The Tropical Fruit Forum

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:04:57 PM

Title: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:04:57 PM
Just had to rant about this...  Sorry in advance  :D  I noticed theres so many overhyped avocado types.  I tried growing as many as possible and found most to be uninspiring.  Either the flavor is not there, or the tree has bad growth habits, or some other problem.  Many of these are hyped up by the UC breeding program or by the grounds keepers at the UC Irvine grove.  And some have just been around forever and for some reason people keep propogating them even though theres much better options  ???

My chainsaw has been getting a real workout lately.  Heres a short list of ones that have had a date with the chipper.


Ardith
Mexicola
Mexicola Grande
Stewart
Holiday
Daily11
Jim Bacon
Sir Prize
Jan Boyce
Fuerte
Bacon
Zutano
GEM
Party time
Coleen Davis


And theres more that will likely be chopped down and turned into saw dust after I waste a few more seasons on them as well !  ;D  :P

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:08:45 PM
My definite keeper list:

Hass
Reed
Fujikawa
Nabal
Sharwil
Gwen
Carmen

And theres a whole list of undecided but likely to be doused with glyphosate and set on fire if they dont do something useful very quickly.  :D
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Bush2Beach on May 26, 2022, 12:17:16 PM
Great info! Thanks Brad.
I agree with all the crappers, and appreciate seeíing your list if winners. I havenít tried growing a few of those still .
Jan Boyce not make the cut due to production , flavor, or skipping years?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: K-Rimes on May 26, 2022, 12:25:26 PM
Sounds like should just top work my Sir Prize now.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: 12Zodiac on May 26, 2022, 12:25:35 PM
Lucky for me that I have a Reed, Nabal, Sharwil, Hass and Lamb Hass. I may have bought some Jan Boyce scions from Brad a few years ago but the grafts never took and I was very disappointed. Now, I think Iím good with what I have.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:25:52 PM
The Jan Boyce,  "the connoisseur's avocado" has to take the cake as the most overhyped avocado on earth!  Flavor is nice on this one.  But it has several issues!  First of all, the tree is lanky and the branches can get sun burn if you live in a hot area.  Also the fruit are not well protected from sun because of the lanky growth and exposed interior of the tree.  That is if it will set fruit for you.  Ive found it to not be reliable at setting a decent crop.  It alternates and also has poor fruit set even after an off year.  It clearly has a high percentage of mexican lineage in its DNA.  Evidenced by the thin skin that cracks at the neck of the fruit when approaching peak ripeness making it vulnerable to rodent infestation and early dropping!  These fruits ripen very early here and start dropping by late winter around February or March and do not hang well on the tree because of the mexican lineage.  It's too warm here for this tree and fruit to do well.  The foliage on this one clearly struggles during heatwaves here and can experience dieback for no apparent reason as well.  I grew 4 of these trees and all 4 exhibit the same poor qualities.

I give this avocado a 5 turd rating.   :D
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Epicatt2 on May 26, 2022, 12:34:03 PM
Spaugh, mightn't it be fair to consider that those avo cultivars which you have found to be 'uninspiring' may in some instances just be the result of growing them in your California climate? 

It may be that under different climatic conditions some of those cultivars may produce well and have better flavor.

Notwithstanding that if they are not producing decent fruit for you where you are then you may be right in shovel pruning them.  But your observations on those various cultivars in some instances may be that you are painting them unfaairly with too broad a brush.

Just my 2Ę worth . . .

Regards,

Pau M.
Tampa, FL
Zone 9b
==
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:35:51 PM
Sounds like should just top work my Sir Prize now.

Sir Prize, oh boy another overhyped turd.  Yeah it has some redeeming qualities but they are easily outweighed by the negatives.  My Sir Prize trees do set a prolific load of fruit.  But then they take 1 or 2 more seasons to recover from their rediculous fruit set.  Which is funny because other people report no fruit ever.  Mine have the opposite problem, they fruit so hard the branches weap and can break and the sun then burns the weeping wood.  In general the tree has a weak growth pattern and is not well suited to hot locations where sun damage is going to happen regularly.  The trees have weak to no central leader type growth and tend to make one of the worst looking avocado trees I've grown.  The fruit can be good but the quality seems to decline the more fruit it sets.  Fruit size is inconsistent.  They can be very large if theres a low fruitset and small if theres a lot of fruit on the tree.  The seed is small, but the peel is thin which I really am not a fan of.  It really needs to hang on the tree until spring to be good despite what you may read on the internet from various sources.  And by that time hass is also getting good and is just an all around better tree/fruit.  Even the inventor of the sir prize, gray martin has told me the sir prize is a bunk cado.  Never worthy of patententing IMO.  I have 2 of these trees and they perform exactly the same and Im going to chip this asap.  Will top work with gwen. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:36:23 PM
Spaugh, mightn't it be fair to consider that those avo cultivars which you have found to be 'uninspiring' may in some instances just be the result of growing them in your California climate? 

It may be that under different climatic conditions some of those cultivars may produce well and have better flavor.

Notwithstanding that if they are not producing decent fruit for you where you are then you may be right in shovel pruning them.  But your observations on those various cultivars in some instances may be that you are painting them unfaairly with too broad a brush.

Just my 2Ę worth . . .

Regards,

Pau M.
Tampa, FL
Zone 9b
==

No  :D

Actually yes and no. 

The ones that are not CA avocados, you are right. Like I have several Hawaii avocados that just dont flower or dont set fruit well. But so far, I have only put CA avocados on the junk list.  These are avocados that do best in CA.

Even some of the CA ones may do better in a cooler area.  But I feel Im giving you quite accurate info for southern CA.  I actually doubt any of the ones on the shit list taste any better anywhere else to be honest.  My location pumps out pretty good avocados.  Some of them are just overhyped!
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: brian on May 26, 2022, 12:48:44 PM
Taste wise I can't imagine how Hass could be beat.  When I got a box from you, Brad, they were all equally excellent I couldn't really distinguish.  I don't grow these so I don't know about their productivity, pest resistance, etc.

I feel same way about the mandarins available... they are basically perfect.  If they were any sweeter they would be gross. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: sc4001992 on May 26, 2022, 12:51:08 PM
Brad, I would like to hear why you didn't like the Daily 11. I have both the Daily 11 and Queen grafts growing for the large fruit size. I ate one Daily 11 and it seemed to taste good.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 12:57:56 PM
Heres the list of ones that are TBD.  Still under evaluation here

Yamagata (weak growth)
Nishikawa (poor flower/fruit set)
Green gold (not well suited for here, tree sags and gets sun burn, weak growth. fruit tastes awesome)
Koala (good fruit set, internal issue around seed)
Murishige (good growth and fruit set, looks promising)
Frank tbd
Kahaluu (lanky, poor fruit set, unimpressive flavor)
Malama (good bushy groth but not strong, need staking.  TBD)
OTA (lanky, no flowers)
Aneheim tbd
Puebla tbd
Queen tbd
Pinkerton (fruits well, good flavor, poor ripening characteristic and weak tree, not a winner).
Lamb (nice tree, produces well, fruit mediocre.  Not as good as real hass but later season, good for making $)
Hellen (great tree, beautiful fruit, late, not the best flavor, tbd)
Nimlioh (lanky tree, not a great shape tree, fruit tbd)
Whitsel (tbd)
Santa clara gold (tbd)
Ettinger (not impressed with flavor)
Edranol (amazing fruit, tree tbd, possibly related to sharwil.  Tastes like sharwil and green gold.)
Wurtz ( poor growth, poor flavor)
Pura Vida (all green flush, no red.  Only one I have with no red flush, doesnt like the dry heat.  Growth is ok, not great.  TBD)
Don Gilagoy tbd

Theres a few more Im still trialing but many of these ones will also get the axe. 

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 01:00:24 PM
Brad, I would like to hear why you didn't like the Daily 11. I have both the Daily 11 and Queen grafts growing for the large fruit size. I ate one Daily 11 and it seemed to taste good.

