The Tropical Fruit Forum

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: ajeshcool47 on August 24, 2019, 12:37:04 AM

Title: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: ajeshcool47 on August 24, 2019, 12:37:04 AM
Very sad to read various articles about the current fire in the Amazon, some says it is man made ..what is actually happening, can anybody from Brazil give a clear picture...
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: giorgosgr on August 24, 2019, 02:39:59 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/34YRZQLB/108391892-brazil-annual-fires-nc.png) (https://postimg.cc/34YRZQLB)
I am not from Brazil but its not that all the other years there were no fires... its just worse this year. In 2016 it was nearly the same but then noone outside Brazil at least cared
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 24, 2019, 03:45:05 AM
Those are man made fires to clear the land for agriculture and infrastructure.
People voted for it and the fires are made by politicians.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: All the fruit on August 24, 2019, 05:47:39 AM
It seems that the new president needs to please his agrobusiness supporters so he had allowed large scale logging and burning even inside national parks and Native American reservations😡
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 24, 2019, 07:26:10 AM
This is an intersting subject to me and I do have friends in Brazil devoted to forest regeneration of degeraded land.
One interesting fact which is mostly overlooked is that recent deforestation has decreased a lot in the past ten years, when compared on a longer scale. Compare this graph which ends at 2013 to the one previously posted by giorgosgr which begins in 2013:
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/11/annual-rate-of-legal-deforestation-in-the-amazon-in-km2-per-year-197788-2013-inpe0.png (https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/11/annual-rate-of-legal-deforestation-in-the-amazon-in-km2-per-year-197788-2013-inpe0.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8LL9hGJ/amazon1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8LL9hGJ)

So as bad as it is now, on a longer scale deforestation rates have improved.

Ironically, in some pre-colombian Amazonian forests, indigenous small scale agroforestry practices used fire especially in an understory to clear land. This pattern was in certain areas  and not across the whole of Amazonia, but a look at those areas has some important lessons.
The fire appears to have been used in the understory and is believed to have left much of the overstory intact while changing the species composition towards human used plants. Rsearchers can determine what grew by looking at pollen species and abundance. In the mid 1800's- 1920's, there was a rubber boom time in which fire was suppressed to maintain fire intolerant rubber trees. After that time, management includes fire suppression which alters the flammable wood load such that mega fires capable of caopy destruction takes place.
Here is the graphic:
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/380121/fevo-06-00111-HTML/image_m/fevo-06-00111-g010.jpg (https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/380121/fevo-06-00111-HTML/image_m/fevo-06-00111-g010.jpg)

Lastly, while discussion recently has focused politically on Brazil which has the largest forest, 60% of the Amazon is in Brazil. The second largest portion of deforestation takes place in socialist Bolivia and other countries.
This shows deforestation other than Brazil (site has much more data):
https://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/rainforests/photos/amazon_annual_deforestation_no_brazil.jpg (https://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/rainforests/photos/amazon_annual_deforestation_no_brazil.jpg)

There is a lot of pressure across the world to make incomes and food for people. There are ways to reforest degraded land which are regenerative of forests. Have a look at what agroforestry can do. I follow their agroforestry techniques closely and am using some of them here in Florida. here is an introductory video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSPNRu4ZPvE&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSPNRu4ZPvE&t)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Orkine on August 24, 2019, 07:26:30 AM
Fire is a natural and necessary part of land management and could be a good thing.
The only questions is if the logging and clearing is contributing to more frequent fire regime that does not allow regeneration of the ecosystem between episodes.

In my assessment, many reporters/bloggers have become lazy and will more readily sensationalize a story than create one to truly inform.  I hope someone on the forum with expertise in this subject and knowledge of what is happening in the Amazon can give us a comprehensive report. 
Pineislander, thanks for your post.  I was writing this when you posted but your post confirms my suspicion that there was more sensationalization and politics  in the current stories.
I still hope a forest management expert can weigh in and improve our knowledge.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: frukt on August 24, 2019, 08:22:00 AM
I think its easy to blame brazil for burning the amazon but its not a local problem. Exploiting nature is a fundamental part of capitalism and then I think europe and Us are using more of the goodies then brazil. So they shouldnt through stones in the glasshouse and they shouldnt put anyone else then themselves in the shaming corner.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: shot on August 24, 2019, 09:01:12 AM
Socialist or capitalism or population growth in developing countries


Lastly, while discussion recently has focused politically on Brazil which has the largest forest, 60% of the Amazon is in Brazil. The second largest portion of deforestation takes place in socialist Bolivia and other countries.
This shows deforestation other than Brazil (site has much more data):
https://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/rainforests/photos/amazon_annual_deforestation_no_brazil.jpg
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: johnb51 on August 24, 2019, 09:01:20 AM
I've read that 20% of earth's oxygen comes from the Amazon rainforest, and 20% of the Amazon has been lost already.  If another 20% is lost, it will basically stop functioning and degrade into a desert.  I don't if you call that "sensationalism" or not, but it sounds very grim and should probably be taken seriously.  Also, when these lands are used for agriculture, they're only good for about 15 years before the soil is depleted.  I don't know.  Is that sensationalism and environmental propaganda?  Bolsonaro has blamed environmental NGO's for starting the fires.  Does this even make sense?
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Pokeweed on August 24, 2019, 09:02:24 AM
Exploiting nature is a fundamental way of living for everyone, whether you are a Capitalist, Communist, Socialist or any other kind of -ist. The question is what is the effects on the area you are employing for your survival. The Amazon basin is pretty darn important for our planetary system as a whole. It makes a bunch of the oxygen we breathe, and a lot of CO2 that our trees need to feed us. I don't think anyone is shaming the Brazilians or the Bolivians. And when you try to shame the EU or USA think about how much aid we send annually to those areas.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: frukt on August 24, 2019, 09:18:09 AM
Exploiting nature is a fundamental way of living for everyone, whether you are a Capitalist, Communist, Socialist or any other kind of -ist. The question is what is the effects on the area you are employing for your survival. The Amazon basin is pretty darn important for our planetary system as a whole. It makes a bunch of the oxygen we breathe, and a lot of CO2 that our trees need to feed us. I don't think anyone is shaming the Brazilians or the Bolivians. And when you try to shame the EU or USA think about how much aid we send annually to those areas.

Yes we are paying some tp protect the amazon. And its also true that socialist countries exploit. And I think we have the right to. But I think we exploit to much. We import soya to feed our animals so we can have an unnaturally high meat consumtion. And milk and too. Whats wrong with european grass? Maybe there is simply not enough and thats why we import goodies from other countries that then have to deal with the eco-problems. Its called out-sourcing and europe are experts. Thats why I attack europe and Us because this is the countries that show their fingers to others while not cleaning their own front. Im a european myself but I try not take more then i need.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: johnb51 on August 24, 2019, 09:21:21 AM
You would think that collectively the world would want to save this irreplaceable resource, but there is no political will to take any big steps so I guess we change nothing and merrily march along to human extinction.  No one is to blame except human ingenuity that has thoroughly exploited cheap abundant energy for the past 200 years.  Let's enjoy our fruit trees while we can (and I'm not being facetious or sarcastic).  If you wish to face the truth of the situation, I'd recommend:  http://www.catherineingram.com/facingextinction/ (http://www.catherineingram.com/facingextinction/)  But be preapared to experience a seismic shift in your perspective!
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Jungle Yard on August 24, 2019, 10:11:04 AM
This is a crucial topic expanding far beyond "Amazon fires". As man-made climate change progresses, it is accelerated by events like "Amazon fires".
Drastic measures should have been taken place 20 years ago and The Paris Accord would have been great then. Now, in my opinion, it is too little and too late. Not everyone is on board! By the time world governments UNIFORMLY agree that immediate GLOBAL action is required, frequency and severity of disasters connected to climate change will be irreversible.

Also, solutions to effectively combat climate change on all fronts simultaneously will require changes (sacrifices) in everyones lifestyle, in both developed and third world countries.

