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Messages - caladri

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Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB: Shikuwasa aka Citrus depressa
« on: September 27, 2023, 10:01:59 PM »
The Apple Festival is this Sunday, which means I'll be spending this Sunday afternoon zonked out from eating too many apples :)

I used to live in Honolulu when I was a kid and was taken in by two families of Okinawan descent, so I am very partial to helping if I possibly can. It's weird that that guy is being so possessive! In my experience, they are incredibly seedy fruit. From a 2kg shipment of fruit from Japan, I think I had (based on counting and weighing) about four thousand seeds. With only 20% zygotic embryos, I'd think one fruit and a bit of patience would do more than enough. With a local grower, though, a bud or two ought to be enough. Short-sighted of him; you could help him propagate a few dozen grafted trees and he could sell those for a more reasonable price, and give you a few for your trouble! Wishing you very good luck.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB: Shikuwasa aka Citrus depressa
« on: September 27, 2023, 07:46:25 PM »
UH Mānoa's agriculture department reported in July of 2017 ( that it was becoming increasingly popular both as a fruit and rootstock around Maui. If you reach out to them, they may be able to point you in the right direction. Failing that, I'd reach out to the organizers of the Okinawan Festival on Oʻahu, as I gather fruit has been available at the festival in the past. Good luck, and report back! I'm sure some other forum members in the islands would love to know. (I'm not sure the origin of any Hawaiian accessions of Shekwasha, but it would be interesting to do some research there, as to whether they were older Okinawan imports, more recent (and perhaps illicit) Okinawan imports, or brought in from one of the introductions to the mainland as part of rootstock trials.)

At least since OP is in Canada, it is actually possible to get budwood brought in from Italy with a phyto (and maaaaybe a bog-standard import permit), but last time I asked, I think Tintori won't do it, and basically said that I should come there and collect the budwood myself and get the phyto myself. I've thought about having someone else make a trip to Tintori and gather a bunch of budwood and a phyto for quick shipping to Canada, but I haven't had the wherewithal to bother. (If anyone on the forum wants to be involved in such a caper, I've got a shopping list and the willingness to actually do things like this!)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Planting seeds of Citrus Bergamia
« on: September 21, 2023, 12:26:22 PM »
Conventional wisdom is that bergamot is largely monoembryonic, i.e. that offspring should be zygotic/sexual. I'm growing some from seed, but mine are about as far along as yours :)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Commercial scale citrus in the cold?
« on: September 20, 2023, 12:23:53 AM »
USDA zones are misleading, and I suspect not what you're really asking about. The Pacific Northwest is challenging in terms of heat units more than in terms of annual low, although prolonged cold periods can be problematic. Walter Raleigh grew groves of sour oranges in Surrey, England, which were quite long-lived before being wiped out by a single bad year. There is a bit of commercial citrus in cooler parts of Japan and China (possibly also Korea?), and there are piles of (mostly failed or poorly-performing) Soviet efforts across some parts of the USSR that are certainly not traditional citrus-growing regions.

It would be interesting to know what rootstock those plantings are using, as my own experience talking to commercial growers who are considering growing yuzu up here in BC is that they have absolutely horrible ideas about rootstock selection.

Probably not helpful to you, anyway, since they can't ship to Texas :(

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB Kumquat seeds.
« on: September 12, 2023, 11:00:50 PM »
It will be cheaper and give better results to just ask for help identifying your grocery store kumquats from fruit; there are very few varieties available in grocery stores in the US outside of specialty markets, and I don't think it would be likely to be very difficult :)

Spend some time on Google Scholar. There's no minimum age, but it depends on skill, level of care provided, etc. The site is broken right now, but the UC Citrus Production Manual is a great resource to get oriented in general.
Spend some time with the archives of this forum (and others) and on Google Scholar, too.

Go to Madison Nursery web site.  Madison Nursery has a great selection and quality trees.  They can ship direct to you.

Yes, this! And look at their 'quat' section, it'll blow your mind compared to the few you're thinking about maybe getting :)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: An introduction, of sorts.
« on: August 29, 2023, 04:13:47 PM »
What is K x R?

Koethen sweet orange x Rubidoux trifoliate orange

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: US-802 citrumelo
« on: August 29, 2023, 03:27:15 AM »
No viable buds on the rootstock which you could bud onto something else?

Given that you're in Florida, it may be more likely that they're simply in the environment rather than associated with a commercially-propagated tree. Whatever you end up doing, definitely try to select something you're willing and able to keep up. Your local agricultural extension might have the best insight about what to do in your area, based on their knowledge of local ACP/HLB conditions.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus hybrid crosses
« on: August 19, 2023, 09:47:05 PM »
As far as I can tell, one of the most exciting sources on nifty crosses with Australian citrus is the Herbalistics Facebook page. Wish they were selling seeds of all their crosses abroad!

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB C-35 citron seed
« on: August 19, 2023, 02:24:14 PM »
I find TreeSource much more patient, responsive, and reliable than Lyn, but I haven't bought seed from them yet. They do offer C-35 and C-32. I don't know whether TreeSource can ship to Arizona, but I'd expect so. If you give them a call, Lloyd should be able to answer any questions.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citron/Etrog ID
« on: August 19, 2023, 01:22:28 PM »
Citrons are extremely genetically diverse, and varied. It reminds me of some of the ones that grow feral in parts if Australia. It's not a diamante (the variety of citron which, due to CCPP's naming, gets sold as though "etrog" were the proper cultivar name within the US, and lots of US members follow suit in thinking that there are other kinds of citron which are suitable for use as an etrog!), and probably not a variety of citron sold within the US, if it is a named variety and not a seedling.