The daily 11 tree is lanky and has a poor growth shape habit.  Fruit are way too big and tend to have fibers.  Yeah its fun to have a 3lb avocado once or twice but its really not practical.  And the fruit seem to drop once they reach a moderate level of oil that wasnt impressive to me.  I would rate it as mediocre novalty at best.  Doesnt compare to the top tier fruits on any level other than its really BIG.   :D

Nabal is a much nicer fruit and tree if you want big fruits.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 01:04:44 PM
Taste wise I can't imagine how Hass could be beat.  When I got a box from you, Brad, they were all equally excellent I couldn't really distinguish.  I don't grow these so I don't know about their productivity, pest resistance, etc.

I feel same way about the mandarins available... they are basically perfect.  If they were any sweeter they would be gross.

Hass is the best all around tree for this area.  Highly productive.  High oil content, strong growth, good size fruit, hard shell, peels easily, hangs a long time.  Definitely a reason its grown here despite some of the negativity you may hear online.  Those people have likely not had a fully ripened hass from CA.  I ate 2 of them today and they were very ripe and tasted amazing!  Definitely a winner.  If all you are getting is junk hass from mexico, thats another story!!! :D

That said, sharwil, green gold, reed, nabal, all have as good or better flavor.  But hass is awesome no doubt.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 01:13:38 PM
By the way, I am just giving honest opinions.  No hard feeling, take it for what its worth which is not much!, I am wrong about many things in life, your mileage may vary etc etc etc,   

My location is interrior coastal san diego county 16 miles inland 1200ft elevation.  South facing hill, fast draing DG soil, well water 7.7 ph high iron, mangonese, calcium.   :D
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: yimnvs on May 26, 2022, 01:33:10 PM
Thanks for providing your experience because it will help those that do not know which variety to choose for their backyard, especially those with a limited space! Anyways, I have two reed, two sharwil, a gem, a pinkerton, a gwen, and a Holiday in my backyard. I have been top working the Holiday for the past two years; my nabal scions I got from you in Winter took nicely on the tree!
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 01:51:43 PM
Thanks for providing your experience because it will help those that do not know which variety to choose for their backyard, especially those with a limited space! Anyways, I have two reed, two sharwil, a gem, a pinkerton, a gwen, and a Holiday in my backyard. I have been top working the Holiday for the past two years; my nabal scions I got from you in Winter took nicely on the tree!

Great, holiday another loser in my book.  Despite good reviews by the queen of avocados and another member or 2 on this blog, I am just totally unimpressed with it and find it irritating that that one is even propogated commercially.  How many people waited years and years for their holidays to produce, only to have them drop early and have mediocre taste?  My holiday was actually growing quite well and producing nicely but they never were as good as a reed or nabal.  They tend to drop early too which is super annoying after waiting 16 months for them to be ready.  I top worked both my trees. 

GEM is ok but not as good as regular hass or gwen IMO.  The fruit look really nice until it softens up then the outside of the fruit looks spoiled.  They taste decent thogh.  The tree is nice and good growth pattern and productive and small.  Good for commercial $.  Just doesnt do it for me though.  This is probably the 2nd most overhyped avocado on earth. Its not even bad per se, just way hyped up.   :D
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: sc4001992 on May 26, 2022, 02:31:57 PM
Thanks for your reply Brad on the Daily 11.
Have you tried grafting the Ismael (seedling), west indie from JF? I read the fruits are large (2-4lbs) and I read it tastes good. I have some grafted on my trees.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: ben mango on May 26, 2022, 03:32:59 PM
What donít you like about mexicola? Nothing Iíve tasted comes close to mexicola as far as high oil content and nutty taste. I donít grow them so canít comment on how they grow. Sharwil are probably my favorite overall.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 03:47:55 PM
Ive heard other people say they love mexicola.  Personally the small fruit, big seed, anise flavor dont do it for me.  They get ripe super quick and fall all over the ground.  No commercial value..  Its not even in the same leage as some of the top ones IMO. 

Of course these are just my opinions take them for what they are worth  :D

Your mileage may vary !  :)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on May 26, 2022, 04:19:19 PM
Interesting topic Brad.  I agree with every variety on your list except Jan Boyce.  I live closer to the coast at lower elevation and Jan Boyce consistently produces big crops that hang on the tree relatively well.  The tree can get lanky yes, but seems to respond well to pruning.  The fruit tastes great, but is one step below a prime Reed, Nabal or Hass. 

Yeah it seems the UC system has produced some of the most overhyped, lackluster avocado varieties (i.e. Sir Prize, Holiday, GEM).  Out of those 3, I'd say GEM is the best.  There's so much potential with the UC system though, because they have the land and resources to develop some awesome new varieties, which they seem to be trying to do but have not succeeded yet.  And they've been at it for over 30 years.  They should be planting and testing out Nabal and Reed seedlings.  That genetic lineage seem to be really strong and adaptable to high heat, salt buildup in the soil, and produce consistently in different areas (inland and coastal).  If they planted a field of Nabal seedlings, I'm certain they would get at least a few winners. 

Your TBD list is interesting too.  I think Hellen, Nimlioh, Edranol and Pinkerton all taste great, and are definitely keepers in my opinion.  Regarding Hellen and Nimlioh, the downside is the fruits get so big, so it takes forever to mature them up to the right oil level and flavor, and then figuring out when they're ripe is a whole other task, thanks to their hard shells.  But it's all worth it in my opinion, because their flavor is outstanding.

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Seanny on May 26, 2022, 04:56:20 PM
Home grown Hass has been top for me.
On some occasions dad bought a good bag of Hass.

1st 2 years of my Reed had off flavor near the skin.
No off flavor on 1st fruit off my tree this year.
Seems on par with home grown Hass.

  How long has Sharwil been hanging after mature for you guys?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 26, 2022, 05:01:30 PM
the sharwils start dropping off by May and June here.  i saw Julies chart saying they hang for 12 months  ??? ::)

must be something special in that irvine water  :D

regarding Hellen, I have yet to get a good one.  They always seem watery even in mid summer.  I got a bunch of huge ones on the tree this year so Ill wait as long as possible to pick and see.  Ardith had the same problem.  Never did get to a great level of oil even after close to 18 mo.  Hellen I hope they come out good because the tree and fruit look great. 

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: canito 17 on May 26, 2022, 06:51:03 PM
I agree in most. Once I have many varieties. But Malama in my case is a great avocado despite the fruit size  (very small seed).And Reed flavor is horrible.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: BonsaiBeast on May 27, 2022, 12:11:24 AM
This was a pretty fun thread to read through. Brad has some strict standards. Definitely makes me reconsider my tree being half Sir Prize. Although it does seem to grow pretty vertically, likely having to do with the really big trunk it was grafted on?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: socalbalcony2 on May 27, 2022, 02:01:25 AM
Best avocado I've had was a reed @ Brad's..hass just didn't do it for me, not sure why

But last week on the big island we ate some super delicious sharwill (and some other variety just called 'butter')
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Lovetoplant on May 27, 2022, 02:46:59 AM
Brad, what is so special about Carmen that you like?  I heard it flowers 2x per year.  Thanks for all the great infos
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: pagnr on May 27, 2022, 06:12:42 AM
How are people using the Avocados they rate ?

An oily Hass is great to eat out of the skin with a spoon.
Also on the infamous "smashed avocado on toast" that became a political hot topic in Australia.
Millennials "overspending" when Avocados were $3 each a couple of years back here.
Hass can get off flavours at certain stages. Maybe when too dry/oily

Some of the lighter fleshed types can make better Guacamole, for balance of flavours. Zutano, Bacon.
The really watery tropical types in North Queensland ( West Indian ??) can be pretty neutral.
Some S E Asian cusines use Avocado in sweet smoothie drinks, don't think that an oily Haas is in there.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: pineislander on May 27, 2022, 07:56:35 AM
I expect there are many variables that pertain to how well avocado grow, produce and taste to actually say one or another is overhyped. When there are many variables comparison becomes very difficult. Rootstock, graft compatibility, soil, microclimate, cultural practices and an individual tree's root structure are just some of many variables likely involved.
Just look at any orchard of supposedly identical trees and you will see a big difference between trees.
 
