Author Topic: Jubaeopsis caffra  (Read 3260 times)

stuartdaly88

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Jubaeopsis caffra
« on: March 13, 2015, 03:39:28 AM »
Anyone ever grow this edible palm?
Fruits are meant to be tastey 2-4cm and its pretty cold hardy.

I was recently offered seeds and I snapped them up but then I read this online:


"Growing Jubaeopsis caffra

In view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them."

Iv already ordered the seeds surely it would be a waste not to plant them but what is the likelihood of me getting in deep shyte over having them? What is my legal responsibility?
I know my source is conscientious and doesn't decimate wild populations so Im more concerned with if I could get into trouble at all.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

starling1

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 04:13:57 AM »
Anyone ever grow this edible palm?
Fruits are meant to be tastey 2-4cm and its pretty cold hardy.

I was recently offered seeds and I snapped them up but then I read this online:


"Growing Jubaeopsis caffra

In view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them."

Iv already ordered the seeds surely it would be a waste not to plant them but what is the likelihood of me getting in deep shyte over having them? What is my legal responsibility?
I know my source is conscientious and doesn't decimate wild populations so Im more concerned with if I could get into trouble at all.


Your Dilemma is axiomatic, Stuart.

How precisely does a species become threatened by horticultural demand when the objective of horticulture itself is, by definition, the process of increasing the bio-availability and numbers of the species in question?

Now, I'm sure what you mean to say is that the process of acquiring seeds is depleting the natural presence of said species in its natural habitat due to exploitation of seedstock.

This is probably true. However, I am sure that other environmental pressures exist that will deliver this rarity to its end one way or another.When it comes to the smorgasbord of anthropogenic annihilation, it makes no difference which color you pick.

And what is to stop anybody from raising the plant in a synthetic environment with the aim of reintroducing it to its native habitat anyway? We do this with animals all of the time.

The Australian Bilby would in fact be gone from this Earth had not exactly this measure been taken to prevent its extinction.

How else do you imagine, then, if there is as you say, no legal source for seed, will this species endure if people do not simply take the initiative and propagate it? The market for seed will not dry up in an instant; tell me, has the criminalization of poaching ended poaching? It is happening, it is going to keep happening, and it is going to happen until such a time that the plant is no longer deemed rare and the law of supply and demand has run its course, by which time, the plant will be in wider circulation and stands in far better stead of sending its genes into the future--which is the ultimate objective of all living things.

In other words, don't over-think it.

Pedants will tell you you're doing the wrong thing. But the smarter answer is that you're helping stave off extinction-perhaps even, for centuries.

*addendum: did you know they were illegal when you bought them? And if so, for christ's sake man--don't admit to it.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 04:23:51 AM by starling1 »

stuartdaly88

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 04:28:56 AM »
Anyone ever grow this edible palm?
Fruits are meant to be tastey 2-4cm and its pretty cold hardy.

I was recently offered seeds and I snapped them up but then I read this online:


"Growing Jubaeopsis caffra

In view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them."

Iv already ordered the seeds surely it would be a waste not to plant them but what is the likelihood of me getting in deep shyte over having them? What is my legal responsibility?
I know my source is conscientious and doesn't decimate wild populations so Im more concerned with if I could get into trouble at all.


Your Dilemma is axiomatic, Stuart.

How precisely does a species become threatened by horticultural demand when the objective of horticulture itself is, by definition, the process of increasing the bio-availability and numbers of the species in question?

Now, I'm sure what you mean to say is that the process of acquiring seeds is depleting the natural presence of said species in its natural habitat due to exploitation of seedstock.

This is probably true. However, I am sure that other environmental pressures exist that will deliver this rarity to its end one way or another.When it comes to the smorgasbord of anthropogenic annihilation, it makes no difference which color you pick.

How else do you imagine, then, if there is as you say, no legal source for seed, will this species endure if people do not simply take the initiative and propagate it? The market for seed will not dry up in an instant. It is happening, it is going to keep happening, and it is going to happen until such a time that the plant is no longer deemed rare and the law of supply and demand has run its course, by which time, the plant will be in wider circulation and stands in far better stead of sending its genes into the future--which is the ultimate objective of all living things.

In other words, don't over-think it.

