals from lower soil tiers to higher soil tiers. I also assume your trees would have to have shallow roots and not be able to access the nutrients on their own

It's also possible if you had areas of the land that are not used for growing anything and you planted Mexican sunflower there, then chop and dropped them at the base of the trees you could "concentrate" the nutrients closer to the tree, assuming whatever area the Mexican sunflower was growing was initially unavailable to the feeder roots of the trees

[K-Rimes]

Potassium sulfate is certainly going to be the quickest way to solve your issues. If you can source a ton of banana, especially peels, that does have a reasonable amount of it, as does fish. If you could ferment some fish (will smell horrible), that can be great addition for your soil as well. Wood ash can be worked with, but you need to source the wood to burn in the first place, and I know in the tropics it's not the same as what we have here in North America where you have falling pine and oak annually, or need to do tons of pruning anyways so it's free flowing.

I practice permaculture techniques as much as possible, but when I need real fuel, I rely on commercial fertilizers. The combination of both strategies is what will yield the best results. At my old place, the soil was completely devoid of anything really, just sugary sand. Once I had established a reasonable soil biome, the fertilizer requirements seemed to fall off entirely, but I did not keep my foot off the synthetic fertilizer the entire time. I stopped seeing deficiencies, and the trees fruited splendidly. It was especially crazy to go back this year to meet the new owners, and see my fruit trees were in spectacular condition without the usual fertilizing I did.

[agroventuresperu]

I agree with you, there is no magical answer that cures all deficiencies. The "natural" reaction to a plant that fails to thrive and produce in the conditions readily available, then let it die and replace with something that can. Many of the fruit trees we plant are non-native and have no business being there anyway.

As far as what nutrients a specific plant can add to your garden, my own belief is that certain plants attract certain wildlife. Every insect, every worm, every snake, every bird generates waste, sheds skin, dies, etc and that biological material is also added to the soil as it breaks down. At the very least, a well-developed garden attracts abundant wildlife that can bring in additional nutrients beyond what the plants contribute.

That's a good way to look at it. We've certainly noticed an increase in biodiversity, especially bird populations since we began.

[agroventuresperu]

Thanks for sharing the video of your property. 

One thing I thought of after seeing the video is that you likely have excess nitrogen on the portion of your property that isn't doing as well from the animals grazing there.  Excess nitrogen relative to potassium can cause imbalances in addition to your situation where there's already limited potassium.  From your video it seemed like you were keeping them on the portion of your property that's potassium deficient?

I think the most efficient and economical way to supplement the minerals your lacking is through foliar application.  Looked like your trees are small enough that it would be an easy way to start.

Janet

That's a good observation, and we've since removed the chickens and stopped using Guano de las Islas (too high in N and P) for that reason. Why specifically do you suggest foliar vs. bagged micronutrients? It is my sense that you can get a better bang for your buck with bagged.

[agroventuresperu]

Nice video, you certainly are putting a lot of effort into this and your approach seems well thought out.
I’ve noticed at my farm that the soil quality varies significantly from area to area as well.  The area has a history of landslides and we had one five years ago that completely changed an area of 5000sq meters.  At first it was a soft, creepy moonscape.  Then some sections burste forth with growth while others to this day barely grow weak looking grass.  I replanted the areas of high weed growth with fruit trees and the result was amazing.  In 3-4 years I had production of sapodilla, canistel, terap, and others.  The areas that seemed unsuitable have been planted with vanilla and pitaya since they don’t really need soil.  Those epiphyts are on living posts with stakes around their base to hold the biomass they want.
Anyway, that’s a small scale solution to a good soil, bad soil solution.
On crops that produce high income we apply rock phosphate and magnesium sulfate.  We also apply manures and we apply laboratory produced lactic acid every two weeks unless it’s too dry.  Everywhere we apply microorganisms has biochar which we produce on the farm with a TLUD adapdted steel drum. 
I don’t think leaf cutter ants help in any way.  The leaves that they bring to the nest are all subsequently removed by them and decompose on top of the sterile hills they produce.
Saludos, Peter

I'm curious since we're both growing Vanilla species, do you notice a significant difference in yield when you grow the Vanilla in fertile vs. infertile areas?

[agroventuresperu]

Potassium sulfate is certainly going to be the quickest way to solve your issues. If you can source a ton of banana, especially peels, that does have a reasonable amount of it, as does fish. If you could ferment some fish (will smell horrible), that can be great addition for your soil as well. Wood ash can be worked with, but you need to source the wood to burn in the first place, and I know in the tropics it's not the same as what we have here in North America where you have falling pine and oak annually, or need to do tons of pruning anyways so it's free flowing.

I practice permaculture techniques as much as possible, but when I need real fuel, I rely on commercial fertilizers. The combination of both strategies is what will yield the best results. At my old place, the soil was completely devoid of anything really, just sugary sand. Once I had established a reasonable soil biome, the fertilizer requirements seemed to fall off entirely, but I did not keep my foot off the synthetic fertilizer the entire time. I stopped seeing deficiencies, and the trees fruited splendidly. It was especially crazy to go back this year to meet the new owners, and see my fruit trees were in spectacular condition without the usual fertilizing I did.

This all sounds like the voice of experience. The problem is a lot of people think it has to be one approach vs. the other. I'm not sure how to reach those folks.

The best bet here for free goodies, is probably coffee pulp. I'm pretty sure the people in the village basically waste it. We've gotten small amounts before to throw in our compost pile. The problem with steep, large and inaccesible properties is the volume of some of those alternative amendments required. I think it makes the most sense to find the most concentrated form of whatever is needed, and figure out how to apply it in such a way that won't damage the plants, soil life, or leach away.

There's a lot of "low-hanging fruit" in terms of nutrients that are needed in very small quantities that can be remedied without too much struggle. I've got a video in the pipleline of us applying Selenium, for example.

Arguing against myself-

IF there was a larger concentration of nutrients further down in the soil than where you took your sample from (I have no clue if this is true for you) it is possible the plants (with long enough roots, also unsure if this is the case with Mexican sunflower) the plants could move minerals from lower soil tiers to higher soil tiers. I also assume your trees would have to have shallow roots and not be able to access the nutrients on their own

It's also possible if you had areas of the land that are not used for growing anything and you planted Mexican sunflower there, then chop and dropped them at the base of the trees you could "concentrate" the nutrients closer to the tree, assuming whatever area the Mexican sunflower was growing was initially unavailable to the feeder roots of the trees

I've actually pondered this a lot. I know some of the lab results were flawed, and I'm pretty sure all soil tests are innately limited. I'm not sure if this is correct, but it seems like soil tests just treat a property as if the soil were only so deep, and below that it's just some purely inert material devoid of any nutrients. A lot of soils in the tropics, like Ultisols, for example, are known for having good anion exchange capacity (think sulfates, nitrates, chlorides) in the subsoil. So, I'd be curious what testing would reveal if I dug down to one meter or more. Unfortunately, the cations are almost universally leached in these situations.

[K-Rimes]

The problem is a lot of people think it has to be one approach vs. the other. I'm not sure how to reach those folks.

Yes, I encounter this all the time. Permaculture folks think they have cracked the code of unlimited productivity with only the smallest of organic inputs to the soil, but there is no way around it, if you are removing literal tons of fruit or organic material from a soil - it is being depleted. "The Midwest has lost 57 billion metric tons of topsoil over the last 160 years, new study finds". Even if your soil is incredible, kilometre deep of the very best stuff on the planet, it is being absorbed by your trees and taken skyward, or away in the form of pounds of fruit.

Fruit trees are less resource intensive than are annual crops like corn, so you can certainly get ahead of their needs and soil depletion with appropriate amendments (organic or synthetic), re-use of the pruning wood or leaf mulch, and create a circular system but it is WAY HARDER to do this only organically than by use of fertilizers.

The tropics are always seen in this totally optimistic dreamy way that it is so easy, but every climate and soil condition has its challenges. Whether it is water and akalinity in California, minimal native soil on top of limestone rock in FL, or extremely acidic and heavy organic content in the jungle, we need to adapt the best we can to achieve our goals. I am 100% a permaculture believer and enthusiast, but at the end of the day, my life is short and a bag of fertilizer has phenomenal return on investment in comparison to spending days and days chipping tree limbs and hand distributing them around a property in a wheelbarrow. At my old place, I could put 5000lb of woodchips down and they would have been consumed by the soil in 9 months. Yes, it is the right answer for that soil type, empty sugar sand, but it is simply not possible for a single person to achieve this level of work even on a single acre like I had before. When you increase your planting area into the 10s or 100s of acres, it is a lofty goal to be permaculture 100% of the way, truly the dream, but no one is going to do that for profit. It is for your soul, and the planet's health. The new owners of the property I left made out like bandits as far as soil health, but I do not see it as theirs, I see it as a job well done for planet earth. I hope they will make good use of my efforts.

[Finca La Isla]

It’s taken awhile but our place is profitable as an organic agroforestry farm.  It works because we grow stuff that gets a good price.  It’s a business.

[K-Rimes]

It’s taken awhile but our place is profitable as an organic agroforestry farm.  It works because we grow stuff that gets a good price.  It’s a business.

I have always assumed, maybe I am wrong, but that you chose the right place in the first place. Great climate, soil, and water source? I think you can remove so many of your challenges by being extremely picky in the first place. I see this at the ranch I am working at / living at. It has fantastic mind blowing soil for California standards, and the water is great too. What took me years to achieve at my old place, if not was completely impossible, is achieved in a few weeks there. Things just simply grow like weeds with no input. In fact, the biggest job there is actually reducing the amount of grasses and native plants that do not stop growing even with no water!

You're right about growing stuff that gets a good price. It's not just choosing something to grow, it is knowing that there is ROI on the other side, and knowing where you will sell it.

[Finca La Isla]

As far as carefully picking the right place, I’ve been lucky.  I realize now that sure, I’ve made some good choices, but things worked out on their own that might not have. 
Besides the good growing area you have to have somewhere you can sell the production.  I had a vision for that and everything came together.  The town became a tourist center.  Costa Ricans are terrific fruit buyers.  Panamanians are not fresh food buyers, for example, so I’m lucky there as well.
My farm and my work here is my passion and I will never retire.  But it’s a business and that fact strongly affects our decisions.

[Finca La Isla]

As far as the vanilla is concerned, I don’t have production comparisons right now but the growth looks the same in the 3 areas where I have plants. 
One of those areas has good soil underneath.  Another is too wet for my liking and the third has poor soil from a landslide.
But I have seen vanilla grown on cement or gravel in Mexico.  Then they support a medium of composting biomass that measure about70cm across and 30cm high.  That medium gets applications of all kinds of stuff.  The idea with having gravel underneath is to keep out any pathogens that might be in the soil.
Peter

[Jaros]

It seems to me that you are very unlucky with your parent material. Sandstone would usually be one of the worst bedrocks when it comes to nutrients as it is often very rich in silica. Judging from your test you also have a lot of aluminium and iron there. Igneous and most of metamorphic rocks (except for quartzite, which is metamorphosed sandstone) have a variety of minerals that could deliver necessary nutrients upon weathering. The same would be valid for other sedimentary rocks except maybe for very pure limestone and dolomite.

Judging from your other videos, it seems that your land is very prone to landsliding. And your least productive site has indeed many characteristics of a landslide source area. So all the soil with nutrients that accumulated from biological activity and aeolian sedimentation (your neighbour's lost nutrients from burning) got swept away. Chemical weathering is very fast in the tropics so the new soil that formed on your site is just a nutrient-poor weathered parent material.

Since the the tropical soils are usually deeply weathered, it makes sense to plant mexican sunflower or similar plants that can accumulate nutrients from the freshly weathered material down below, but that wouldn't work out in your case.

[Finca La Isla]

On rather steep slopes we plant some hedges using glyrcidium or flemengia creating alleyways between the hedges for locating fruit trees.  The hedges trap the natural flow downhill, creating passive terraces.  The terraces are formed from nitrogen fixers and trap biomass and other nutrients that would otherwise continue downhill.  When the hedges are pruned the material is placed sideways just above the hedge. The trees in the spaces between the hedges then tend to feed where the nutrients are trapped.
Peter

[tropical_rag_g-fruitforum]

I came across this book on cow poop fermentation called Panchagavya.

Of interest to me was a farmer’s report on his mango orchard program.

https://archive.org/details/PANCHGAVYA



If you have livestock on your farm, this book and methods might work well for you.

[agroventuresperu]

As far as the vanilla is concerned, I don’t have production comparisons right now but the growth looks the same in the 3 areas where I have plants. 
One of those areas has good soil underneath.  Another is too wet for my liking and the third has poor soil from a landslide.
But I have seen vanilla grown on cement or gravel in Mexico.  Then they support a medium of composting biomass that measure about70cm across and 30cm high.  That medium gets applications of all kinds of stuff.  The idea with having gravel underneath is to keep out any pathogens that might be in the soil.
Peter

Isn't the vast vast majority of Costa Rica made up of Andisols (volcanic soils)?

[agroventuresperu]

It seems to me that you are very unlucky with your parent material. Sandstone would usually be one of the worst bedrocks when it comes to nutrients as it is often very rich in silica. Judging from your test you also have a lot of aluminium and iron there. Igneous and most of metamorphic rocks (except for quartzite, which is metamorphosed sandstone) have a variety of minerals that could deliver necessary nutrients upon weathering. The same would be valid for other sedimentary rocks except maybe for very pure limestone and dolomite.

Judging from your other videos, it seems that your land is very prone to landsliding. And your least productive site has indeed many characteristics of a landslide source area. So all the soil with nutrients that accumulated from biological activity and aeolian sedimentation (your neighbour's lost nutrients from burning) got swept away. Chemical weathering is very fast in the tropics so the new soil that formed on your site is just a nutrient-poor weathered parent material.

Since the the tropical soils are usually deeply weathered, it makes sense to plant mexican sunflower or similar plants that can accumulate nutrients from the freshly weathered material down below, but that wouldn't work out in your case.

This is the sort of geological talk that has been missing from the conversation. I really appreciate it. You sound like you're knowledgable on the topic.

[Finca La Isla]

Your question about Costa Rican soils doesn’t really seem to have anything to do with my post.
But anyway, the Central Valley of CR where most coffee is grown is known for volcanic soils.  Many other areas have poor, red soil. On my farm we have a brown, clay loam, which is pretty good.  But the soil is not the same everywhere.  Top soil can be very thin and fragile and where there have been recent landslides you get a lot if variety.
Tectonically, we’re very affected by the Nazca plate.  Sounds Peruvian…..
Peter

[agroventuresperu]

I agree with you, there is no magical answer that cures all deficiencies. The "natural" reaction to a plant that fails to thrive and produce in the conditions readily available, then let it die and replace with something that can. Many of the fruit trees we plant are non-native and have no business being there anyway.

As far as what nutrients a specific plant can add to your garden, my own belief is that certain plants attract certain wildlife. Every insect, every worm, every snake, every bird generates waste, sheds skin, dies, etc and that biological material is also added to the soil as it breaks down. At the very least, a well-developed garden attracts abundant wildlife that can bring in additional nutrients beyond what the plants contribute.

I've been thinking about this comment lately. Doesn't it also work the opposite direction too? Birds for example. Cattle egrets more specifically is something I observed that made me remember this comment.. When I see them visit our cows in their silvopasture setting they usually show up about an hour after dawn, and descend into the paddock with the cows, stay for most of the day and then fly away in the late afternoon. They nest somewhere far away (not on our land) and it's great while they're here pooping, but they also eat bugs and whatnot from our property, and I assume a portion of those nutrients are then exported after they fly away.

Or leaf cutter ants that are on a neighbor's degraded property and walk a half kilometer to defoliate my fruit trees and carry the vegetation away into their underground nest that's also not on our land.