Same thing with any comparison, many variables make hard comparisons.
 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on May 27, 2022, 10:43:29 AM
How are people using the Avocados they rate ?

An oily Hass is great to eat out of the skin with a spoon.
Also on the infamous "smashed avocado on toast" that became a political hot topic in Australia.
Millennials "overspending" when Avocados were $3 each a couple of years back here.
Hass can get off flavours at certain stages. Maybe when too dry/oily

Some of the lighter fleshed types can make better Guacamole, for balance of flavours. Zutano, Bacon.
The really watery tropical types in North Queensland ( West Indian ??) can be pretty neutral.
Some S E Asian cusines use Avocado in sweet smoothie drinks, don't think that an oily Haas is in there.
To me even Florida W.I. avocados with low oil content fully ripe can taste fine when eaten out of the skin with a spoon.  They can have a mild nutty flavor and a super-smooth texture.
That being said, the original Hass sure is the king in California.  My dad planted a tree in L.A. (1970's) when we lived about a dozen miles from the coast. and even there it produced amazing fruit.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: zands on May 27, 2022, 10:57:59 AM
By the way, I am just giving honest opinions.  No hard feeling, take it for what its worth which is not much!, I am wrong about many things in life, your mileage may vary etc etc etc,   

You are in the very dry, great wide open there. Where you live. I must think that in more densely settled locations (Los Angeles etc) , the avocado and mango trees get more protected from "the dry" via buildings and trees close to them. Shading them. Less moisture gets lost.

So their avo and mango results (yields) will be different.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 27, 2022, 11:44:02 AM
Brad, what is so special about Carmen that you like?  I heard it flowers 2x per year.  Thanks for all the great infos

Its basically hass but fruits earlier and sets tons of fruit.  My trees have not bloomed twice but they are still young so who knows maybe they will. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: kh0110 on May 27, 2022, 12:04:10 PM
Brad, I'm glad you're keeping Nabal and Sharwill. Those are my top two favorites.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 27, 2022, 12:31:41 PM
Brad, I'm glad you're keeping Nabal and Sharwill. Those are my top two favorites.

Yep i have at least 10 nabal trees and the grow super well.  And about 50 or more sharwil trees.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on May 27, 2022, 02:52:09 PM
By the way, I am just giving honest opinions.  No hard feeling, take it for what its worth which is not much!, I am wrong about many things in life, your mileage may vary etc etc etc,   

You are in the very dry, great wide open there. Where you live. I must think that in more densely settled locations (Los Angeles etc) , the avocado and mango trees get more protected from "the dry" via buildings and trees close to them. Shading them. Less moisture gets lost.

So their avo and mango results (yields) will be different.
The difference between inland valleys in SoCal and coastal areas is night-and-day--totally different climates.  Even L.A.  The Basin (south of the Santa Monica mountains) and the San Fernando Valley are hugely different.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 27, 2022, 03:20:19 PM
The optimal CA growing location is reported to be 5-15 miles inland from the coast on south facing granite hills just below the crest.  And optimal temperature is around 80F.

There are of course many trees growing fine outside of those general parameters.   :)

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on May 28, 2022, 10:42:42 AM
The optimal CA growing location is reported to be 5-15 miles inland from the coast on south facing granite hills just below the crest.  And optimal temperature is around 80F.

There are of course many trees growing fine outside of those general parameters.   :)
So I guess Fallbrook is in that zone?  Is it a lot hotter where you're located?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: ScottR on May 28, 2022, 11:31:50 AM
Great post Brad, if those varieties don't do good for you then they mostly don't have a chance by my location which is within 5-miles from coast. Holiday has be nice dwarf tree's but non-bearer also, Nishikawa,Hellen some fruit every year but less than a dozen. Fuerte shy bearer dependes on year and climate Malama small tree in bad place shy bearer for me too. I know most of my avocado's don't do well because I'm close to coast and have constant on shore winds almost. Temps aren't high enough to get good flower sex change during day many days so trees stay male all day. It has been frustrating to try and grow many of the listed varieties here so now just sticking with a few good growers and sometimes bearers of fruit. Keepers for me; Hass, Carmen Hass, Fuerte, Russel, Don Gillogy, Bacon,Hellen,Stewart,Reed even though shy bearer, Zutano, Magoon shy bearer, Mayo-even though is sweet bland,Jan Boyce f.n.(for now),Aravipa. Dud's to most likely to top work Puebla, Old fuerte seedling in process of top working,Holiday. Many varieties I have are on multi-grafted tree's which so far have worked will for my location. Losses Oro Negro, Choquette,Frey,Esther,Stearns,Edranol,Nowels. Up in air still to be determend are Daily 11, Yamagata, and another Fuerte tree I have kept many shy bearing trees because they grow well and give me some fruit and with enough trees or branch graft's I can get a reasonable amount to keep us in avocados for parts of the year. I covet the folks like Brad, who live in opptinal growing area's but then again i don't like the heat so stay close to coast.I have trialed many other varieties but they failed too so now done with trials and sticking with a few shy bearers to get me to the sunset of my life.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 28, 2022, 05:58:07 PM
The optimal CA growing location is reported to be 5-15 miles inland from the coast on south facing granite hills just below the crest.  And optimal temperature is around 80F.

There are of course many trees growing fine outside of those general parameters.   :)
So I guess Fallbrook is in that zone?  Is it a lot hotter where you're located?

Im not really sure.  Fallbrook is maybe slightly cooler than here but not by a lot.  Everyone is fallbrook is growing avocados though so theres extra moisture in the air from all the irrigation.  No one around here is farming, Im surrounded by miles of wilderness area and its all dry. 

I kind of wish I had moved to fallbrook.  After the market tanked in 08 I did look at a house there on 10 acres that had a pool and decent house, solar system, 500 mature citrus and avocado trees that was going for 400k.  It was further than we wanted to drive for work though. 

I havent been there but Ive been told Carpenteria is the ideal place.  Not even sure where that is, maybe ventura area?  I think that area north of LA on the coast has some nice weather.  Santa Barbra also nice weather.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: SHV on May 28, 2022, 06:34:10 PM
Love me a good controversial post. 
Brad- if you could pick one avocado other than Hass to start an orchard where you live considering growth habit, productivity, fruit flavor, and market value, what would you choose?
Iím still picking Hass off my trees and they are damn good this late in the season. Personally, I need a variety to cover the other 6 months of the year when the Hass trees are picked clean.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 28, 2022, 08:31:31 PM
Love me a good controversial post. 
Brad- if you could pick one avocado other than Hass to start an orchard where you live considering growth habit, productivity, fruit flavor, and market value, what would you choose?
Iím still picking Hass off my trees and they are damn good this late in the season. Personally, I need a variety to cover the other 6 months of the year when the Hass trees are picked clean.

I dont know tough question.  If you want to sell to a packing house then hass, gem, lamb are the best.  Those are great commercial trees.   For me I just have a small grove and dont want to sell to a packing house.  Its more of a for fun make a few extra bucks botique thing.  So for that I chose to plant hass, sharwil, reed, and nabals a few GEM, lamb, and gwens.  Even though I think GEM is overhyped, it is a nice tree and the fruit is pretty good, its a good commercial tree.