That is my very general critical view on this problem, are we truly ready?
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: roblack on August 24, 2019, 10:11:36 AM
While there may be less burning of rainforest now than in the past, the stakes are much higher now. It's like a person saying they  "used to smoke 2 packs a day, but now only 1 pack, so that's better." The aging and depleted lungs can't take what the young ones can. So too, the Amazon. 
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: achetadomestica on August 24, 2019, 10:13:50 AM
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: FMfruitforest on August 24, 2019, 10:43:51 AM
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

I agree more trees should be planted, but its bandaid on a bullethole at this point
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2019-04-28/bonn-challenge-plant-a-tree-save-the-climate-isn-t-enough (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2019-04-28/bonn-challenge-plant-a-tree-save-the-climate-isn-t-enough)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: kalan on August 24, 2019, 11:26:16 AM
I agree with some of the posts here: pointing out that a country is socialist or capitalist is absolutely unhelpful and takes the conversation in an irrelevant direction. The fact is that humans consume resources, and without some type of government intervention and education, these resources will be depleted beyond sustainable levels. This is, literally the tragedy of the global commons.

That said, everything in the world is NOT simply "Media Hype" because we wither don't want to be inconvenienced by distressing realities. The Rainforests of South America are not only the planets lungs, and a major heat sink, they are a source of untapped potential ethnobotanical cures among other possibilities. Taking the large scale destruction of this biome is the absolute least we can do.

And while true the deforestation rates over the past decade have shown a slow-down, that slow-down is still not a sustainable trajectory. Couple that with the fact that this land clearing has ramped up in the last 12-18 months should not be considered an anomaly. This is human action. Not lightning strikes. What is driving that action? Poverty? Lax government oversight? Poor education? Greed?


Those last four questions need to be considered seriously.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Hil on August 24, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

Working on it  ;D
We're planning to plant forest on 7 hectares of degraded, "matorral" land. That's a bit over 24 acres for your guys across the pond.
5 out of the 7 hectares will be planted with drought- and fire-resistant natives, the rest with the good stuff.  8)
That is, if we get a reforestation grant. Otherwise it will be a long-term project   ::)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: giorgosgr on August 24, 2019, 11:47:33 AM
I read a solution to global warming the other day.
Plant a trillion trees.
Let's get busy.

This is many times a dangerous solution for example in my country, Greece all nearly all replantings in burned areas are of pine trees creating a big problem for biodiversity and only few animals can thrive with the absence of all the other trees that were common in the area. Another example that i can remember is that https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/06/gold-pakistan-plants-hundreds-millions-trees-180626095806407.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2018/06/gold-pakistan-plants-hundreds-millions-trees-180626095806407.html)
So imagine having a forest in pakistan that has a big variety of trees and fruit trees that can sustain many animals and then have only eucalyptus.... Unless the main animal in pakistan is koala this is a big problem that nearly no one considers. The only thing that happens for reforestation is "plant something that grows quickly"  even if its not local
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Orkine on August 24, 2019, 01:42:41 PM
Skippint the politics.

Fire is good for forests and occurs naturally.

Why is this particular fire bad?

Is it occuring sooner than it should, more intense than it should, larger than it should, what is the problem with this fire?
I was hoping someone will have a fact base discussion about the fire itself.  Is this a good or a bad fire? Why is it bad?
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: giorgosgr on August 24, 2019, 02:01:22 PM
The problem is that its not natural (its manmade) and there is no intention to let any of the burned area reganerate normally. Most of those areas will be used as farmlands or for mining. If that area would be let to replant itself and in 20 years grow full size then the problem wouldnt be that big
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: frukt on August 24, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
I agree with some of the posts here: pointing out that a country is socialist or capitalist is absolutely unhelpful and takes the conversation in an irrelevant direction. The fact is that humans consume resources, and without some type of government intervention and education, these resources will be depleted beyond sustainable levels. This is, literally the tragedy of the global commons.

That said, everything in the world is NOT simply "Media Hype" because we wither don't want to be inconvenienced by distressing realities. The Rainforests of South America are not only the planets lungs, and a major heat sink, they are a source of untapped potential ethnobotanical cures among other possibilities. Taking the large scale destruction of this biome is the absolute least we can do.

And while true the deforestation rates over the past decade have shown a slow-down, that slow-down is still not a sustainable trajectory. Couple that with the fact that this land clearing has ramped up in the last 12-18 months should not be considered an anomaly. This is human action. Not lightning strikes. What is driving that action? Poverty? Lax government oversight? Poor education? Greed?


Those last four questions need to be considered seriously.

I think that its totally necesary to talk about the root of the problem. Why are people destroying the planet that is suppose to provide them? If you let capital decide then there is only one value.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pvaldes on August 24, 2019, 03:08:06 PM
Fire is a natural and necessary part of land management 

Hem,... not.

