At my wits end with these two citrus trees

[Calusa]

Two trees, in the ground for about 2 years. Planted in 3' wide, 3'deep hole filled with improved soil. Yard has a lot of limestone fill. This is the first fruit crop for each tree. I irrigate when dry and fertilize every 3 months with granular with micronutrients. They are about 5-1/2' tall.

As you can see these trees are lacking something but I just don't know what. Maybe they are infected with citrus greening? The tangerines are still in the ripening stage and should be ripe by now. I picked the ripest looking one the other day and the fruit looked perfectly normal, but sour. The fruits are undersize, about the size of a golf ball. The close up photo of the leaves show what I am referring to.

The tangelo - small fruit as well, and there is some die-back on the branches, which is a sign of citrus greening. From my citrus growing experience this tree (and the tangerine) should be twice as big as it is. It's just scrawny and sickly looking. During the past Summer I noticed that it was very wobbly and unstable at the root base, so I added some support stakes. I can't understand why that would happen. Too wet maybe? Close up photo of the leaves show the problem with the tree. Someone please help me identify what the problem is, and if these trees are a lost cause and should be taken out. Thanks

TANGERINE TREE


TANGERINE CLOSEUP


TANGELO TREE


TANGELO CLOSEUP

[mar3]

The chlorosis looks symmetrical, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on greening. Looks most like either manganese or zinc deficiency. Manganese deficiency shows up more in winter, so if you're in the northern hemisphere, maybe that's a good guess. The more yellowish leaves might indicate lacking of nitrogen or sulfur.

I'd recommend finding a micronutrient mix with these particular elements and doing a fortnightly foliar spray to see if things improve. Definitely check your soil pH, and lime if needed. Consider a soil test with a micronutrient check as well. I'd recommend removing the grass and mulching to at least the drip line so that they no longer need to compete with the lawn.

[1rainman]

Citrus greening 100%. They don't die right away you have a slow death where they go on for years being unhealthy like this but steadily get worse. The whole area of Florida is infested with it. You can try the new "sugar bell" which is resistant. I have some seedlings of a wild orange that is not great but decent/edible which is resistant. I guess lemons are resistant so you could get a meyer lemon. I wish they would release some of those trifoliate hybrids which are resistant. I tried to ask anyone on the forum if they had seeds to send me but no luck.

[1rainman]

The chlorosis looks symmetrical, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on greening. Looks most like either manganese or zinc deficiency. Manganese deficiency shows up more in winter, so if you're in the northern hemisphere, maybe that's your best bet. The more yellowish leaves might indicate lacking of nitrogen or sulfur.

I'd recommend finding a micronutrient mix with these particular elements and doing a fortnightly foliar spray to see if things improve. Definitely check your soil pH, and lime if needed. Consider a soil test with a micronutrient check as well. I'd recommend removing the grass and mulching to at least the drip line so that they no longer need to compete with the lawn.

Nope. I have seen it 100 times in southwest florida. It's the virus. Yes it does resemble a nutrient deficiency in appearance but there is no cure for it.

[mar3]

You could be right, and it'd probably be worth sending off a sample for verification. But I don't see the trademark asymmetry. Or, at least it's difficult to tell from the pictures. Here's an image taken from one of the University of Florida's sites on HLB:

Figure 13.  Comparison of citrus greening (top) (blotchy mottle pattern) with nutrient deficiency (bottom). If the pattern inside of the circles does not match, it is possibly greening. If the pattern inside of the circles matches, it is possibly nutrient deficiency.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP326

[Millet]

First, the tree started out wrong.  When planting a citrus tree one should only  dig a hole large enough for the tree fit into.  Then back fill should be only the dirt that was removed when the hole was dug.  I agree with 1rainman that the tree has HLB.  You need to consult your county agricultural department right away.

[Calusa]

First, the tree started out wrong.  When planting a citrus tree one should only  dig a hole large enough for the tree fit into.  The back fill should be only the dirt that was removed when the hole was dug.  I agree with 1rainman that the tree has HLB.  You need to consult your county agricultural department right away.

Why would I need to consult the county ag department, since greening appears to be everywhere in Florida, and what's two more trees?