For late season, I think reed has the best flavor and produces ok and grows ok.  Lamb grows better and more productive but it just isnt as good tasting as hass or reed IMO. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 28, 2022, 08:42:43 PM
Lets talk about bacon avocado.  I have a huge bacon tree that makes hundreds of fruit.  The tree is beatiful and performs awesome.  The problem is it grows so large and makes so many fruit I cant use even a fraction of them.  And people dont really want to buy it.  So what to do with it?  Its not that I dont like bacon, its just not very practical.  So you can see the problems with some of these isnt always it grows poorly or doesnt produce, its just how many bacon or zutanos can you sell?  Zutano is the same way.  Super vigorous, makes hundreds of fruit, but no one wants them.  If they stayed somewhat small then I wouldnt mind keeping one around but these things turn in monsters.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: slopat on May 28, 2022, 09:06:14 PM
I like making guacamole with my bacon avocados more so than hass,  mexicola/stewart, reeds , and definitely zutano.  Add pressed garlic and fresh ground pepper to a creamy smooth mash. My tree is so much happier now that the neighbors gigantic eucalyptus is gone. Btw, seems to freeze ok as guacamole too.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the various trials.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 28, 2022, 09:21:45 PM
Every year I trim 5 to 10ft off the bacon tree and it just keeps getting bigger.  Its just too big of a tree and not much commercial value so I am going to top work it with something smaller.  Maybe just keep a few smaller branches of bacon.  Like 10 or 15 bacons per year is all I really want. 


Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: pagnr on May 28, 2022, 09:43:38 PM
Twenty Years ago Bacon was the Avocado var of "choice" in Melbourne Australia for cold tolerance reasons. (That is from the pool of Avocados in Australia.)
That has probably faded away as the Melbourne climate moderates, and other types succeed also in home gardens.
It is probably still popular outside of Melbourne, in the foothills or down the coast.
Over the last few years around here, you couldn't hardly buy a Zutano Avocado, they were snapped up for rootstock seed off farm.
They are back now at roadside stalls, since the boom has eased.
Avocado fruit are  back to about $1 each in the supermarkets at times. Mainly Hass types.
I have to confess I am mainly choosing to buy bulk Zutanos for the seeds I can get out of them, and the farm stall prices.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: jtnguyen333 on May 28, 2022, 10:05:37 PM
Last year..I saw an craigslist post for nabal avocados.  He charged 2 for $20.
Love me a good controversial post. 
Brad- if you could pick one avocado other than Hass to start an orchard where you live considering growth habit, productivity, fruit flavor, and market value, what would you choose?
Iím still picking Hass off my trees and they are damn good this late in the season. Personally, I need a variety to cover the other 6 months of the year when the Hass trees are picked clean.

I dont know tough question.  If you want to sell to a packing house then hass, gem, lamb are the best.  Those are great commercial trees.   For me I just have a small grove and dont want to sell to a packing house.  Its more of a for fun make a few extra bucks botique thing.  So for that I chose to plant hass, sharwil, reed, and nabals a few GEM, lamb, and gwens.  Even though I think GEM is overhyped, it is a nice tree and the fruit is pretty good, its a good commercial tree.

For late season, I think reed has the best flavor and produces ok and grows ok.  Lamb grows better and more productive but it just isnt as good tasting as hass or reed IMO.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 28, 2022, 10:48:41 PM
Twenty Years ago Bacon was the Avocado var of "choice" in Melbourne Australia for cold tolerance reasons. (That is from the pool of Avocados in Australia.)
That has probably faded away as the Melbourne climate moderates, and other types succeed also in home gardens.
It is probably still popular outside of Melbourne, in the foothills or down the coast.
Over the last few years around here, you couldn't hardly buy a Zutano Avocado, they were snapped up for rootstock seed off farm.
They are back now at roadside stalls, since the boom has eased.
Avocado fruit are  back to about $1 each in the supermarkets at times. Mainly Hass types.
I have to confess I am mainly choosing to buy bulk Zutanos for the seeds I can get out of them, and the farm stall prices.

Its a good rootstock.  I used mostly zutano and also some bacons for almost all my trees.  I planted a zutano just 2 or 3 years ago and ended up with close to 100 seeds off it already. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: CA Hockey on May 29, 2022, 05:47:40 AM
Hey brad

My green gold is a clear champ. Different from yours. Mine grows straight up, strong central leader, sets tons of fruit yearly, basically a problem free tree with lots of excellent large fruit.

Got mine from epicenter.
My hass is alternate bearing because it holds so much fruit every other year.

My Pinkerton is also a champ. I have 2 of them. One is bushy, the other grows upright. Both flower and fruit profusely every year.

Leavens hass and ardith were killed by gopher/vole combo. Same with Rio hass.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 29, 2022, 11:25:59 PM
I will try top working more green gold trees on different rootstocks.  The one i got came from atkins and i assume is on a zutano seedling.  The fruit is good but my tree sucks.  I noticed the other day the rootstock has shot up some shoots and is starting to come up through the canopy.  I need to go trim those off.  Thats not a normal thing to happen unless the top worked part has some growth issues.  This is not a new tree either, its fairly old and large.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 30, 2022, 12:27:10 AM
Regarding pinkerton, it tends to grow ok when it isnt setting fruit on an off year.  When it sets lots of fruit, it sags and gets sun burn add starts looking poor and takes time to recover from the heavy fruit loads.  This tree is not a strong grower compared to hass.  And the 3 weeks it takes to ripen is just too long. Many people dont wait long enough and then end up wasting the fruit cutting it too soon because it starts to soften after 2 weeks a little but then needs another week.  Sometimes longer.  The flavor is very nice though I think it is one of the best for flavor.  But the growth and ripening issues just knock it out of being top tier to me.  And I sometimes have some fruit that have hard spots in the flesh.  I have 2 of these trees and they both perform this way.  I really wouldnt recommend people grow it if they have limited space, I think hass and sharwil perform better and have less issues and similar quality fruits.

 :)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Surfmatt on May 30, 2022, 07:26:01 AM
Sounds like everyone has some pheno hunting to do. Drop some seeds, give the next generation some better genetics to eat/grow.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on May 30, 2022, 04:58:36 PM
Sounds like everyone has some pheno hunting to do. Drop some seeds, give the next generation some better genetics to eat/grow.

Totally agree.  If the last decade or so is any indicator, we should be searching for a new drought tolerant variety, if thatís even possible. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 30, 2022, 06:19:44 PM
Ive got a bunch of reed seedlings growing that havent flowered yet but they are pretty big.  Gray martin said to do a girdle around the base of the trees in October and they will flower the following spring.   
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Groovyfruit on May 31, 2022, 11:44:47 AM
Ive got a bunch of reed seedlings growing that havent flowered yet but they are pretty big.  Gray martin said to do a girdle around the base of the trees in October and they will flower the following spring.

I was pondering the potential of Reed seedlings-- usually I've been finding the largest Zutano or Bacon pit and they grow decently.  Do Reeds grow better than the traditional rootstocks?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 31, 2022, 12:44:22 PM
for rootstocks, zutano is good.  reed isnt as good for a rootstock in the cold weather otherwise its ok.  Im just growing them out for fruit. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on May 31, 2022, 02:17:43 PM
Last year we planted out over 60 seeds from our Don Gillogly tree in Fallbrook to use as rootstock and they are doing great.  Surprisingly, on most of the trees the older leaves from last year still look great without any tip burn and the seedlings are branching out nicely and have a good shape.  Our mother tree at home is over 15 years old and produces reliably even with our clay soil and cooler weather.  It also thrives with minimum watering, I don't water it at all from late fall to early spring and only once every couple weeks during summer.  I'm sure it would need more water in a warmer climate, but our highs are still only in the upper 60s, forecast shows high of 73 this next week. 

In March, we purchased an old avocado orchard with about 2000 Hass and Reed trees.  The water on the property has been turned off for about a year, but we have been harvesting some Hass.  Some were better than any avocado we have ever purchased.  I was surprised at how good some of them were even on neglected trees.  We also tried a couple Reed even though we knew they weren't ready yet and fruit was still okay, so looking forward to trying them in a few months.

Now that we have these mature trees, we plan on letting all the Don Gillogly seeds grow into trees to see what we get.  Looking forward to experimenting with seedlings and grafting new varieties onto some of these old trees.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: jtnguyen333 on May 31, 2022, 02:33:11 PM
How would you rate the taste of Don Gilogly?
Last year we planted out over 60 seeds from our Don Gillogly tree in Fallbrook to use as rootstock and they are doing great.  Surprisingly, on most of the trees the older leaves from last year still look great without any tip burn and the seedlings are branching out nicely and have a good shape.  Our mother tree at home is over 15 years old and produces reliably even with our clay soil and cooler weather.  It also thrives with minimum watering, I don't water it at all from late fall to early spring and only once every couple weeks during summer.  I'm sure it would need more water in a warmer climate, but our highs are still only in the upper 60s, forecast shows high of 73 this next week. 