Fires created by man after chopping trees in a rainforest are definitely criminal, not natural, Rainforest is a biocenose in a relatively fire proof state because... well... it rains each day. Old forests tend to make its own rain,

As management,, changing tons of mangoes, durians and figs, by, duh... cinder and soy, is outrageously stupid.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 24, 2019, 03:22:17 PM
The Amazon rainforest grows on the poorest soil in the world.Basically there is just a desert and the forest took thousands of years to establish.
After burning the forest for agriculture ,that land will only be good for 10-20 years and after that it will become an  unusable desert.
The bad soil there is the reason those tribes never evolved to have giant cityes and civilisations long term and at least the tribal people used to make terra preta to improove the soil not just burning it to be turned into a desert in 15 years .
Expect stronger hurricanes in USA due to global warming,drought ,etc.
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 24, 2019, 03:55:07 PM
I've done some more fact checking. The reported number of fires has been around 74,000. However, the system in Brazil is not able to discriminate between pasture burning and forest fires. Pasture burning is very common and August is the traditional time. So, no one knows exactly how much of the reported number of fires are due to deforestation activities or burning of grassland pastures. In fact, pay close attention to aerial and ground video of the fires and you will see pasture and scrub vegetation being burnt as well as previously cleared land.


The root of this appears to be related to a reported statement by President Bolsonaro in which he allegedly said some groups have been burning to embarrass him. I found that several weeks ago such a group of farmers did indeed plan a "dia do fogo" (day of fire).
here is the inception of the fires as discussed on August 5th:
 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 24, 2019, 04:05:20 PM
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations

(https://i.postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj/forest.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Oolie on August 24, 2019, 04:39:04 PM
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations

(https://i.postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj/forest.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj)

Veering off topic a bit. I'm pretty sure that rainforests are not renewable in that they are a closed ecosystem, one which consists of many layers, which exist due to a lack of wind. At least that is my understanding. So as renewable as timber farming is in Arkansas, I'm not sure it's relevant to the destruction of a closed ecosystem.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 24, 2019, 05:28:52 PM
And there is another aspect when calling socialist vs capitalists.The socialists did manny mistakes ,but they have the power to revert them back as you see in China right now,whereas the capitalists take the monney,destroy the land and they cant do nothing to restore it after because there is no profit in doing so.
Actually, since forests produce wood which is a renewable resource they are quite profitable and are increasing in the USA, which did significantly deforest and is a capitalist country. My family has operated a sustainable timber farm in Arkansas for over 100 years and 4 generations

(https://i.postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj/forest.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtKmxnKj)
My family has a forest with trees older than the discovery of the Americas.And altough its a protected forest we can take somme trees from the forest and sell them but none did such thing.
We consider that forest property just like a honorary title or like owning somme land on the Moon.Its ours on paper but we dont consider we have the right to cut it .
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Luisport on August 24, 2019, 06:27:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=hb3b-A6QAc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=hb3b-A6QAc8)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: shot on August 24, 2019, 07:33:45 PM
https://earthsky.org/earth/how-much-do-oceans-add-to-worlds-oxygen

Everything is renewable . plate tectonics

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Phytoplankton
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: BonsaiBeast on August 24, 2019, 07:43:01 PM
The Amazon rainforest grows on the poorest soil in the world.Basically there is just a desert and the forest took thousands of years to establish.
After burning the forest for agriculture ,that land will only be good for 10-20 years and after that it will become an  unusable desert.
The bad soil there is the reason those tribes never evolved to have giant cityes and civilisations long term and at least the tribal people used to make terra preta to improove the soil not just burning it to be turned into a desert in 15 years .

Wouldn't millions of years of forest improve the soil?