Thanks Starling
It may not have been clear this ["n view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them"]
was a quote from a website produced by the South African horticultural institute http://www.plantzafrica.com/planthij/jubcaffra.htm

I completely agree with you and the logic is sound. It is often collectors who keep species from going extinct entirely.
My dilemma was purely from the stand point of me incurring a fine or having some sort of legal action instituted against me. Our laws are rather severe when it comes to some indigenous plants. You need some sort of licence to grow certain rare cycads. I know what the spirit of the law is trying to achieve (ie not digging up wild plants for sale) but it can go against the conscientious collector. This is compounded by the fact that our government departments are useless and applying for any kind of biological permits or the like is an effort in futility and if you even get a reply back to emails or lettersyou can consider yourself lucky

Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

starling1

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 04:49:23 AM »
Anyone ever grow this edible palm?
Fruits are meant to be tastey 2-4cm and its pretty cold hardy.

I was recently offered seeds and I snapped them up but then I read this online:


"Growing Jubaeopsis caffra

In view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them."

Iv already ordered the seeds surely it would be a waste not to plant them but what is the likelihood of me getting in deep shyte over having them? What is my legal responsibility?
I know my source is conscientious and doesn't decimate wild populations so Im more concerned with if I could get into trouble at all.


Your Dilemma is axiomatic, Stuart.

How precisely does a species become threatened by horticultural demand when the objective of horticulture itself is, by definition, the process of increasing the bio-availability and numbers of the species in question?

Now, I'm sure what you mean to say is that the process of acquiring seeds is depleting the natural presence of said species in its natural habitat due to exploitation of seedstock.

This is probably true. However, I am sure that other environmental pressures exist that will deliver this rarity to its end one way or another.When it comes to the smorgasbord of anthropogenic annihilation, it makes no difference which color you pick.

How else do you imagine, then, if there is as you say, no legal source for seed, will this species endure if people do not simply take the initiative and propagate it? The market for seed will not dry up in an instant. It is happening, it is going to keep happening, and it is going to happen until such a time that the plant is no longer deemed rare and the law of supply and demand has run its course, by which time, the plant will be in wider circulation and stands in far better stead of sending its genes into the future--which is the ultimate objective of all living things.

In other words, don't over-think it.

Thanks Starling
It may not have been clear this ["n view of the limited natural population, which is already threatened by over-exploitation for horticulture, the single most important piece of advice for would-be growers of this palm is DON'T! The tree is protected and there is no legal source of seed. Seedlings are almost certainly raised illegally too, and one should not buy them without written guarantees of permission to possess them"]
was a quote from a website produced by the South African horticultural institute http://www.plantzafrica.com/planthij/jubcaffra.htm

I completely agree with you and the logic is sound. It is often collectors who keep species from going extinct entirely.
My dilemma was purely from the stand point of me incurring a fine or having some sort of legal action instituted against me. Our laws are rather severe when it comes to some indigenous plants. You need some sort of licence to grow certain rare cycads. I know what the spirit of the law is trying to achieve (ie not digging up wild plants for sale) but it can go against the conscientious collector. This is compounded by the fact that our government departments are useless and applying for any kind of biological permits or the like is an effort in futility and if you even get a reply back to emails or lettersyou can consider yourself lucky

I see. Well, here's my two cents:

It would be difficult to imagine a more strict quarantine system than what is currently in operation in Australia. Actually not it isn't, I can envision that easily; you can't import anything at all for any reason ever.

We're not far from that right now over here, TBH.

My experience with bureaucracies is that they are generally underfunded, understaffed, poorly run, and don't work properly. Most government departments are like this (excluding taxation departments which are well oiled machines organized along the lines of the Mafia and should not be fucked with for any reason ever). I have no doubt that this inference would ring true in your own country--in fact, and no offense intended--I expect it's much, much worse. Even if they wanted to, most departments simply do not have the resources to rigidly uphold the standards of the iron fist of legislature, and even if they did, your local magistrate has better things to do than throw the book at a hobbyist plant grower who accidentally imported/purchased some seed for a private collection. That is not, almost certainly, going to happen. Is it illegal merely to possess the plants? How, excuse me, is said department ever going to know you even have them? They're not going to be bugging your martini.The worst that can happen is that they will get seized on the way to you and will get destroyed. A fine is incredibly unlikely especially without having received a prior infringement warning.

Accidents happen.

How could the average punter reasonably be expected to know what seeds can be bought and what cannot be? The list of sp's and guidelines number in the thousands and evolve constantly. The expectation that the layman could keep abreast of them would be an absurdity. And Surely the purveyor is at fault? In fact, you might even say you are a victim.

People tend to shit themselves when they go online and read about 'maximum' penalties for quarantine infringements, but well....the world doesn't really work that way, and neither does the system.

For example, I once inadvertently imported some plant material which turned out to be a no-no.

I received a letter which stated that (paraphrasing) 'You're such and such did not meet quarantine standard and was destroyed, etc'.

