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Messages - Draak

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I would love to aid you in your quest! Do you know where I could get seeds or seedlings?

This year I get to try alot of variety both grafted and from my friends: Hulu, Chico, GA-866, Sugar Cane, Li, baby red, mushroom etc. My Sandia and Maya graft hasn't produce anything so TBD.

My favorite is Li. Sweet, thin skin, prolific. My friends who tried everything I gave them agreed Li is their favorite. I'll add Black Sea next year.

I dug up a Li jujube that's really good. Same one I already have that I'm considering leaving as is or keep 80% not grafted.

This is my experience as well. I have Li, GA866, contorted, and a rootstock seedling sucker that fruited. In my area,the three names varieties taste mostly the same, except for the amount of flavor they have. Li has the most flavor and is everyoneís favorite. GA866 has less flavor, and contorted has the least flavor. The rootstock tastes VERY different; itís sour, bitter, and awful.

GA866 is decent, contorted tastes the same but

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Bitter black currants
« on: August 26, 2023, 09:19:41 PM »
I went to the Asian store recently and got a small tub of dried black currants. They were excellent! It was sweet, and similar to eating raisins. I tried some fresh black currants from a local nursery, and they were awful! It was like bitter black pepper. There was nothing sweet about the fresh currant experience. I tried my own fresh black currants, and they tasted the same. I tried waiting for them to get extra ripe (starting to slightly shrivel) and they still tasted like bitter black pepper.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I think your issue comes frome a case of mistaken identity. The grape variety Zante Currant (sold fresh as Champaign Grape in the US) is one of the more popular rasin varieties. However US consumers prefered the larger rasins made from Sultana (Thompson Seedless) and its spinoffs. Many people still refer to raisins made from Zante Currant simply as "currants." It is possible that someone started calling theses raisins "black currants" because of the dark color. So, your "black currants" would actually have been a true raisin. Hope that helps.

This absolutely does help! Thank you! I suppose what I ate is questionable as to whether it was a grape or a currant.

However, weird explorer found that black currants pretty much tasted like grapes, blueberries, and generally berries. He said they were mostly sweet, and maybe very slightly tart. He uses a LOT of descriptors in all of his videos, but none of those descriptors in this video were ďbitterĒ or ďpepperyĒ. What he ate definitely looked more like black currant and not grapes.

Did weird explorer find something other than black currants? There was definitely NOTHING sweet about my two experiences with black currant.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Lardizabalaceae
« on: August 26, 2023, 09:10:27 PM »
Well the plot thickens as it has recently been discovered that Lardizabala mimics nearby plants just like Boquila. It not only mimics leaves but just yesterday l observed it mimicking the growth form of a support tree as well. It's a rather long story but to give an overview: l have mature vines of Lardizabala growing to the top of a large Quercus suber (cork oak) at my back door.  These vines are almost 40years old & have been fruiting for about 20 years. They  are nearly 50' up to the top of the tree. I have always considered Lardizabala to be a species with quite variable leaves an observation which l put down to genetic variability,  that is until a recent trip to Tasmania where l saw a very different looking Lardizabala with very large roundish leaves with totally entire margins. As this looked so different from mine at home l obtained 2 seedling plants from the source & returned home with them. When l compared the photos of the one in Tasmania to mine l suddenly realized that the leaves were mimicking nearby plants & in fact do this just like Boquila does.

 I contacted Ernesto Gianoli in Chile who discovered the phenomenon in Boquila & sent him many photos & he concurs that Lardizabala is indeed performing the same stunt as Boquila! Further he told me that it is an accepted fact among the local traditional population in the areas where Lardizabala grows that the best flavored & quality fruit is dependent on the tree species it grows on! This may seem hard to swallow but this same species is making both cork oak leaves & Lapageria rosea leaves on the one vine at my place. It even mimics the curl of the oak &  the texture of the Lapageria.

 I like the flavor of 'oak grown' Lapageria, it's  got a nice, if subtle sweetness if you're prepared to swirl & spit to separate the pulp from the seeds! It certainly has more flavor than any Akebia l've eaten & also Stauntonia hexaphylla which is pretty bland too.