In March, we purchased an old avocado orchard with about 2000 Hass and Reed trees.  The water on the property has been turned off for about a year, but we have been harvesting some Hass.  Some were better than any avocado we have ever purchased.  I was surprised at how good some of them were even on neglected trees.  We also tried a couple Reed even though we knew they weren't ready yet and fruit was still okay, so looking forward to trying them in a few months.

Now that we have these mature trees, we plan on letting all the Don Gillogly seeds grow into trees to see what we get.  Looking forward to experimenting with seedlings and grafting new varieties onto some of these old trees.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on May 31, 2022, 03:56:17 PM
When picked at peak ripeness it is an excellent avocado.  It recently came off patent so is becoming more available.  I first heard of it over 15 years ago from the head horticulturist at Roger's Gardens (a high end nursery in Newport Beach with a team of horticulturists and knowledgeable staff) who said it was the best tasting avocado he had ever had.  Gary Matsuoka, the owner of Laguna Hills nursery which specializes in edibles also has mentioned it's one of the best tasting.  Our friends always ask if we have extra in the spring.  There are a few qualities I would like to improve on though.  Like I mentioned it's excellent when picked at the proper time, it does not hang for months like some others after peak quality.  If it stays on the tree past prime there may be some fiber at the base of the seed.  The shape of the fruit can also be variable, if there isn't regular rain in the winter it can have a skinny neck, this year we didn't get much rain at all after December, and I don't water my trees in winter.  If it gets regular water, the fruit can be over 1 lb with a better shape.  This year they averaged about 13 oz.  It also has a small membrane near the tip of the seed that has to be removed that I haven't seen in other cultivars.  The taste is excellent though, with high oil content and the flesh does not oxidize after you cut it.  You can leave half an avo in the fridge for up to 2 days and it doesn't discolor or lose quality.  Ideally, I wish it had a deeper color, the inner flesh is pale light green so it's not as aesthetically beautiful for presentation.  I'm hoping one of the seedlings I planted will have the same taste, without the membrane and better color.  I also wonder if I will get better quality growing it in Fallbrook.  I live a couple blocks from the ocean, so it's a humid, cool microclimate for Southern California.   I think the tree would appreciate more sun and heat.  Even though it's not perfect, I do love this avocado.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 31, 2022, 04:41:53 PM
The fujikawa avocado also has a hard spot in the flesh right above the seed which needs to be removed.  Otherwise, its a stellar fruit.

Janet did you buy more land in addition to the lot in fallbrook?  You guys gonna grow your own avocados for the resturaunt?

I finished picking hass here and have started picking reeds and they arent as good as thry will be but its still tasting pretty dang good. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on May 31, 2022, 08:48:12 PM
Ive got a bunch of reed seedlings growing that havent flowered yet but they are pretty big.  Gray martin said to do a girdle around the base of the trees in October and they will flower the following spring.

I was pondering the potential of Reed seedlings-- usually I've been finding the largest Zutano or Bacon pit and they grow decently.  Do Reeds grow better than the traditional rootstocks?

I know this isn't the topic of the thread, but I wanted to comment on how fun it is growing Reed seedlings.  They usually do some quirky stuff, that's usually pretty cool.  They like to push out several root suckers, or push out multiple shoots.  Not sure if some avocado seeds can be considered polyembryonic?  Other Reed seedlings tend to grow huge leaves, even if left in the sun.  I also like Fuerte as a rootstock.  It tends to branch out very low to the seed, giving you a great chance to multigraft onto one seed.



(https://i.postimg.cc/xNfdYW3b/IMG-3340.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xNfdYW3b)
Reed seedling with multiple shoots

(https://i.postimg.cc/NLDMbjQ8/IMG-3341.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NLDMbjQ8)
Reed seedling with several root suckers growing around the pot

(https://i.postimg.cc/Thf1rDvY/IMG-3342.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Thf1rDvY)
Fuerte seedling forming two branches very low to the seed
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 31, 2022, 09:21:44 PM
Mason did you say you tried Hellen?  When is the peak season?  According to the UC list, it is rated excellent and july-october. 

I remember picking in July last year and they weren't ready.

Anyone have one of these trees care to comment?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on May 31, 2022, 11:18:19 PM
Brad, we bought another 40 acre property about 5 minutes away from the farm.  A real estate investment company had bought it in foreclosure a year ago and decided it wasn't the right investment for them so priced it to sell quickly.  It's a diamond in the rough and needs a lot of work, a lifetime of work actually, but we're really excited about it.  If you visit, you'll have to bring your bike, there's a lot of trails perfect for riding and it feels like a forest.  Many of the Reed trees are over 25 feet tall, we need to bring down the canopy to save water and make it easier to harvest.   Yes, we plan on trying to grow our own avocados and some other high cost items for the restaurants , hope to start harvesting next year. Also want to grow specialty fruit for the beer.  Any ideas on fruit that would be good for brewing?  We closed our Irvine restaurant location, today was actually our last day, but we're going to expand the brewery.  We're opening a tasting room and restaurant in downtown Carlsbad.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on May 31, 2022, 11:43:24 PM
Wow thats awesome.   8)  living your dreams and going big or going home, only live once and all that!

For beer personally I just mostly like 3 ingredients.  Malted wheat or barley, hops and yeast.  Not really into flavored beer but passionfruit, citrus, lychee, peach, raspberry are all good additives.  Marijuana terpine extracs probably would be a big seller too.  Not sure if anyone has done that one yet.  I saw a beer called terp sauce the other day at the store but didnt read what they put in it.  I think you can buy terpine extracts.  Theres certain terpines that exist not only in marijuana but also citrus and mangos and every other kind of plants.  You should try and checkout a terpine chart for some ideas.

Avocados seem to be the big cash crop if you can get your grove running good and have a good well.  Theres an old timer guy that is or was a member here that lives in fallbrook and had several groves and had it all on solar panels and well water.  He had something like 120 acres and 1000 solar panels!   He also had giant RO systems to lower the salinity of the ground water.  I guess thats how the pros do it.  Maybe you guys are neighbors.

Sounds like your grove is really awesome, I would like to come check it out some day.  Cycling sounds fun, dirt bike motorcycle would be fun too.   

Congrats and good luck with the projects!

Heres one of the terpine charts
https://www.seedcanary.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/png_20211027_113501_0000.png (https://www.seedcanary.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/png_20211027_113501_0000.png)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on May 31, 2022, 11:59:13 PM
Mason did you say you tried Hellen?  When is the peak season?  According to the UC list, it is rated excellent and july-october. 

I remember picking in July last year and they weren't ready.

Anyone have one of these trees care to comment?

Brad I had a Hellen that was picked in late September and it was fantastic.  Wanted to ask you when do you pick Nabal?  Mine start dropping from the tree in July and they are world class at that point.  The UC list says they can go until November.  I havenít had any last past August lol.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on June 01, 2022, 12:04:22 AM
Brad, we bought another 40 acre property about 5 minutes away from the farm.  A real estate investment company had bought it in foreclosure a year ago and decided it wasn't the right investment for them so priced it to sell quickly.  It's a diamond in the rough and needs a lot of work, a lifetime of work actually, but we're really excited about it.  If you visit, you'll have to bring your bike, there's a lot of trails perfect for riding and it feels like a forest.  Many of the Reed trees are over 25 feet tall, we need to bring down the canopy to save water and make it easier to harvest.   Yes, we plan on trying to grow our own avocados and some other high cost items for the restaurants , hope to start harvesting next year. Also want to grow specialty fruit for the beer.  Any ideas on fruit that would be good for brewing?  We closed our Irvine restaurant location, today was actually our last day, but we're going to expand the brewery.  We're opening a tasting room and restaurant in downtown Carlsbad.