Well, that's ambiguous. I take that to mean that the particular item itself did not meet quarantine standards, not that all plant material does not meet quarantine standards. That is my logical interpretation of that commonsense language. The latter might be true, I haven't checked--well, I have tried to, but the government website which supposedly outlines importation requirements and what constitutes an infringement is terribly designed, and is far too convoluted for somebody as computer illiterate as myself to successfully negotiate. In fact the search feature doesn't even work properly.

I am just a guy who accidentally bought something on ebay I shouldn't have, and there are thousands of people like me made every day.

So I go on importing and believing that when something is seized, there must have been something wrong with that particular object. And until I receive literature that clearly tells me otherwise, I'll go on believing it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 05:10:18 AM by starling1 »

stuartdaly88

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 05:25:43 AM »
Well that makes me feel much better about it:)
My source is from natural wild populations but ethically harvested and honestly it has more chance of becoming a mature plant in cultivation anyway.
These are South African indigenous endemic plants and I wish the government departments themselves would be a source for legal specimens rather than banning private cultivation.
We have a big problem with indigent/previously disadvantaged(to use the PC term) peoples digging up wild plants and selling them on street corners so thats where the strict laws must have come into being.
Species becoming endangered because of this practice is a major problem but they should make ethically sourced material cheap and legally available to disincentivise this.
I worry about "Ignorantia juris non excusat" as my father often admonished me when I was younger but what you said put things into perspective!
With the crime rate in my country and the severely overcrowded courts I doubt my transgression would be a priority and the likelihood of a palm expert walking by my property and peering over the wall is probably slim to none:P
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

starling1

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 06:04:36 AM »
Ignorantia juris non excusat

In situations in which the material reality of circumstances cannot be  known absolutely, the question of what is known or unknown is largely irrelevant. The question instead is what,  in the dimensions of epistemology, can be constructed as plausible and non-falsifiable actualities which might be accepted as truth in that they function to reasonably and acceptably explain events in the absence of primary evidence.

And it's sentences like that which are sure to condemn me to Hell.

Plant the seeds, you're doing a good thing.

s

« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 06:07:25 AM by starling1 »

stuartdaly88

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2015, 06:09:53 AM »
Im gonna plant them worry free!
If by some weird  twist of fate I ever did get into hot water over this I hope you will still be on the forum and will to offer some legal advice:)

Thanks again I was abit worried over this!
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

HIfarm

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2015, 12:10:49 PM »
Aside from any legal issues, I suspect you have looked at growing issues.  Some pertinent quotes:
"It languishes if not provided with regular and adequate moisture."
"...not so good in tropical or nearly tropical regions, where the nighttime temperatures in the summer are high"

I don't recall where in South Africa you are but I know some areas are not routinely blessed with a lot or water (you may need to supplement).  I suspect the nighttime temps would not be an issue in many areas in SA.  Sounds like a beautiful palm otherwise.

John

stuartdaly88

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2015, 07:00:52 PM »
Aside from any legal issues, I suspect you have looked at growing issues.  Some pertinent quotes:
"It languishes if not provided with regular and adequate moisture."
"...not so good in tropical or nearly tropical regions, where the nighttime temperatures in the summer are high"

I don't recall where in South Africa you are but I know some areas are not routinely blessed with a lot or water (you may need to supplement).  I suspect the nighttime temps would not be an issue in many areas in SA.  Sounds like a beautiful palm otherwise.

John
I really wish I had the problem of high night time temps! Imminent northern jhb classified as a subtropical highland climate. Thunderstorms almost every afternoon in summer we are one of the lightning capitals of the world! Water would only be a problem in winter as we get Nada rain when it's cold.
I am keen to grow this one it does look really beautiful and apparently similar to coconut in taste.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

HIfarm

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2015, 09:39:14 PM »
Now, now Stuart, you probably don't really want to the problem of high nighttime temps -- because you'd probably also have to worry about malaria.  Are you right near Jo'burg?

Let us know how these turn out for you.  I think I heard these a slow growing so we won't expect a taste report too soon ...

John

stuartdaly88

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Re: Jubaeopsis caffra
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 06:00:05 AM »
Now, now Stuart, you probably don't really want to the problem of high nighttime temps -- because you'd probably also have to worry about malaria.  Are you right near Jo'burg?

Let us know how these turn out for you.  I think I heard these a slow growing so we won't expect a taste report too soon ...

John
Ok when you put it like that high.night temps may.not be all they are cracked up to be! On the bush war my dad got malaria not nice!  Though his bulharzia ended being.alot worse!
I'm far northern jhb halfway to Pretoria :)
Ha ha yeah I will probably be tasting it with my yet unborn children one day if all goes well!
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau