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Messages - Peep

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Community Tristeza Virus test results
« on: March 27, 2024, 08:25:56 AM »
Myself and some other people have bought ImmunoStrip test kits for the Citrus Tristeza Virus. I thought it would be good to collect test results in a spreadsheet, so people are warned about certain cultivars and nurseries

So far it's mostly plants from Adavo that I have tested, because they are not to be trusted regarding phytosanitary. I will buy another 25 piece kit to complete testing all my other plants, but I could only afford one kit right now.

Keep in mind that even if certain cultivars from a risky nursery like Adavo are tested negative in this list, it's still possible for these cultivars to get infected from the other cultivars in their  collection which are infected.

False positives don't really happen, but false negatives can happen if the virus is very dormant in the plant.



Besides my own results I try to keep this document updated with results from other people. So please also let me know if you have done tests, so I can add the results.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UzPWbRKQn52iX8O8wQeePQnHzr2ws5mWp11RW6nY3eA/edit?usp=sharing

Where to get test kits? -> https://www.agdia-emea.com/en/products-services/plant-pathogen-detection-kits/flashkit-2
You can order from them through email. Price is €166 (without tax) for a 25 piece kit and €28 shipping (EU)

Also a question, does anyone know if I can re-use potting soil mix from infected plants that I remove?
If I remove most of the roots, then the possible remaining small roots will die and as far as I know a virus like this doesn't last long without a host? But it's hard to find information on this.



2
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Trifoliate flower scent?
« on: March 17, 2024, 04:28:10 PM »
I've seen this either when they are trying to sell something to people who don't know better, or in trendy articles written by people who don't care and just write pretty words that are fun to read. Maybe some cultivars/mutations have more fragrance, but even then I myself doubt that it would be much to write home about when comparing it to most other citrus cultivars.

Another one of those, in my opinion, scams, is this shop selling Trifoliate fruits: https://www.thewasabicompany.co.uk/products/fresh-flying-dragon

I quote from the page:

Quote
These oranges are rarely eaten raw, instead, they're perfect for cooking. They make wonderful marmalades, syrups and jam and you can also make sweet, chewy snacks by candying the peel with sugar which you can add to cakes and cocktails for a tangy twist.

The rinds can also be a great substitute for lemon zest and used as a cocktail garnish.

Perfect for cooking? Perfect as if there isn't anything much better than this? Not only is there better, this is actually one of the worst.

Wonderful marmalades? If pure trifoliate makes wonderful marmalades, then Yuzu marmalade must blow these peoples panties off with the force of a SpaceX Starship.

Great substitute for lemon zest? That's like saying your garden grass makes a great substitute for lettuce in a salad.

And then they have the balls to ask €44 per kilo for the fruit. They themselves sell the Yuzu for less.

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Organic Georgia trifoliate for sale at the farmers market!
« on: March 14, 2024, 12:59:25 PM »
Is this VinnieVegas another bot account?

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus daoxianensis (Daoxian wild mandarin)
« on: February 24, 2024, 06:50:30 AM »
Quote from: BorisR on February 23, 2024, 11:19:04 AM
I remember that there were two species of C. reticulata and C. daoxianensis, and they were both called "Daoxian wild". And this confusion was even in scientific articles. To answer you thoroughly, I will need to find and re-read these articles again. Unfortunately, there is no time at all now, I haven't even visited the forum here for a week... I will try to answer in more detail and with links later.

Don't worry about it. Good to know there is the possibility of two cultivars.
I wasn't too interested anymore after the pictures of the cultivar from Adavo / myplantbox don't show rough skin, but I might contact the University or IVIA to see if they are able to share scions from their version.

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus daoxianensis (Daoxian wild mandarin)
« on: February 20, 2024, 07:54:22 PM »
Quote from: BorisR on February 20, 2024, 01:46:50 PM
As far as I remember, there is confusion with Citrus reticulata "Daoxian wild" and Citrus daoxianensis. Do not confuse them.

The publication itself says Daoxian wild is the common name for Citrus daoxianensis. Is your suspicion that the publication is wrong to think Daoxian wild refers to Citrus daoxianensis? Or that the nurseries selling Daoxian wild are incorrectly using this name?

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus daoxianensis (Daoxian wild mandarin)
« on: February 11, 2024, 09:28:58 AM »
Quote from: Jibro on February 11, 2024, 09:00:53 AM
I have Daoxian Wild from Adavo grafted on Citrumelo for about 4 years. It has small fruits 2-3 cm, 10-15g, but they ripen late, When it flowered at the end of April, the fruits were still green in December, I picked them in March fully colored.
The skin is not as bumpy as in your picture, the taste is different from normal mandarins, not too sour as I would expect from a wild mandarin and quite good.

Interesting, maybe the bumpy skin only happens in a warm climate? Maybe I will try to email the University and ask them about this rough / smooth skin variation.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Citrus daoxianensis (Daoxian wild mandarin)
« on: February 11, 2024, 07:57:16 AM »
I like citrus fruits that have a rough or corrugated skin. I noticed this daoxianensis mandarin has very rough skin, but I can't find much about it online.

Does anyone have this cultivar?

This might be it, but the fruit in the picture has a very smooth skin so I'm quite unsure if it's the same cultivar https://myplantbox.de/en/different-citrus-type/52-daoxian-wild.html

This is where I found it:

Botanical Monographs. Jardín Botánico de la Universitat de València
Volume 2: Citrus





It's hard to see in this low resolution, but I have the print version, which is higher quality, and there you can see that each fruit on the tree is quite rough and bumpy.




8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Let's create a new cold-resistant citrus tree!! "Steps and path to take"
« on: February 07, 2024, 05:04:21 PM »
Quote from: Zagara on January 16, 2024, 06:39:33 AM
A little subsidiary question (and a little off topic so sorry about that) :

I'v seen in the video that they graft on very yong rootstock. Ok. But do someone know why they make their rootstock grow thin and frail and white in the dark ?? I ve seen this on the 2 vidéos of this corsican inrae laboratory.

Quote from: Lauta_hibrid on January 16, 2024, 07:27:06 AM
https://youtu.be/GNxREt0DgQ4?si=w8vGfQoDqH45cTOy

No, I hadn't seen it, it could be that I overlooked a video like that because I don't know French and the subtitles or translation doesn't appear... maybe I understood something hehe.  (I would like to have that field 😅) About the seedlings, the truth is that I can only speculate, I have also seen it in other videos... I suppose because they want it to have a long stem so that it is easy to graft and that it is below the cotyledons , thus the bud that sprouts is the grafted one.  Here I found the video that inspired me to do the "vertical growth" technique, that's what I call it 😅, to make hybrids bloom quickly.  They call it "The RES"

I found this information, I quote from Botanical Monographs. Jardín Botánico de la Universitat de València - Volume 2: Citrus:

"Sanitation is performed by the technique known as shoot-tip grafting in vitro, which involves grafting an apex comprising an apical meristem and three leaf primordia onto the rootstock (in this case Troyer citrange). This micrograft measures some 0.1 or 0.2 mm, so it is done in test tubes under a microscope. Micrografted plants grow in culture chambers for 4-6 weeks and are then transplanted to the greenhouse.

Sanitation is carried out not only on native citrus but also on varieties that are imported from abroad, which have to go through the Quarantine Station. Here official sanitary checks are performed and micrografting is done following the same process as for the autochthonous plants."

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: What to try in zone 8a-b
« on: February 01, 2024, 06:26:01 AM »
From pictures it seems 3-3 has narrow petioles and 2-2 has wider petioles, but the 2-2 plant from a nursery in France that me and at least one other person got a 2-2 from, seems to have narrow petioles. So not sure what's up with that.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Question about grafting dormant trifoliate/citrumelo
« on: January 26, 2024, 10:32:38 AM »
I can confirm that the Yuzu graft that I made on January 5th is showing the beginning of new growth now.

Still early but it's there:


11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Question about grafting dormant trifoliate/citrumelo
« on: January 25, 2024, 05:58:43 PM »
Yes, I have grafted on dormant rootstock (Poncirus) in January. Last year I did a batch of 13 or 14 grafts, with 100% success rate. Higher than I've had grafting in spring and summer.

The rootstocks were outside until the moment I grafted them. But after grafting I try to warm them up with a heating pad. Here you can see a picture of those January grafts, at the bottom of the cardboard box there was a heating pad.



This year I have only made one graft so far. It was on a larger rootstock, and my heating pad was partially in use, so instead I put it on our heated floor for about a week I think. Then I moved it to a south facing window. I left some Poncirus branches (no leaves present) below the graft and three days ago I noticed it had began making new growth. The scion still looks healthy, not sure if it has started new growth. I didn't notice any today, but I didn't look up close.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Let's create a new cold-resistant citrus tree!! "Steps and path to take"
« on: January 23, 2024, 06:13:59 AM »
Quote from: drymifolia on January 21, 2024, 05:15:52 PM
Riverside has an alleged glauca X Meyer lemon cross, but doesn't look like budwood is available via either CCPP or GRIN:

https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc2439

Quote from: Lauta_hibrid on January 22, 2024, 10:02:59 AM
These are the hybrids with glauca, on the same scale (in theory because I had to guess mostly).  citrangeremo is not there because I have not found photos of the fruit that can confirm that it is like that, since in the photos it seems indistinguishable from eremorange.  If someone has the plant with fruits and distinguishes it from Eremorange, I ask if you can upload a photo 🙏☺️


I believe it is uncertain if the Eremolemon is a hybrid with (meyer) lemon, some sources think it's with lemon, some think it's with pomelo.

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Let's create a new cold-resistant citrus tree!! "Steps and path to take"
« on: January 18, 2024, 03:59:47 PM »
Just a curiosity; does Glauca x Poncirus (or the reverse) exist?

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Let's create a new cold-resistant citrus tree!! "Steps and path to take"
« on: January 15, 2024, 02:49:13 PM »
@Lauta_hibrid

Thanks for the info.

Here I posted a picture and some info of Ichangmoï, a cross between Ichang Papeda and Moï (C. Ichangensis x C. Pennivesiculata) https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=48032.msg508939#msg508939

Ichangquat is possible to make hybrids with, Ilya has been doing this as well.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Let's create a new cold-resistant citrus tree!! "Steps and path to take"
« on: January 15, 2024, 09:58:02 AM »
I was thinking of starting a topic named something like “Citrus breeding for dummies (aka Peep)”
Not sure now if I should create my own topic, or put everything here. I’ll put it here for now.

I've been making a few notes that I wanted to include in it, and ask for some people to contribute. I get confused often with words such as Zygotic, so for example I made these notes:

  • Zygotic embryos are sexually produced and inherit genetic material from both parents, resulting in a hybrid seedling.
  • Nucellar embryos are asexually produced and genetically identical to the parent plant
  • Polyembryonic seed can contain multiple zygotic embryos, multiple nucellar embryos or contain both (a) zygotic and nucellar embryo(s).
  • Smaller embryos are considered zygotic, and are often found more towards the micropyle end (tip of the seed), whereas larger embryos are usually nucellar.
  • The direction of a cross may be indicated by including the sexual symbols (♀: female; ♂: male) in the formula, or by placing the female parent first.

Then I also wanted to list good resources on how to make the pollination in practice:
https://fruitmentor.com/breeding-growing-citrus-from-seed
…

And collect some tips:
  • As @kumin pointed out in another topic, when making a cross, you can inspect the flower to check if pollen has not yet been released, but you can also remove the anthers more in advance, after which you wait for the stigma to mature and become receptive to pollen. If the stigma is moist / sticky, it is usually an indication of it being ready to accept pollen.
  • And now another tip from @lauta_hibrid is to remove each flower that is not pollinated by you. Described as removing the competition. Making sure that the plant only produces the fruits that are intentionally pollinated will give a higher chance of a successful fruit set and having the fruits mature.

My problem:

I have many cultivars, and even though my plants are small, if I have a chance this spring and summer I want to try breeding them. The problem is that I’m not sure which cultivars produce zygotic and/or nucellar seeds, or have sterile pollen. I don’t want to spend all my effort trying to make a cross pollination with a combination that isn’t viable.

I made a few notes on seed types, but most of what I have are hybrids.

Mandarin = highly polyembryonic
Paradisii = polyembryonic
Maxima (pummelo) = zygotic
Kumquats = zygotic

So I made a new google spreadsheet with my plants, and thought that maybe some of forum members with more knowledge could write in the document if the cultivar is zygotic, nucellar, etc. and I can check if it is best used as male or female parent:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15-ZkvCNcXmXNeLvi2XqKinxofuKsxkwT6ENBtiCNHeM/edit?usp=sharing

@a_Vivaldi made a similar list for general use: https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=51232.0 which I used to add some information in my list.
@BorisR mentioned having a similar document as well.
And here is also information on seed type of certain cultivars: http://citruspages.free.fr/classification.php

This way I can look in this list of my plants whenever they flower and see if I can make a useful cross pollination.
The approach I want to take is probably a little different, because I don’t want to use Poncirus.
This is as example of what I would like to try, if they are viable combinations:

Ichangmoï x Kumquat (Nameiwa or Marumi)   -> make an “Ichangmoïquat”
   
Ichangquat 672 x Shekwasha   
Ichangquat 672 x Yuzu   
Ichangquat 672 x Kishu   
Ichangquat 672 x Changsha   
Ichangquat 672 x Yuzumelo (Yuzu x Citrumelo)
   
Yuzumelo (Yuzu x Citrumelo) x Ichangquat 672   
Yuzumelo (Yuzu x Citrumelo) x Changsha   
Yuzumelo (Yuzu x Citrumelo) x Kishu   
Yuzumelo (Yuzu x Citrumelo) x Yuzu

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: How to create a new fruit? - My hybridization project in Argentina.
« on: January 11, 2024, 03:49:03 PM »
Does someone know good papers, tutorials or videos on how to cross citrus? Looking for things like technique, but also photo examples of when to pollinate a flower (before they pollinate themselves) etc.

This one is pretty good: https://fruitmentor.com/breeding-growing-citrus-from-seed

But it could be nice to have a few more sources to study.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: January 10, 2024, 09:56:12 AM »
Quote from: Florian on January 08, 2024, 02:40:13 AM
My smooth-skinned Hanayuzu from Lenzi tastes just like regular Hanayuzu. It did have some fruit on it when it arrived that had a relatively smooth skin as far as I remember. But all subsequent fruits have just looked like plain normal Hanayuzu (or like the one you show).

Yeah, I've been looking at some pictures, and while my fruit wasn't as bumpy as Hana Yuzu fruits are sometimes, it also isn't really more smooth than regular Hana Yuzu that I've seen picutres of.

Maybe the two variants that Adavo sells are exactly the same. Unless one is 'regular' and the other 'extra bumpy'. Instead of regular and smooth.

In the picture on the Agrumi Lenzi website, there is a somewhat unique shape visible on the fruit to the far right. I don't know if this is normal for (regular) Hana Yuzu. I haven't seen this ribbed trait yet in other Hana Yuzu pictures.





 

18
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Gummosis on citrus
« on: January 08, 2024, 05:59:03 PM »
Quote from: Tropicaltoba on January 07, 2024, 06:16:46 PM
Peep, thanks for the info. What did you do to fix it specifically. I read that overdoing it with the copper is worse.

I gave it some copper sulfate, the blue cristals, dissolved into water. I don't know why this Keraji plant had the problem, I have many citrus plants and none of the others had this issue. I'm not sure if it's solved with the copper I gave it, I cut away a lot of the plant and I'll probably have to wait and see if it develops the same issue again in spring.

I'm a bit unsure about the dosage with the copper sulfate, and the risk of giving too much. I would prefer to use a slow release supplement that contains enough copper.

This year I will buy a bag of lava flour for the silicate and other minerals. I think it also contains a bit of copper. The other fertilisers I use do have trace minerals, but I think it might be good to use the lava flour in addition. To have even more minerals, and the silicate as well (if you don't use perlite or other sources of silica in the soil).

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: January 07, 2024, 10:19:01 AM »
Small general update again:

My first and only harvest so far. It was a fruit from the "Hana Yuzu (Sudachi)" that Adavo sells. It's not really new information, but it tastes like (Hana) Yuzu, Sudachi is not relevant to it. I suspect that it is likely the same as the "Smooth Skin Hanayuzu" (Hanayuzu a buccia liscia) from Lenzi, but I have not tasted that one yet.





At first I didn't really know what to do with a single fruit, but I ended up using a microplane to grate the skin right into a drinking glass. Squeezed the juice in the glass as well, added some sugar syrup and let it sit for half a day to extract some of the oils in the grated skin. Then just added water in the glass and it was a really good lemonade. Didn't filter out the fine bits of skin, didn't bother me, was a bit like drinking juice with pulp.

Because my plants are on a rooftop, there can be some strong wind turbulence and I was in need of some more protection for certain plants. Recently I finished building my tiny green house in the basement and set it up on the roof. The back (against the wall) is still open so it's mostly wind protection right now.


20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: January 07, 2024, 10:08:10 AM »
Quote from: Zagara on December 31, 2023, 09:35:00 AM
I add the link of the video (if it worked)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmvSheROGS4
explenation on yuzu n°30 around 19'30seconds.

Yes these videos are very nice! I have watched all of the citrus related videos on this channel. I have to use the subtitles though unfortunately.


21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frosthardiness experience with citrusvarieties in zone 7, down to 3,2 F
« on: January 05, 2024, 08:08:35 PM »
Quote from: tedburn on January 05, 2024, 11:15:15 AM
This summer I tried my first crossings, but only one seems to be successful,
Cross of Yuzu x Citrumelo with Bloomsweet.
The first seedlings show interesting leave shapes, hope this is an indicator for a
succesful cross  :D.

That's a cool cross. Will be interesting to see the leaves develop as they grow a little bigger.
Can't wait until I can make my own crosses.

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Gummosis on citrus
« on: January 02, 2024, 06:59:45 PM »
A plant of mine had resin coming out of it as well, and had lumps caused by resin build up. In my case it turned out to be a copper deficiency.

You can see details here: https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=51758.0

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: December 23, 2023, 01:30:00 PM »
Quote from: mikkel on December 23, 2023, 06:50:12 AM
I would say that since you are using Citrus instead of Fortunella, it is helpful to use Kumquat in the common name. (but this is only my personal point of view)
Kumquats are distinct from true Citrus, although they are no longer a separate genus.

Yes, I prefer using Citrus trifoliata, Citrus japonica and Citrus glauca. To me it didn't make much sense to have some types being seperated. If so, then I think a cross between e.g. trofoliata and orange, would have been an intergeneric hybrid. So what would we call a Citrange? Also not citrus? I'm not really educated well enough yet in the genetics of citrus for the things I say to have much importance, but this was just a thought I had.

On another note, I hate the name Yuzu N30 as it implies that it's a specific cultivar of pure yuzu. It is very likely a cross with mandarin, but I'm not aware of a name for this type of hybrid (in the trend of Ichang Papeda x Kumquat being Ichangquat). So I would call it either just N30 or for example Yuzu Hybrid 'N30'. I'm not sure what is best. Yuzu Hybrid is not a very official term, so while writing Kumquat 'Nameiwa' still has some sense to it, Yuzu Hybrid 'N30' might not. Opinions welcome. For now I just wrote N30, but this is also very short and generic, a google search of N30 wouldn't give good results for example.


Quote from: mikkel on December 23, 2023, 06:50:12 AM
just another note :)
Botanical names are written with a capital letter for the genus, but with a lower case letter for the species names

I should have looked this up earlier, it's corrected now. I also changed the correct parts to italicized text according to the botanical naming rules.




24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: December 22, 2023, 06:01:03 AM »
Quote from: BorisR on December 22, 2023, 01:17:57 AM
Great!
Hmm, I took photos for one of my projects. In the future, I planned to make sketches from them. The scans look good. But I don't like that when a leaf is flattened, it is less recognizable on the tree. You also don't have enough scale.

Yes, over time I will see if I can find some good naturally flat leaves from the plants, so they don't deform on the scanner. But as I make a little setup to photograph flowers, and eventually fruits, I will also try it with leaves and see how it compares to the scans.


Quote from: mikkel on December 22, 2023, 05:00:51 AM
just a short notice :)

HRS 899A is Changsha x Poncirus , the other way around as on your scan

great work !

Thanks, good tip, I'll update it soon.

For this one I was also not sure if everything was correct and optimal:

Kumquat 'Nameiwa'
Citrus Japonica
Citrus Margarita 'Nagami' x Citrus Crassifolia 'Meiwa'

Also not sure if I should remove the Kumquat from the name, because in another one I also don't write Changsha Mandarin, but just Changsha. But I do write things like Ichang Papeda 'Ivia' and Yuzu 'N°3' and not just 'Ivia' by itself. So the question is if the name 'Kumquat' is on the same level as 'Ichang Papeda'

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My citrus collection [EU - Antwerp]
« on: December 21, 2023, 04:08:13 PM »
Began trying to document more about my citrus plants, so I've scanned some of the leaves. Eventually I will scan them all, but some plants are small and not all of them have mature or healthy leaves.

Here are a few examples:







Here is the album with all of them so far, when I scan more of them, they will be added here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/EV2ys2YzHVpfSvnf8

Also feel free to let me know if you see an innacuracy in the naming of the cultivars.

I will try to make a little setup to be able to make good pictures of flowers and fruits. Fruits might take a while before all my plants are big enough, but a fair amount of them should flower in the coming season. 

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