Janet

Incredible! Congratulations! Those 25 foot tall Reeds must be beautiful.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 12:07:40 AM
I dont know how long nabal will hold on the tree.  May seems to be good here and into June.  My tree isnt old enough to know how long they will go since it hasnt made loads of fruit yet.  We had maybe 10 nabals this year and there still a few left.  Had one a week ago and it was awesome.  Reed is already good here too but will go into August and September.  Nabal seems to be about 1month ahead of reed for me. 

The nabal tree grow like beasts too, i planted a bunch of them and they grow faster than any other type and just look super strong and healthy.  Seems like a stellar variety.  Im guessing the problem is long term the trees get too big but thats just a guess.  Maybe thats why reed is more popular, they seem to be a little smaller more manageable tree. 

This picture was from 2021

(https://i.postimg.cc/LhM41KpS/20210522-101607.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhM41KpS)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 12:27:41 AM
This was a super ripe reed from end of september
(https://i.postimg.cc/G9p7z9rx/20200927-093156.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G9p7z9rx)

Some other random pics I had from last year

Jan boyce
(https://i.postimg.cc/k2hX62nY/20210128-113204.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2hX62nY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BXpv3hR0/20210303-203327.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXpv3hR0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yksNwqQj/20210322-175353.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yksNwqQj)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XrNpyM9q/20210329-184748.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XrNpyM9q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YLfCh89Q/20210407-075325.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YLfCh89Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5XPjBPm3/20210407-155848.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5XPjBPm3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qhKRdpHb/20210415-094100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhKRdpHb)

Santa clara
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Td3j60T/20210415-194121.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6Td3j60T)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8FjcthKV/20210421-162846.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FjcthKV)

Green gold
(https://i.postimg.cc/sM2ggYRZ/20210502-161915.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sM2ggYRZ)

Daily11
(https://i.postimg.cc/xNSdfB00/20210517-124553.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xNSdfB00)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fJN3DSLx/20210521-074903.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJN3DSLx)

Santa clara
(https://i.postimg.cc/67g3Syg4/received-269568358075388.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/67g3Syg4)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: kh0110 on June 01, 2022, 12:53:14 AM
...
The nabal tree grow like beasts too, i planted a bunch of them and they grow faster than any other type and just look super strong and healthy.  Seems like a stellar variety.  Im guessing the problem is long term the trees get too big but thats just a guess.  Maybe thats why reed is more popular, they seem to be a little smaller more manageable tree. 

...
[/quote]

I was told that Nabal is an alternate bearer as the tree ages. But, how do you distinguish a Nabal fruit from a Reed?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 01:14:37 AM
Pretty much all avocado trees alternate if they do a big fruit set.

I can tell the difference between a nabal tree and reed tree if the tree is in good health its obvious.  The fruit are very similar looking but nabal is very slightly more squat in shape and has a bigger nipple on top where the stem connects.  The spotting on the nabal is mkre spaced out and the skin color is more dull while still on the tree.


(https://i.postimg.cc/BXg8mZg4/20220531-221040.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXg8mZg4)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on June 01, 2022, 01:34:46 AM
Thanks Brad!  Realistically I think we're going to have to replace several acres of the avocados with more water efficient fruits.  I don't think we can afford to water 2,000 avocado trees. There was a past due water bill of $85K that had to be paid to get the water turned back on.  Fortunately we found out about it before we closed escrow. 

We don't know if we'll be able to drill wells at the orchard.  The property is really hilly and steep and we don't think the drilling equipment can make it up to the top of the property. 

We're going to save the best trees and as many trees as we can afford to water and figure out how to be as efficient as we can.  I'm thinking olives, pomegranates, figs, dragonfruit, mulberries, guavas, cherimoyas, and mangoes.  Whatever we grow, I'm good.  I'm happy to be planting, taking care of trees, growing food, and being surrounded by nature.  I'm looking forward to hosting fruit tastings in the future. 

I know you said a lot of avocado varieties are overhyped, but I can't help but want to try some of them anyway.  Especially the ones that you say taste good but have bad growth habit.  Hope you're selling scions this winter. 

That would be great if you came to check out the property, definitely bring the dirt bike motorcycle.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 01:52:04 AM
I guess I would need to see what it looks like but if you can get a bulldozer in there and make a dirt road, you can probably make a path for the drilling company.  I would think the bulldozer work and well would pay for themselves really quickly on a big farm operation.  Maybe some solar panels too.  Of course I havent seen it so I could be way off!  I know how it is people tell you do this do that with your property without seeing it first and you know some stuff just isnt going to happen for whatever reason. 

Water prices are probably the reason the grove was sold.  They are getting really out of control with the water and electric prices.  Solar panels and a well is the way to go if you can swing it.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: pagnr on June 01, 2022, 01:59:42 AM
Fruiting seasonality is another big factor not discussed.
If you have 3 or 4 excellent quality varieties, but they may all crop in the same 2 or 3 months. Or even a 6 month spread.
You may be happy ( or desperate ) for another that ripens off season to the rest.
So It is not as great as the others ?
Still passable as an Avocado, and better than store bought/ imported when prices per fruit are sky high.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 02:15:32 AM
Its pretty easy to get year round avocados here.  Just need about 3 or 4 types to pull it off.  But the ones from October until January just aren't that great.  I chopped down all the ones that fruited then and Ill eat cherimoyas instead during that time.  No one in my family wanted to eat the losers after spending the previous 6 months eating winners. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on June 01, 2022, 09:07:57 AM
I dont know how long nabal will hold on the tree.  May seems to be good here and into June.  My tree isnt old enough to know how long they will go since it hasnt made loads of fruit yet.  We had maybe 10 nabals this year and there still a few left.  Had one a week ago and it was awesome.  Reed is already good here too but will go into August and September.  Nabal seems to be about 1month ahead of reed for me. 

The nabal tree grow like beasts too, i planted a bunch of them and they grow faster than any other type and just look super strong and healthy.  Seems like a stellar variety.  Im guessing the problem is long term the trees get too big but thats just a guess.  Maybe thats why reed is more popular, they seem to be a little smaller more manageable tree. 

This picture was from 2021

(https://i.postimg.cc/LhM41KpS/20210522-101607.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhM41KpS)

Yeah theyíre aggressive growers for sure.  IĎve seen some enormous Nabal trees in the Fallbrook area.  Tall and spreading, much like Fuerte.  Definitely not the Reed growth habit.  I have some Nabal grafts on a multigrafted tree, and they outgrow the others considerably.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on June 01, 2022, 09:51:21 AM
Brad, I love the pictures with all the avocado diversity.  Wish we could of made it to your avo tasting last year.  We went to the Avocado Festival in Fallbrook at the end of April hoping to try some new varieties.  Pretty disappointing, no one was selling avocados.  Atkins nursery was there selling citrus and cherimoya and they had one 5 gallon Nabal tree but wanted $85 so we passed.  We walked the whole thing looking for something avocado related, there was one vendor selling cutting boards made from avocado wood, that was pretty much it.  Huge crowds of people, it ended up being a large street fair with vendors selling lots of "stuff" and fried foods, not our thing. 

Seems like you could fill such a niche market with all the different varieties that can't be found anywhere.  I know I would buy a box of all the diversity just to be able to taste the difference.

I wonder sometimes if those of us on this forum that spend years waiting to try fruit and look for different and diverse flavors are really rare.  Will there be a market for all the specialty fruits I want to experiment with.