I haven't tasted Boquila as l have recently struck cuttings of one clone only, & sown seed which l hope is viable as it's taken many years to obtain here.

I wonder if the sweetness is correlated to leaf size. Perhaps bigger leaves gather more sun, and make sweeter fruits?

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Bitter black currants
« on: August 26, 2023, 04:20:03 AM »
I went to the Asian store recently and got a small tub of dried black currants. They were excellent! It was sweet, and similar to eating raisins. I tried some fresh black currants from a local nursery, and they were awful! It was like bitter black pepper. There was nothing sweet about the fresh currant experience. I tried my own fresh black currants, and they tasted the same. I tried waiting for them to get extra ripe (starting to slightly shrivel) and they still tasted like bitter black pepper.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks for the link! Maybe it's time to try my luck with seeds again. I've tried a few times with no success...but maybe this time!  :)

I missed it when wanderlust was selling these! I would love to buy/trade cuttings with people.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Kwai muk (artocarpus hypargyraeus)
« on: August 05, 2023, 07:56:22 PM »
I had seen a youtube video of someone in Northern California (I think Bay area to be specific) with a fruiting one so they likely can handle frosts to a certain extent.

Joe Hewitt had one that lasted in the ground for at least 6 years in Los Gatos. It grew only a few feet tall in that time. I planted mine in the ground 8 months ago in a protected location, and it died very quickly in the winter. The cold tolerance seems to be variable. They donít seem to love it here.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Rare fruit tourism
« on: July 23, 2023, 12:11:35 AM »
I've barely taken any vacation in the past 3 years, and I'm ready for one! I've never been to Hawaii, and I think it would be fun to go. Where do you go for fun fruits and food in Hawaii?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Rooting hormone for graft success?
« on: June 11, 2023, 04:36:32 AM »
Yeah, I've heard about it before with Lucuma:

"Whip or cleft grafts are used in spring when stems are 4-6mm diameter, and there are some reports of improved 'take' by applying rooting hormone (auxin) to the grafted area to accelerate cambial and callus growth."

I've seen almost every video! It helped inspire me to get into this hobby. It's really great!

I find some of his descriptions to be a bit nebulous sometimes. It really helped a lot when he started describing sweetness & sourness; his descriptions started to make more sense. Something that would help more is if he separated flavor and texture.

I personally find that a lot of other reviewer's videos make more sense to me when the fruit flavor it described, but I still really value this video series :).

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Overhyped avocados
« on: April 08, 2023, 01:22:08 AM »

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cherimoya seeds as insecticide?
« on: March 17, 2023, 09:58:56 PM »
Pawpaw seed extract was patented for the application of insecticide, I believe.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Illegal or Not?? Mango Scions
« on: March 08, 2023, 03:45:19 AM »
This thread has been really helpful!

Aside from patent, there exists a second route of plant IP protection: the plant variety protection act. If a varietal is registered with the USDA plant variety protection office, it is similarly illegal to propagate this material without the consent of the registered owner. Surprisingly few plants are registered; there are no mangos protected in this way.

As for patent protection, pretty much any form of propagation, including any form of grafting or generation of a clone, is illegal without the owners consent or agreed upon licensing fee. Methods of cloning include (but are probably not limited to):

Planting rhizomes (bits of root)
Taking cuttings (twigs)
Planting bulbs
Grafting and budding
Using corms
Planting slips
Using runners
Nucellar embryos
Planting apomictic seeds (seeds that donít go through meiosis)

Therefore, cloning by using a polyembryonic seed is illegal without the consent of the IP holder.

However, if the seedling you generate is not a clone of the parent, then it is not IP protected, and you yourself could patent the new seedling.

I think I have some data to add here!