Additionally, the reason for the large hole I dug is the surrounding soil is limestone fill and dredging from Tampa bay back in the 50's. I extracted a lot of large clam shells and thousands of tiny ones. I had to use a pickaxe to break into it so I could use a shovel. I seriously doubt a small citrus tree would be able to thrive or even survive in that hardened, packed soil. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I assure you I did the trees no harm in backfilling the hole with an improved sand mix typically found in a Florida backyard. I am no expert at growing citrus, but my experience and success in growing it in Central Florida goes back more than 50 years.

[1rainman]

In Florida it's best to dig a big hole and fill with potting soil or compost because the sand and shells here is junk other than a small amount in the mix.

We did an oak tree with a huge hole of potting soil like 20 years ago. It's huge now you would think it's 50 years old. Even my grapes don't want to grow in this sand. The pepper trees seem unstoppable though. They must take nutrients out of the air or something. Nothing in these shells and sand except calcium. Very low nitrogen and even if you fertilize it doesn't hold nutrients just washed into the waterways causing algae blooms. The plant will get a little. The compost will hold water and nutrients.

[poncirsguy]

Kill the grass under the tree leaving a grass free radius of 3 feet minimum.

[Calusa]

In Florida it's best to dig a big hole and fill with potting soil or compost because the sand and shells here is junk other than a small amount in the mix.

We did an oak tree with a huge hole of potting soil like 20 years ago. It's huge now you would think it's 50 years old. Even my grapes don't want to grow in this sand. The pepper trees seem unstoppable though. They must take nutrients out of the air or something. Nothing in these shells and sand except calcium. Very low nitrogen and even if you fertilize it doesn't hold nutrients just washed into the waterways causing algae blooms. The plant will get a little. The compost will hold water and nutrients.

Thanks 1rainman. Glad you posted here.

[Calusa]

Kill the grass under the tree leaving a grass free radius of 3 feet minimum.

Thanks. Yes I faithfully kept it cleared of growth out to the drip line from day one, but since I began losing hope with these trees a few months ago, watching fruit fall off and foliage getting uglier each month I sort of gave up on that. I have a scuffle hoe just for that. If I can find a Sugar Belle I'll grab one and give it a try.

[Galatians522]

Both trees have HLB. The tangelo is also showing a micronutrient deficiency in my opinion. The first thing to be damaged by HLB is the roots. So, through no fault of your own the tree can't uptake much of the granular fertilizer you have been using. A lot of grove owners have switched to foliar feeding to bypass the poor root system. They are also saying to water twice as often for half as long. A few people have had success with thermotherapy but they are saying now that it won't kill the bacteria in the roots of in ground trees. Citrus is too much work for me right now. Someday I will try again with trees that are bagged or in a screened structure.

[Rispa]

There's some hope for a cure. I wonder if you grafted a resistant plant onto an infected one of it might pass on immunity. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-australian-finger-lime-could-save-american-citrus-180975434/

Another idea. Plant Melaleuca alternifolia and calendula very close by since their oils are antibacterial and see if the trees absorb some of the oil and if it helps.

[mar3]

I wonder if you grafted a resistant plant onto an infected one of it might pass on immunity.

They're experimenting with this idea:
https://citrusresearch.org/research-projects/development-of-hlb-resistance-through-inarching-novel-disease-tolerant-hybrids-and-through-breeding

Composite grafted plants inarched with ‘Eremolemon,’ ‘Australian Finger lime’ and ‘Large leaf Australian wild lime’ developed HLB symptoms indicating that these HLB-resistant or tolerant accessions did not impart this trait to the grafted plant. However, ‘Orange jasmine’ used as an inarch did offer protection against CLas if the inarched stem was securely attached to the grafted plant. Out of 22 plants inarched with ‘Orange jasmine,’ 20 showed low titers of CLas (Ct 35-38) and did not develop symptoms when the inarch was intact.

Due to the difference in the growth rates of citrus and ‘Orange jasmine,’ the inarch was dislodged after a few months. We have modified the technique and are continuing experiments to confirm the ability of ‘Orange jasmine’ to impart disease tolerance. Preliminary results indicate that HLB-resistant ‘Orange jasmine’ can impart tolerance to scions grafted on ‘Kuhaske’ rootstock.

[1rainman]

Basically all root stocks are resistant. The sour orange, trifoliate, hybrids like swingle. It helps some but doesn't save the tree from damage.

Swingle is almost edible but not quite. I would love an edible hybrid. I guess that's what this wild orange seems to be that has been growing in the park as long as I remember. But they made better crosses and haven't released them.

My dad ordered a sugar bell online. It's a fast grower and healthy. I have never seen them at Lowes or anything.

[Calusa]

I'm looking for a Sugar Belle but the only place I can find them is on eBay, which may or may not be a good thing.

Can you share where your Dad got his?

[1rainman]

It's overall healthy and growing, but I think it does take a little damage from greening. The trifoliate and sour oranges seem to be super healthy and have zero damage. But at least this is a tree you can grow and get good fruit from despite greening. I haven't tasted the fruit, my dads tree is less than a year and hasn't fruited yet. It is honey bell x tangerine which honey bell is one of my favorite citrus, so its 3/4 tangerine.

Google search shows most places sold out of them. I don't see the site where my dad bought it. It was from the Florida government or something. I found one place that isn't sold out. Being that it's a brand new variety (I guess maybe a couple years now) its in high demand so that they can't produce new ones fast enough. I wouldn't mind trying to get some seeds and see what they grow but that's a five or six year wait to get fruit on something grown from seed.


https://sowexotic.com/products/sugar-belle-orange-citrus-reticulata-clemintine-x-minneola#Reviews-4439640604772

Then I found a forum post on it

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18265.0

[Calusa]

It's overall healthy and growing, but I think it does take a little damage from greening. The trifoliate and sour oranges seem to be super healthy and have zero damage. But at least this is a tree you can grow and get good fruit from despite greening. I haven't tasted the fruit, my dads tree is less than a year and hasn't fruited yet. It is honey bell x tangerine which honey bell is one of my favorite citrus, so its 3/4 tangerine.

Google search shows most places sold out of them. I don't see the site where my dad bought it. It was from the Florida government or something. I found one place that isn't sold out. Being that it's a brand new variety (I guess maybe a couple years now) its in high demand so that they can't produce new ones fast enough. I wouldn't mind trying to get some seeds and see what they grow but that's a five or six year wait to get fruit on something grown from seed.


https://sowexotic.com/products/sugar-belle-orange-citrus-reticulata-clemintine-x-minneola#Reviews-4439640604772

Then I found a forum post on it

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18265.0

Thanks. I just ordered one from Sow Exotic. Since it will be small I think I'll construct a fine mesh tepee over it,
and enlarge it as it grows until it gets too big.

[FruitGrower]

In Florida it's best to dig a big hole and fill with potting soil or compost because the sand and shells here is junk other than a small amount in the mix.

We did an oak tree with a huge hole of potting soil like 20 years ago. It's huge now you would think it's 50 years old. Even my grapes don't want to grow in this sand. The pepper trees seem unstoppable though. They must take nutrients out of the air or something. Nothing in these shells and sand except calcium. Very low nitrogen and even if you fertilize it doesn't hold nutrients just washed into the waterways causing algae blooms. The plant will get a little. The compost will hold water and nutrients.

Thanks 1rainman. Glad you posted here.

I think citrus would prefer sand and shells rather than potting soil or compost but, as others have mentioned, I think your trees big problem is likely greening. I would not grow citrus without screen protection in most of Florida. They’re actually not that difficult to grow with the screens.

[1rainman]

Nothing grows well in pure sand other than cactus, pineapple. Sandy soil is one thing but it's pure beach sand here. Literally everything benefits from compost added here. Even stuff like last ve oak which will grow in pure sand it grows faster with compost. And even cactus grows in potting soil though it prefers sand in some ways.

Yes citrus likes sandy dirt but pure sand doesn't hold water or nutrients.

[Galatians522]

Thats an interesting discussion. Before greening, citrus yielded about 50% more on "beach sand" than it did on flatwoods soils or muck as long as that beach sand was well drained. Beach sand with a high water table was had poor yields. At least that is what the USDA soils survey from the 1950s says. I have a copy at the office. Now, everyone is putting compost on their groves, so additional organic matter must be helpful to a point.

[1rainman]

May relate to being water logged on the other soils in Florida. Citrus like sandy but pure sand is not good. But even if you use pure compost it will turn more sandy over time and pure sand in a few years as the plant absorbs compost mostly some of it washes away. So pretty hard to overdo it.

[Yorgos]

If you take one of the fruit and cut it down the middle from pole to pole (not through the “equator”) if the center is curved it is definitely Greening.