Janet

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on June 01, 2022, 09:59:39 AM
Mason, most of the Don Gillogly seeds we planted sent up multiple shoots.  The seedlings have been so resilient, there were a few that got chomped by rabbits down to the ground that I thought didn't make it so turned off the water to them.  They sent up new shoots, I don't think we lost a single seedling.  We have really strong winds on the property we planted them, and they made it through the sun, hail, critters, and winds with no problems.  Not sure if it's the variety or just avocado seedlings in general.  We bought several 1 gallon grafted plants from Atkins nursery and only a couple are doing well.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Brad, I love the pictures with all the avocado diversity.  Wish we could of made it to your avo tasting last year.  We went to the Avocado Festival in Fallbrook at the end of April hoping to try some new varieties.  Pretty disappointing, no one was selling avocados.  Atkins nursery was there selling citrus and cherimoya and they had one 5 gallon Nabal tree but wanted $85 so we passed.  We walked the whole thing looking for something avocado related, there was one vendor selling cutting boards made from avocado wood, that was pretty much it.  Huge crowds of people, it ended up being a large street fair with vendors selling lots of "stuff" and fried foods, not our thing. 

Seems like you could fill such a niche market with all the different varieties that can't be found anywhere.  I know I would buy a box of all the diversity just to be able to taste the difference.

I wonder sometimes if those of us on this forum that spend years waiting to try fruit and look for different and diverse flavors are really rare.  Will there be a market for all the specialty fruits I want to experiment with.

Janet

i got bad news for you.  ive been busy chopping down all the diversity. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on June 01, 2022, 10:25:15 AM
Probably for the best with all the water it takes to grow these trees.  At least you'll still have all the winners, and I'm sure your experience is actually just saving me a lot of time and energy.  I definitely want to try the Nabal.  I remember you showing us the tree.

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 10:40:50 AM
I still kept a bunch them but many of them ended up here.  RIP  :'(

(https://i.postimg.cc/yg4MtQXS/20220601-073302.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yg4MtQXS)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: jtnguyen333 on June 01, 2022, 01:34:30 PM
Brad..can you prevent alternate bearing if you cull them on a year with big fruit set?
Pretty much all avocado trees alternate if they do a big fruit set.

I can tell the difference between a nabal tree and reed tree if the tree is in good health its obvious.  The fruit are very similar looking but nabal is very slightly more squat in shape and has a bigger nipple on top where the stem connects.  The spotting on the nabal is mkre spaced out and the skin color is more dull while still on the tree.


(https://i.postimg.cc/BXg8mZg4/20220531-221040.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXg8mZg4)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 03:17:11 PM
I think that will work but you would have to experiment for several years to figure out how much to remove.  I already do some thinning on some trees.  For instance sir prize I always thin but it still alternates and has a big load even after multiple thinnings.  You would need to be really on top of that from the beginning of summer and thin it really well.  If you still leave a lot of fruit the tree can put more energy into those and make them larger and more oil but not necessarily grow more new leaves to prevent alternating the following season.  So I guess yes if you take a lot it may work but maybe not guaranteeded.  Depends on so many factors also like health and vigor of the tree and all that...

Easier to just grow more than one tree if you have space.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on June 01, 2022, 03:43:15 PM
Mason, most of the Don Gillogly seeds we planted sent up multiple shoots.  The seedlings have been so resilient, there were a few that got chomped by rabbits down to the ground that I thought didn't make it so turned off the water to them.  They sent up new shoots, I don't think we lost a single seedling.  We have really strong winds on the property we planted them, and they made it through the sun, hail, critters, and winds with no problems.  Not sure if it's the variety or just avocado seedlings in general.  We bought several 1 gallon grafted plants from Atkins nursery and only a couple are doing well.

Janet

Do you know if any of the shoots are a true genetic clone of the mother tree?  Like does anyone know if avocado seeds can be polyembryonic?  After looking at some Don Gillogly fruit, I'm gonna assume that it has mostly Mexican genetics, which in my experience produce some of the toughest seedlings.  Interesting to know that even after you turned the water off, they still sent up new shoots.  That's pretty cool. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 01, 2022, 04:22:13 PM
I think they are just suckers not multiple different trees.  All avocado seeds do this.  If you pinch off a stem they always send up new suckers. Or some seeds just send out multiple suckers.

When you look at a mango seed that has multiple embryos, they are visible and the seed can be broken into several seperate parts.  I dont think avocados are the same. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Itay Gazit on June 01, 2022, 07:24:19 PM
Brad, I love the pictures with all the avocado diversity.  Wish we could of made it to your avo tasting last year.  We went to the Avocado Festival in Fallbrook at the end of April hoping to try some new varieties.  Pretty disappointing, no one was selling avocados.  Atkins nursery was there selling citrus and cherimoya and they had one 5 gallon Nabal tree but wanted $85 so we passed.  We walked the whole thing looking for something avocado related, there was one vendor selling cutting boards made from avocado wood, that was pretty much it.  Huge crowds of people, it ended up being a large street fair with vendors selling lots of "stuff" and fried foods, not our thing. 

Seems like you could fill such a niche market with all the different varieties that can't be found anywhere.  I know I would buy a box of all the diversity just to be able to taste the difference.

I wonder sometimes if those of us on this forum that spend years waiting to try fruit and look for different and diverse flavors are really rare.  Will there be a market for all the specialty fruits I want to experiment with.

Janet

Hi Janet,

I believe there is a market. I recently bought 5 acres in Bonsall with a goal to grow and sell specialty fruits. It will probably take me several years to grow these different fruits, I'm passionate about it.

Itay
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on June 02, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Itay, congratulations on your property!  I'm happy for you and wish you the best of luck. 

Brad advised me a while ago to plant as many seedlings as I could and let them grow in the ground and then graft after a season of growth.  I wanted a little head start and bought several grafted trees anyway even though I knew he was right.  For a majority of the grafted trees I planted, it was a waste of money and it's evident the seedlings will outgrow them in a couple years. 

Especially because Brad has been making the genetics available, it definitely makes the best sense for growing healthy trees and as a bonus it's the most economical.

The other challenging thing when buying trees is not getting the cultivar you are paying for.  I went to the CRFG plant sale about a month ago because Julie Fink had many trees for sale.  I noticed that on the plant list they would label a tree Sharwil for instance, and then there would be a different tree as Sharwil grafted.  There were only a handful of trees listed as grafted.  I realized that most of the trees must be seedlings, yet people that were buying them thought they were getting named cultivars.  That's probably how a lot of mislabeled trees get passed around. 

Janet
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Itay Gazit on June 02, 2022, 07:32:27 PM
Thank you Janet

Yes, growing seedlings is important; not only for Avocados but for most of the stuff we want to grow: Mangoes, Cherimoyas, etc...

Itay
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on June 02, 2022, 08:21:27 PM
Itay stop by if you want once you move down here.  You going to live at the place in Bonsal?  We have another member here thats a super nice guy that lives in Bonsal.  I checked out his orchard and its super nice.  Lots of chickens and all kinds of fruit trees. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Itay Gazit on June 06, 2022, 03:38:39 AM
Thx Brad! I plan to build a house and then move there in a few years.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Reedo on June 07, 2022, 03:23:23 PM
Lets talk about bacon avocado.  I have a huge bacon tree that makes hundreds of fruit.  The tree is beatiful and performs awesome.  The problem is it grows so large and makes so many fruit I cant use even a fraction of them.  And people dont really want to buy it.  So what to do with it?  Its not that I dont like bacon, its just not very practical.  So you can see the problems with some of these isnt always it grows poorly or doesnt produce, its just how many bacon or zutanos can you sell?  Zutano is the same way.  Super vigorous, makes hundreds of fruit, but no one wants them.  If they stayed somewhat small then I wouldnt mind keeping one around but these things turn in monsters.

I have one large Bacon that has been producing several hundred fruit a year. It's a marathon of guacamole eating. I use the seeds as rootstock, and have had very good (anecdotal) results in my area. The amount of abuse and neglect they can take is surprising.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on August 03, 2022, 08:34:26 PM
I just wanted to throw it out here that although lamb is a great growing tree and makes loads of fruit, the fruit just are not that great.  Very annoying to have to top work so many trees.  Especially ones that are patented and hyped up. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: vin1 on August 06, 2022, 03:37:49 AM
This thread is a nice break from the norm. GEM has been so heavily hyped and after trying the fruit many times, I've never seen the reason based on flavor and texture. As for Nabal, I've never had one that was better than a prime Reed.