What does the soil have to do with the development of civilization?
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: shot on August 24, 2019, 07:50:21 PM
Terra preta is the result civilization.Florida soils are as bad as Amazons
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 24, 2019, 08:00:35 PM
Civilisation didnt evolved on the Amazon because of the bad soil the rainforest grows.Bad soil means no agriculture and no agriculture means no cityes.
But somme ancient amazonian people used slash and char techniques as oposed to slash and burn and the charcoal made the soil suitable for agriculture.
The big fires from now are slash and burn wich renders the soil unusable for agriculture in just 10-20 years.
Its all explained here https://youtu.be/0Os-ujelkgw
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 24, 2019, 08:05:41 PM
https://earthsky.org/earth/how-much-do-oceans-add-to-worlds-oxygen

Everything is renewable . plate tectonics
Thats not a trusty source if it calls the phytoplancton ,plants ! They are not plants but protists ,like bacteria but just they are photosynthetic.Better call them algae not plants.
Algae are not plants.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: shot on August 24, 2019, 08:33:38 PM
https://theconversation.com/how-aboriginal-burning-changed-australias-climate-4454 (https://theconversation.com/how-aboriginal-burning-changed-australias-climate-4454)

How Aboriginal burning changed Australia’s climate

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/activity/save-the-plankton-breathe-freely/ (https://www.nationalgeographic.org/activity/save-the-plankton-breathe-freely/)

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Phytoplankton (https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Phytoplankton)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: ajeshcool47 on August 24, 2019, 09:58:29 PM
shot ,Everything is renewable , but it may take centuries to renew certain things ....
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 25, 2019, 04:32:07 AM
A map with the fires.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnwxXzQB/108465249-brazil-active-fires-map-976-nc.png)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: frukt on August 25, 2019, 06:53:41 AM
I've done some more fact checking. The reported number of fires has been around 74,000. However, the system in Brazil is not able to discriminate between pasture burning and forest fires. Pasture burning is very common and August is the traditional time. So, no one knows exactly how much of the reported number of fires are due to deforestation activities or burning of grassland pastures. In fact, pay close attention to aerial and ground video of the fires and you will see pasture and scrub vegetation being burnt as well as previously cleared land.


The root of this appears to be related to a reported statement by President Bolsonaro in which he allegedly said some groups have been burning to embarrass him. I found that several weeks ago such a group of farmers did indeed plan a "dia do fogo" (day of fire).
here is the inception of the fires as discussed on August 5th:
 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.folhadoprogresso.com.br/dia-do-fogo-produtores-planejam-data-para-queimada-na-regiao/&prev=search)
I find it a bit strange. One day this news is on facebook saying media is not covering this story. The next day its all over normal news. Blaming and shaming Bolsonaro. And Im no fan. Of Trump neither but I find it a bit strange that media can make fun of legal presidents like that. And it whouldnt chock me if it was true that there is a conspiracy against Bolsonaro. So easy to do. And thats how politics works this days.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 25, 2019, 07:16:32 AM
Decades ago Brazilian soils were thought to be too poor to support crops. Mainly this was due to natural acidity and crops which were poorly adapted like corn. Eventually it was found that liming overcomes the acidity and tropically adapted soybean varieties yield two crops /year. After a while this builds up fertility and a rotation with corn, etc is possible. Some farms on these soils have been productive for decades. No question they don't have the ecosystem functions of forest but how many of us would have the things we expect and need if some forests in our countries hadn't been cleared? How much of what we have has come from farming, mining or other extractive land use?

Many of us in developed countries might want to see other countries preserve their resources and not touch their forest lands.
That viewpoint is actually a luxury in part because our own countries previously did exactly the same thing.

For perspective consider also that in the US wildfires consumed 4.8 million acres in 2018 and 3.2 million acres in 58,000 fires this year. Amazon land clearing deforested 2 million acres last year. Yes, we consider that accidental but some were arson campfires or escaped "controlled burns" too.

I think the best we can do is to encourage wise use and a combination of preservation and restoration. Here is a great example in 1200 acres of land which had been clear cut and severely degraded. In 30 years the cosystem has been wisely restored to a point where it is both productive and regenerated, the soil continues to improve, springs which were dry have come back, and he plants trees which could not grow before. Ernst Gotsch has restored, preserved, and shown to others that land in Brazil can be useful as forest along with human occupation. Ironically, nowdays his most used tools are the machete and chainsaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST9NyHf09M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST9NyHf09M)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: shot on August 25, 2019, 09:22:52 AM
Make some economic incentives for replanting planting biodiversity in continuous tracts of land.I would hate to see so much lost.Labor is inexpensive,and you, employ indigenous people they know the value of forests.
 IF we see no value of the forests what's next no value to human life.soylent?
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: Honest Abe on August 26, 2019, 12:01:37 AM
Life will find a way, it always finds a way. Climate change is real, just as real as the earth was covered in ice, TWICE. We collaboratively destroyed a Large  percentage of coral reefs, yet some of us choose to propagate those same extinct corals at home, all Over the world. We destroy forests yet some of us propagate many of those burned trees that make the atmosphere suitable for human-kind and feed generations to come. Thats the beauty to Me. It’s an incredible balance of life sustaining more life. I’m
Just saying we are not hopeless, not yet.