Looks great for candying!

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus seed vendors that can do phyto?
« on: August 12, 2023, 12:35:12 PM »
AusCitrus is definitely a good one, and definitely do international orders. There's folks in South Africa, including CRI, who seem like they ought to work, but I've had a difficult time communicating with them (I have tried.)

It seems like Citrus New Zealand was supposed to have a trusted budwood distribution program, but I've also struggled to find information about it. Have you contacted them to ask about domestic seed suppliers? (And if you do, or if you already know, I'd be very keen to know what kind of seed they have available, and whether they ship internationally! I've read some historical accounts that include information about when different rootstocks came into use in New Zealand, but don't know anything about the contemporary landscape. I assume it's probably pretty basic, unlike Australia which has had an infusion of Chinese funding and germplasm to support closer ties with China around the citrus industry all of which is export-restricted.)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus seed vendors that can do phyto?
« on: August 11, 2023, 11:34:42 AM »
In my experience or research around US sources:
  • Citrus TreeSource
  • Lyn Citrus Seed (although they've demanded an import permit even for destinations where only a phytosanitary certificate is required, which is impossible to get)
  • Any of the government/university programs that sell seed
  • Sheffield's (their Poncirus seed is okay)

Note that the phytosanitary certificate for New Zealand for seeds from the US has to confirm that the seeds were produced in an area where citrus canker and HLB are not known to occur. That might be a tough one to get from the USDA, since seeds do not transmit either disease, and seeds are often produced in areas where both are known to occur.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: source for DaisySL?
« on: August 04, 2023, 10:11:55 PM »
TreeSource carry DaisySL (the code is "DSL" in their system), but I haven't seen it in any of the recent liner availability lists I've had from them. They do sell budwood, but I don't know if a license is required for DaisySL as with some other relative new releases.

And yes, DaisySL is an irradiated bud sport of Daisy, so you want VI 763, which is in CCPP's variety list, but not listed among the available varieties. Again, there may be a licensing issue here, I'm not sure.

This is very cool then. How's the uniformity of your seedlings? My assumption with anything c reticulata is it's probably more nucellar then not, but I'd love to know what you're experience has been.

Academic sources say about 20% zygotic, and that about matches my observations.

Oh nice find!

Maybe the nursery had some stock in their collection and decided to propagate it on the chance people would be interested in it for the HLB resistance genes it might carry.

Whatever the reason, nice to see C. glauca crosses in the trade. Not sure who could grow this, since I assume the Shekwasa parent isn't cold hardy at all, being from Okinawa.

Back when Shekwasha was being trialed as a rootstock in north Florida, it was considered rather cold hardy, and Agrumi Lenzi and others describe it as being very cold hardy today. Some of the sour mandarins are extremely cold hardy. Some sources report shekwasha being about as cold hardy as changsha mandarin or a citrumelo. I'd guess it depends on the weather before the freeze, i.e. whether the tree is semi-dormant or not.

I'm growing a large number of shekwasha seedlings from multiple sources because it seems like it's worth finding out rather than trying to guess. (I'm very fond of sour mandarins anyway, and particularly shekwasha, so having lots around is a win for me even if it doesn't turn out to generate any particularly hardy seedlings.)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: graftingg additional roots on trees
« on: July 21, 2023, 03:19:05 AM »
Is etrog compatible with trifoliate? I know some lemons and citrons have weird graft incompatibilities. Maybe try some lemon seedlings as rootstocks too?

I wonder if part of the problem you're seeing is a delayed incompatibility with whatever rootstock the nursery used.

This article ( seems to suggest that citrons produce smaller trees with smaller yields on trifoliate and trifoliate hybrids, performing much better on sour orange and Volk. The best performance on a trifoliate hybrid seems to be on Troyer citrange. That article also provides some interesting background and context, including noting that no outright incompatibility was observed, so for dense plantings (and maybe also container plants?), trifoliates might make good rootstocks.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: July 20, 2023, 08:11:41 PM »
I'm sure growing conditions matter, too, and tachibana is also fairly genetically diverse, such that fruit quality varies a lot. Of course, with them mostly not being grown for fruit eating, that doesn't much matter. I'm curious about your comment about shekwasha: do you dislike them ripe? I like them when very, very ripe; I understand that culturally and commercially they're most useful in Japan when green, but a properly tree-ripened fruit is really quite lovely.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: July 20, 2023, 07:14:10 PM »
I'm so glad you enjoyed the tachibana orange! I really don't know why western sources persist in calling it inedible or unpleasant. I think it's quite nice.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Songbirds nesting in Poncirus
« on: July 11, 2023, 10:31:59 PM »
In my area, I'd wonder about birds that nest in Crataegus finding themselves at home in Poncirus, and in some parts of the US, I'd wonder about the native Zanthoxylum species. Thorny and dense growth is definitely a pretty great nesting niche if you're adapted for it!

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Is this a Kaffir lime tree?
« on: July 05, 2023, 04:34:52 PM »
What makes you think makrut? If it's the wide-ish petioles, I'd be unconvinced, as those are sort of normally-wide petioles for lots of other citrus, and the distinctive thing about makrut is that the petioles are wide and shaped such that the leaf looks doubled.

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