I inadvertently did a mango rootstock search (this was not my intention). I got 5 seeds each of ~6 varieties of mango. Of those, about 6 germinated. I kept them inside during the first winter. The second winter, I put them all outside in pots, in a mildly protected location. Only 2 survived, and both of them were monoembryonic seedlings of Edgar. I put them both in the ground in the same spot in the spring, thinking I might do some crazy grafting. One died during transplant. The final Edgar mango is so far holding up very well, despite that most mangoes would be dead by now in this area! For those who dont know, We took some HEAVY rains recently, and mangoes around here seem to die of root rot in the winter. Itís a slow grower, but it looks healthy! Maybe Edgar seedlings are good rootstock for this area?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Fruit trees I gave up on
« on: December 30, 2022, 11:17:10 PM »
Bananas! Iíve killed them 3 years in a row. My neighbor had the same experience. Other people somewhat near me seem to make it work, but itís a bit of a money pit for me. Itís time to try something else.

Mangos. I have tried these quite a lot, and no success. I had 30 seedlings, and 29 have died. The one that is holding out may be goodÖbut if it dies, so will all of my mango efforts.

Garcinia of any kind. I kill all of them. They die from too much sun, too much cold, or sometimes for almost no reason at all. Iím finished with garcinia.

Miracle berries. I had 20 seedlings, and 19 are dead. The last one alive is the one that I gave to my friend, and he found out that they only live if you give them expensive filtered water. Sorry berries, youíre not for me! Palm grass or whale grass works well here!

Yellow dragonfruit. I might be able to keep one alive in just the right spot, but wow they are much more sensitive than other dragon fruits.

Kadsura. I actually have 2 of them going, but I think I wonít enjoy the fruit.  :P. Let me know if anyone wants to trade locally!

Lychee. I almost tried these, and my local friend has a tree. I read too much about these being difficult to fruit (both amateur and professionally). I decided to give up before starting. Sticking with Kohala longan!

Bromeliads. Iíve killed too many. Iíve told myself that I can now only grow pineapples from the top of the fruit. I donít lose any money if I kill them. If I can finally fruit one, Iíll try a white pineapple or their bromeliad.

I finally looked up chilling hours, and I was surprised! There is a range of acceptable chilling hours. Also, if you don't have enough chilling hours, you can get a little chemical help to get some fruit set. From wikipedia:

A four-year study of Ruston Red Alabama peach, which has a threshold of 850 chilling units, demonstrated that a seasonal chilling deficiency of less than 50 units has no effect on harvest. Deficiency of 50 to 100 units may result in loss of up to 50% of expected harvest. Deficiency of 250 hours and more is a sure loss of practically whole harvest; the few fruit will be of very poor quality and have no market value.[7] Rest-breaking agents (e.g. hydrogen cyanamide, trade name BudPro or Dormex), applied in spring, can partially mitigate the effects of insufficient chilling. BudPro can substitute for up to 300 hours of chilling, but an excessive spraying and timing error can easily damage the buds.[7] Other products such as Dormex use stabilizing compounds.

OK! I dug out my old notes on this one, and learned a few more things! I really appreciate the discussion on this thread. It's really important for us to know the safety of our hobby :).

Pomper et al. looked at the toxicity of soursop, cherimoya, pawpaw varietals, peach, and banana: They measured toxicity by finding the amount of extract needed to kill 50% of a brine shrimp population. Among many things, they found:
1)   that cherimoya flesh was 100x less toxic than soursop, and is almost as benign as peaches (yay!).
2)   that some pawpaws were 100x more toxic than soursop, and that some pawpaws were about as toxic as soursop.

The amount of annonacin in some pawpaws is truly staggering! But, itís this dramatic figure which likely proves the point that this is rather well tolerated by >99% of the population. A homeowner binge-eating fruit from their pawpaw tree could end up eating ~3lbs of pawpaw in a day (or 3~5 pawpaw fruits). Assuming a typical soursop weighs 6lbs, thatís roughly like eating 50 soursop fruits in a single day! A single tree could yield 30~80 pounds of fruit, so that could amass to eating the equivalent of 500~1300 soursops per tree. Thatís a dose higher than eating a full 6lbs of soursop every day *and* drinking the soursop leaf tea every day for a year, but administered all in 1~2 months! If thatís the case, fruit fanatics and pawpaw lovers in the american midwest should be suffering just as much or more than the people of french west indies due to the Indiana banana!

However, there are definitely a small population of people who ARE very strongly affected by this toxin: people with Progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP). Developing this extremely unfortunate condition is mostly strongly linked to genetics. In caucasians, the insertion/deletion polymorphism in intron 9 of MAPT is associated with this risk. In Guadeloupe, it's likely some other genetic issue ( Caparros-Lefebvre found in 2005 that younger people who were diagnosed with PSP greatly diminished their PSP symptoms when they stopped consuming annona products. I don't have access to the original paper, but you can see it on slide 14 here:

Since the caucasian farmer in the 2020 paper had been diagnosed with PSP, and likely had the H1 genetic factor, he definitely should not have been consuming annona fruits or products. It's unfortunate that this wasn't more well known! He lived to be 80 years old, which is pretty good, but he could have lived longer. What he likely experienced was a huge surge in symptoms every time he consumed pawpaw. Since symptoms were only observed to diminish in younger people with PSP when stopping annona products, he may have felt a permanent increase in the severity of his symptoms whenever he consumed pawpaw. It's unfortunate that he didn't make the connection that his symptoms got worse when he ate the fruit.

I essentially avoid any Annonaceae for my own consumption, there's not enough research in the metabolism of it in the body, whether or not it can accumulate in the tissues. Similar issues were found with unrelated compound BMAA in cycads and that indeed was bioaccumulating in the bats who in turn gradually poisoned the people. This is ignoring the fact that nerve damage does not repair well in general.

A very big concern I have though is with rotenoids found in a fair few fabids, like Tephrosia, Derris, Amorpha and most concerningly Pachyrhisus (jicama) which I see showing up in the markets lately. And a rare couple non fabids like Verbascum (mullein) and Mirabilis. all these definitely have cumulative nerve damaging effects that effectively DO NOT resolve in your lifespan.

This is fascinating!

I went down the rabbit hole on this a few years ago, and posted my findings. You can find most post if you search for it.

If you look at the incidence rate of Parkinsonís in the population that the document studied, the incidence rate of Parkinsonís on the island is not higher than the incidence rate of Parkinsonís in mainland USA. Therefore, the consumption of annona fruits does not cause Parkinsonís.

HOWEVER, if you do have Parkinsonís, it will make it worse! You will develop a ďparkinsonismĒ, which is a more severe and less treatable version of Parkinsonís. The incidence rate of parkinsonisms in that island is much higher than in mainland USA. That said, there is some evidence that if you stop eating annona, you downgrade back to regular Parkinsonís.

As for how it affects other forms of illness, nobody knows! But, all fruits and veggies make their own insecticides to some degree, so we throw those dice anytime we eat anything plant based.

I've talked with two different people who have and grow all of Albert's Feijoa collection. They all talk about how their family really enjoys them! However, they've both said that they nor their family can taste the difference of the varietals.

I've tasted fruits from a large row of seedling Feijoa. Some are nice, some are bitter.

My takeaway is that the difference between good Feijoa varietals is subtle. Perhaps others would disagree with me, but good Feijoa mostly just tastes like good Feijoa :).

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Help filling out a hedge
« on: August 29, 2022, 02:43:04 AM »
Feijoa is rather low water, and generates a very tasty evergreen hedge in a few years.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Introduce the new Variety of longan.
« on: August 29, 2022, 02:39:38 AM »
I am also a bit of a skeptic, but it's exciting if this is real! I know that Zaiger genetics faced similar odds when trying to generate viable hybrids.

When I talked with silber, he was annoyed that others were selling his kei apple. However, he didnít want to sell me one. I donít think the other nurseries are cutting into his profits! He also refuses to ship.

Marta Matvienko here in the Bay Area planted out several of these, and got one sweet female. She offers it on her website, among many other great scions:

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