Thanks to all of you here on the forumthat continue to spread seeds of life that feed the balance all Over this beautiful world.
-just my opinion
-a lifetime charter-boat fisherman here in Miami Beach
P.S. I love mangoes.
-Capt. Abe
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: azorean on August 26, 2019, 09:36:11 AM
What we are witnessing is a political instrumentalization of science. Furthermore, the issue needs to be put into perspective so as to consider the politics of deforestation control in Brazil.

•   Following a great hike in deforestation, the Federal government (1st Lula’s term), in 2004,  launched the Programme for the Prevention and Control of Deforestation in the Amazon (PPCDAm),  grouping together different national ministries to thereby better promote coordinated action. This programme’s axes of action were 1) land regularisation, 2) monitoring and policing of illegal deforestation, and 3) promotion of alternative sustainable activities. The programme was a success especially due to its integrated approach and has shown results, the reduction in the deforestation rate that Lula so proudly presented in international events and negotiations.

•   In recent years there has been a slight increase in deforestation rate, but not yet to the levels of 2004. However what is most important is the dismantling of deforestation control policy (and environmental policy more generally) since Bolsonaro came to power, his denial of facts and science, and his rhetoric and discourses against indigenous peoples, environmental NGOs and in favour of a “development” at all costs in he Amazon. A “fire day” (!!!) organised by farmers this month was incentivised by Bolsonaro’s discourses and authorities did nothing to prevent it. Fires have always occurred but never incentivised by the President! And the scale of destruction this year can also be directly linked to the dismantling of Amazon deforestation control by the federal government.

•   On measuring deforestation, two main systems of satellite monitoring are used. The PRODES has been used since 1988 to identify the broad areas of deforestation, and enables calculation of annual rates of deforestation. It remains the main system informing governmental strategies. The other system is DETER, which was created in 2004; it is a real-time system, inputting data every day thus allowing for swift control and punitive actions. It is hence now possible to know in real-time ‘where’ deforestation is occurring and, with the advent of the geo-referenced rural registry (the CAR), ‘who’ has deforested, thus enabling rapid surveillance and enforcement actions. The integration of actions in crime investigation by sharing information with different entities, the use of intelligence, the coordination between the army, federal police and Ibama has helped law enforcement, notably through ‘ostensive’ operations aimed at psychologically deterring deforestation. During Lula’s and Rousseff terms especially.

•   All this monitoring and enforcement mechanism is now at stake with lack of funding (now with Norway and Germany pulling out) and Bolsonaro’s antipathy towards environmental protection; and his denial of satellite-measured data.

•   While agribusiness has been in favour of less restrictions on production in the Amazon and always complained and tried to dismantle these in the national congress where its lobby controls a great portion of the parliamentarians, even them seem now unpleased with Bolsonaro as this situation is affecting Brazil’s international image and hence their ability to export commodities. You start hearing many high profile agribusiness-related parliamentarians criticising  the government.

This would be a great topic to discuss over a coffee, I will stop here. 
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: phantomcrab on August 26, 2019, 01:56:57 PM
Scientists' view - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 26, 2019, 04:08:38 PM
Scientists' view - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say)
Your link says:
Quote
Recent data have clearly shown that deforestation in Brazil is on the rise. From January through the end of July, 6800 square kilometers were cleared, according to INPE, 50% more than in the same period last year.

6800 sq. km = 680,000 hectares= 1,680,317 acres
While on Friday it is reported that 800,000 hectares(2 million acres) just burned next door in Bolivia.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 26, 2019, 06:35:39 PM
Scientists' view - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/theres-no-doubt-brazils-fires-are-caused-deforestation-scientists-say)
Your link says:
Quote
Recent data have clearly shown that deforestation in Brazil is on the rise. From January through the end of July, 6800 square kilometers were cleared, according to INPE, 50% more than in the same period last year.

