Author Topic: Turns out I don't have magical knowledge that exempts me from nutrient inputs  (Read 9867 times)

agroventuresperu

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As far as the vanilla is concerned, I don’t have production comparisons right now but the growth looks the same in the 3 areas where I have plants. 
One of those areas has good soil underneath.  Another is too wet for my liking and the third has poor soil from a landslide.
But I have seen vanilla grown on cement or gravel in Mexico.  Then they support a medium of composting biomass that measure about70cm across and 30cm high.  That medium gets applications of all kinds of stuff.  The idea with having gravel underneath is to keep out any pathogens that might be in the soil.
Peter

Are you growing Vanilla isolated from soil in the way you described, or are all your plots grown in contact with native soil?

K-Rimes

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I agree with you, there is no magical answer that cures all deficiencies. The "natural" reaction to a plant that fails to thrive and produce in the conditions readily available, then let it die and replace with something that can. Many of the fruit trees we plant are non-native and have no business being there anyway.

As far as what nutrients a specific plant can add to your garden, my own belief is that certain plants attract certain wildlife. Every insect, every worm, every snake, every bird generates waste, sheds skin, dies, etc and that biological material is also added to the soil as it breaks down. At the very least, a well-developed garden attracts abundant wildlife that can bring in additional nutrients beyond what the plants contribute.

I've been thinking about this comment lately. Doesn't it also work the opposite direction too? Birds for example. Cattle egrets more specifically is something I observed that made me remember this comment.. When I see them visit our cows in their silvopasture setting they usually show up about an hour after dawn, and descend into the paddock with the cows, stay for most of the day and then fly away in the late afternoon. They nest somewhere far away (not on our land) and it's great while they're here pooping, but they also eat bugs and whatnot from our property, and I assume a portion of those nutrients are then exported after they fly away.

Or leaf cutter ants that are on a neighbor's degraded property and walk a half kilometer to defoliate my fruit trees and carry the vegetation away into their underground nest that's also not on our land.

In my opinion, it is rare that nature itself is really *stealing* from your land in a meaningful way. It's usually pretty close to net zero, even in the case of egrets eating things and flying off, or leaf cutter ants taking leaves. Even with gophers in CA, which are the bane of my fruit tree growing existence, they can be reasonably helpful to loosen up hardened clay soils and may have a purpose. It's just the reality of your environment and you'll need to find a way to work with them, or deter them.

In any case, it really does sound to me like you just need to find any organic amendments you can acquire easily and cheaply in your area. It can be anything. Wood, manure, leaves, coffee grounds, agricultural by products, etc. Do they do any sugarcane processing near you? The squished canes are nice fluffy wood. Is there a sawmill nearby? That has a ton of great fluffy sawdust they'd love you to cart off. Think of those types of industries and see what you can do.

Finca La Isla

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For this purpose we work for the most diversity possible. Our farm has ample secondary rainforest with a large native canopy. We rely on these forest corridors to support our soils in the cultivated orchard areas.
Peter

agroventuresperu

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For this purpose we work for the most diversity possible. Our farm has ample secondary rainforest with a large native canopy. We rely on these forest corridors to support our soils in the cultivated orchard areas.
Peter

Yeah, I've collected sacks of good forest topsoil and litter. It makes a real difference.

agroventuresperu

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I agree with you, there is no magical answer that cures all deficiencies. The "natural" reaction to a plant that fails to thrive and produce in the conditions readily available, then let it die and replace with something that can. Many of the fruit trees we plant are non-native and have no business being there anyway.

As far as what nutrients a specific plant can add to your garden, my own belief is that certain plants attract certain wildlife. Every insect, every worm, every snake, every bird generates waste, sheds skin, dies, etc and that biological material is also added to the soil as it breaks down. At the very least, a well-developed garden attracts abundant wildlife that can bring in additional nutrients beyond what the plants contribute.

I've been thinking about this comment lately. Doesn't it also work the opposite direction too? Birds for example. Cattle egrets more specifically is something I observed that made me remember this comment.. When I see them visit our cows in their silvopasture setting they usually show up about an hour after dawn, and descend into the paddock with the cows, stay for most of the day and then fly away in the late afternoon. They nest somewhere far away (not on our land) and it's great while they're here pooping, but they also eat bugs and whatnot from our property, and I assume a portion of those nutrients are then exported after they fly away.

Or leaf cutter ants that are on a neighbor's degraded property and walk a half kilometer to defoliate my fruit trees and carry the vegetation away into their underground nest that's also not on our land.

In my opinion, it is rare that nature itself is really *stealing* from your land in a meaningful way. It's usually pretty close to net zero, even in the case of egrets eating things and flying off, or leaf cutter ants taking leaves. Even with gophers in CA, which are the bane of my fruit tree growing existence, they can be reasonably helpful to loosen up hardened clay soils and may have a purpose. It's just the reality of your environment and you'll need to find a way to work with them, or deter them.

In any case, it really does sound to me like you just need to find any organic amendments you can acquire easily and cheaply in your area. It can be anything. Wood, manure, leaves, coffee grounds, agricultural by products, etc. Do they do any sugarcane processing near you? The squished canes are nice fluffy wood. Is there a sawmill nearby? That has a ton of great fluffy sawdust they'd love you to cart off. Think of those types of industries and see what you can do.

We get sawdust alright, but it doesn't work how you assume down here. Unless you're interested in a bunch of literal garbage such as plastic, used diapers, etc. there really is no waste in this part of the world. Sawdust definitely costs money. For example, there's almost a bidding war to get the spoiled produce and juice stand fibers at the market among all the smallscale pork producers. About the only thing I can think of that might actually be free is rice husk ash, but I'm not sure about that, probably can get it for free if you're willing to bag it up yourself and bring your own respirator. People in the village might be willing to part with their coffee pulp during the season for a small delivery fee. There's a certain practicality (and lack thereof) involved in getting bulk organic amendments delivered and applied in very remote, steep areas without access.

Something that seems to be lacking from the market here is a business producing very high-quality composts and compost extracts. And no, we're not positioned to create such a business.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2025, 07:30:37 PM by agroventuresperu »

Coconut Cream

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I've been thinking about this comment lately. Doesn't it also work the opposite direction too? Birds for example.

Good point, it stands to reason that the same principle could also work against you. I didn't think about that.
USDA Zone 10A - St. Lucie County, Florida, USA - On the banks of the St. Lucie River

agroventuresperu

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Potassium sulfate is certainly going to be the quickest way to solve your issues. If you can source a ton of banana, especially peels, that does have a reasonable amount of it, as does fish. If you could ferment some fish (will smell horrible), that can be great addition for your soil as well. Wood ash can be worked with, but you need to source the wood to burn in the first place, and I know in the tropics it's not the same as what we have here in North America where you have falling pine and oak annually, or need to do tons of pruning anyways so it's free flowing.

I practice permaculture techniques as much as possible, but when I need real fuel, I rely on commercial fertilizers. The combination of both strategies is what will yield the best results. At my old place, the soil was completely devoid of anything really, just sugary sand. Once I had established a reasonable soil biome, the fertilizer requirements seemed to fall off entirely, but I did not keep my foot off the synthetic fertilizer the entire time. I stopped seeing deficiencies, and the trees fruited splendidly. It was especially crazy to go back this year to meet the new owners, and see my fruit trees were in spectacular condition without the usual fertilizing I did.

What do you think about basalt dust and other rock dusts as K sources? I know with Potassium sulfate fertilizer you can create a feast or famine scenario with plants. I think the rock dusts, on the other hand, might not be a very efficient source of K and require very high-volumes to equal the amount gained from K2SO4. What I grapple with here is that the disadvantages of the commercial potassium fertilizers (downregulation of K-solubilizing bacteria, mycorrhizal fungi, disrupting microbial quorum sensing, etc.) might be outweighed by the disadvantages of total K levels being extremely deficient.

Finca La Isla

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I think rock dust is a great idea and we use it. I wouldn’t compare it in any way with rock phosphate or potassium sulfate. The rock dust to me is more of a long term project that can help a lot with texture and balancing out a soil that is almost all clay. Eventually small amounts of minerals should become available but that’s not going to be like the phosphate or potassium which are amendments that you might apply in more frequent cycles like every 6 months perhaps.
We see rock dust as more like biochar in that once it’s applied to a spot it doesn’t get applied there again. The biochar is an essential part of our microorganism application program.
Peter

agroventuresperu

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Do you have a specific regulated product in Costa Rica that you use for rock dust? I used a rock dust product here in Peru as part of our initial amendment applications but it was unregulated, and no third party lab test or spec sheet, so who knows what I was applying. I understand your primary goal was not to add nutrients with it.

Ideally I would find a rock dust source high in Potassium and use that, but depending on the rock, the Potassium levels would be 10-20 times lower than Potassium sulfate. Our context is such that it is pretty much a dealbreaker to apply something that requires 10-20 times more weight/volume.


Finca La Isla

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In CR you can get certified rock dust, even imported stuff like azomite but we went for the basic and use it along with potassium sulphate.
You’ve complained about your soil being out of balance before and I think a good amount of basic rock dust can help. Our issue is the stuff is so damn heavy to be hauling up hill on the farm. I’ve seen durian do very well in a soil with grit and so I’m inspired. The applications of potassium and phosphate are light applications.