6800 sq. km = 680,000 hectares= 1,680,317 acres
While on Friday it is reported that 800,000 hectares(2 million acres) just burned next door in Bolivia.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.paginasiete.bo/sociedad/2019/8/23/incendios-se-extienden-cerca-de-800-mil-ha-en-la-chiquitania-228448.html&prev=search)
Bolsonaro is to blame for all the fires in the Amazon,even for those in Bolivia.
Thats because he changed the Enviroment minister with a demented one wich said ,,agriculture is threatened in Brazil,,.
Obviously Bolsonaro took advices from Trump by chosing such minister ,just like Trump did in USA.
The fires from Brazil caused a new ,,gold rush,, in neighbouring countryes like Bolivia where the president there altough leftist,he follows the same path as Bolsonaro.
The forest that burned in Bolivia its not a rainforest but a dry tropical forest and that burned faster than the rainforest but i still think your calculations in hectares are wrong and the fires in Brasil are probably 4-5 times bigger.
This is not right wing vs leftist president,its about mafia that tricks dumb masses of people to suport them so that they meet their goal.
And ,i say it,Trump has a share of the fault because he made this easyer,he encouraged all these flatearthers to ignore the international laws and the common sence agreements.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: pineislander on August 26, 2019, 10:04:40 PM
i still think your calculations in hectares are wrong and the fires in Brasil are probably 4-5 times bigger.
My calculations are accurate, and based on the figures quoted in the newspaper, there is a big difference in the case of Bolvia.

I'm not the only one asking why Bolivia is getting a "pass". It turns out that the socialist-dictator-to-be Evo Morales signed a decree legalizing the burning of land in Beni and Santa Clara and others in Latin America are calling him out.

Quote
Evo Morales legalized agrarian burning
A month before the fires, on July 9, Bolivian President Evo Morales approved the modification of the “Supreme Decree (DS) 26075” through the promulgation of DS 3973, which allows burning of permanent forest production lands.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://es.panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2019/08/25/incendio-bolsonaro-evo/&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://es.panampost.com/mamela-fiallo/2019/08/25/incendio-bolsonaro-evo/&prev=search)

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.change.org/p/juicio-de-responsabilidades-por-el-incendio-forestal-en-la-chiquitan%25C3%25ADa-para-el-presidente-evo-morales-ayma-y-abrogaci%25C3%25B3n-de-la-ley-741-pdm-20-decreto-supremo-de-desmonte-ds3973&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.change.org/p/juicio-de-responsabilidades-por-el-incendio-forestal-en-la-chiquitan%25C3%25ADa-para-el-presidente-evo-morales-ayma-y-abrogaci%25C3%25B3n-de-la-ley-741-pdm-20-decreto-supremo-de-desmonte-ds3973&prev=search)

They all obediently stand and applaud as Morales signs the order:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbNyO68UifM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbNyO68UifM)
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: SeaWalnut on August 26, 2019, 10:56:06 PM
Because ,,if Brazil can burn the jungle ,we can burn it also,,.
Bolsonaro its the moral perpetrator here and Brazil its much bigger than Bolivia so its logical to think they have burned more than Bolivia if you look at the map with the fires.
Also Bolivia has no sea,they have to live somehow but Brazil is a wealthy country ,didnt needed to do this.Has a lot of savana allready.
Title: Re: Fire in the Amazon...
Post by: arvind on August 27, 2019, 12:03:36 AM
Civilisation didnt evolved on the Amazon because of the bad soil the rainforest grows.Bad soil means no agriculture and no agriculture means no cityes.
But somme ancient amazonian people used slash and char techniques as oposed to slash and burn and the charcoal made the soil suitable for agriculture.
The big fires from now are slash and burn wich renders the soil unusable for agriculture in just 10-20 years.
Its all explained here https://youtu.be/0Os-ujelkgw
You are right about the soil factor.Thats why complex civilization never sprang up there.Another reason could be due to the fact that the Americas was pretty much isolated from the rest of the world during ancient times.In south East Asia especially in areas which is  Indonesia and Malaysia in the present day  maritime civilization rose about 1000 years in the past thanks to the Indians and Chinese and also arabs