In terms of Malama, I've had subpar growth from my 2 year old tree from Epicenter. It was bent at a 90 degree angle when I bought it, which I suspect was due to the scion they used. I straightened it over time through staking and it is finally starting to fill out over the past few months. I've also grafted a scion onto a Sharwil on Dusa to see if it grows better on a clonal rootstock.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on August 06, 2022, 09:46:46 AM
This thread is a nice break from the norm. GEM has been so heavily hyped and after trying the fruit many times, I've never seen the reason based on flavor and texture.
So you're saying that GEM fruit is definitely inferior to original Hass?  For all the effort they've put into creating an improved Hass, they just haven't been successful?!  But isn't GEM supposed to replace Hass commercially?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on August 06, 2022, 01:14:38 PM
i think you are right, reed is slightly better than nabal. 

GEM, lamb, sir prize are all inferrior to regular hass and gwen.  Just my honest opinion.

GEM is a nice tree and makes loads of fruit.  BUT once the fruit sits on your counter and gets soft they look terrible and then you eat it and oil level is just not there and the flesh color is slighty off.  Soes not have the same nice green color of hass.

im going to do a video where I show these trees and I chop them all down. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on August 06, 2022, 02:43:51 PM
im going to do a video where I show these trees and I chop them all down.
  Woo-hoo, sounds like fun!
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 12:13:39 PM
Just had to rant about this...  Sorry in advance  :D  I noticed theres so many overhyped avocado types.  I tried growing as many as possible and found most to be uninspiring.  Either the flavor is not there, or the tree has bad growth habits, or some other problem.  Many of these are hyped up by the UC breeding program or by the grounds keepers at the UC Irvine grove.  And some have just been around forever and for some reason people keep propogating them even though theres much better options  ???

My chainsaw has been getting a real workout lately.  Heres a short list of ones that have had a date with the chipper.


Ardith
Mexicola
Mexicola Grande
Stewart
Holiday
Daily11
Jim Bacon
Sir Prize
Jan Boyce
Fuerte
Bacon
Zutano
GEM
Party time
Coleen Davis


And theres more that will likely be chopped down and turned into saw dust after I waste a few more seasons on them as well !  ;D  :P

Fuerte is a classic. I thought people generally liked that variety. Why don't you like it? Here in my part of Peru it is the only other grafted option besides Hass that the local nurseries provide.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 12:27:30 PM
Taste wise I can't imagine how Hass could be beat.  When I got a box from you, Brad, they were all equally excellent I couldn't really distinguish.  I don't grow these so I don't know about their productivity, pest resistance, etc.

I feel same way about the mandarins available... they are basically perfect.  If they were any sweeter they would be gross.

Hass is the best all around tree for this area.  Highly productive.  High oil content, strong growth, good size fruit, hard shell, peels easily, hangs a long time.  Definitely a reason its grown here despite some of the negativity you may hear online.  Those people have likely not had a fully ripened hass from CA.  I ate 2 of them today and they were very ripe and tasted amazing!  Definitely a winner.  If all you are getting is junk hass from mexico, thats another story!!! :D

That said, sharwil, green gold, reed, nabal, all have as good or better flavor.  But hass is awesome no doubt.

The only thing I don't like about hass is the skin. It can be brittle and gritty. Sometimes when you cut an avocado you can introduce the shell grit into the flesh. I can't remember if that was ever a problem from backyard tree-ripened fruits or just a problem with poorly produced store-bought.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 01:01:13 PM
Last year we planted out over 60 seeds from our Don Gillogly tree in Fallbrook to use as rootstock and they are doing great.  Surprisingly, on most of the trees the older leaves from last year still look great without any tip burn and the seedlings are branching out nicely and have a good shape.  Our mother tree at home is over 15 years old and produces reliably even with our clay soil and cooler weather.  It also thrives with minimum watering, I don't water it at all from late fall to early spring and only once every couple weeks during summer.  I'm sure it would need more water in a warmer climate, but our highs are still only in the upper 60s, forecast shows high of 73 this next week. 

In March, we purchased an old avocado orchard with about 2000 Hass and Reed trees.  The water on the property has been turned off for about a year, but we have been harvesting some Hass.  Some were better than any avocado we have ever purchased.  I was surprised at how good some of them were even on neglected trees.  We also tried a couple Reed even though we knew they weren't ready yet and fruit was still okay, so looking forward to trying them in a few months.

Now that we have these mature trees, we plan on letting all the Don Gillogly seeds grow into trees to see what we get.  Looking forward to experimenting with seedlings and grafting new varieties onto some of these old trees.

Janet

The water was off for a year?! Say what?! Are you intentionally dry farming avocados in southern California? Good luck with that. I'm amazed you even had some fruit.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 01:36:03 PM
Brad, I love the pictures with all the avocado diversity.  Wish we could of made it to your avo tasting last year.  We went to the Avocado Festival in Fallbrook at the end of April hoping to try some new varieties.  Pretty disappointing, no one was selling avocados.  Atkins nursery was there selling citrus and cherimoya and they had one 5 gallon Nabal tree but wanted $85 so we passed.  We walked the whole thing looking for something avocado related, there was one vendor selling cutting boards made from avocado wood, that was pretty much it.  Huge crowds of people, it ended up being a large street fair with vendors selling lots of "stuff" and fried foods, not our thing. 

Seems like you could fill such a niche market with all the different varieties that can't be found anywhere.  I know I would buy a box of all the diversity just to be able to taste the difference.

I wonder sometimes if those of us on this forum that spend years waiting to try fruit and look for different and diverse flavors are really rare.  Will there be a market for all the specialty fruits I want to experiment with.

Janet

When you go to an avocado festival but there aren't any avocados... Maybe it really is the end of the world.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 01:38:10 PM
I still kept a bunch them but many of them ended up here.  RIP  :'(

(https://i.postimg.cc/yg4MtQXS/20220601-073302.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yg4MtQXS)

Great mulch for the winners!
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 01:46:00 PM
i think you are right, reed is slightly better than nabal. 

GEM, lamb, sir prize are all inferrior to regular hass and gwen.  Just my honest opinion.

GEM is a nice tree and makes loads of fruit.  BUT once the fruit sits on your counter and gets soft they look terrible and then you eat it and oil level is just not there and the flesh color is slighty off.  Soes not have the same nice green color of hass.

im going to do a video where I show these trees and I chop them all down.

I definitely need you to come do a tasting in ten years or so when all my seedlings are producing. You're like a restaurant critic, but instead of restaurants it's just avocados that you criticize.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on August 07, 2022, 01:53:12 PM
i think you are right, reed is slightly better than nabal. 

GEM, lamb, sir prize are all inferrior to regular hass and gwen.  Just my honest opinion.

GEM is a nice tree and makes loads of fruit.  BUT once the fruit sits on your counter and gets soft they look terrible and then you eat it and oil level is just not there and the flesh color is slighty off.  Soes not have the same nice green color of hass.

im going to do a video where I show these trees and I chop them all down.

I definitely need you to come do a tasting in ten years or so when all my seedlings are producing. You're like a restaurant critic, but instead of restaurants it's just avocados that you criticize.
RT ticket to Peru included?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: agroventuresperu on August 07, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
i think you are right, reed is slightly better than nabal. 

GEM, lamb, sir prize are all inferrior to regular hass and gwen.  Just my honest opinion.

GEM is a nice tree and makes loads of fruit.  BUT once the fruit sits on your counter and gets soft they look terrible and then you eat it and oil level is just not there and the flesh color is slighty off.  Soes not have the same nice green color of hass.

im going to do a video where I show these trees and I chop them all down.

I definitely need you to come do a tasting in ten years or so when all my seedlings are producing. You're like a restaurant critic, but instead of restaurants it's just avocados that you criticize.
RT ticket to Peru included?

If I win the lottery.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on August 07, 2022, 09:29:29 PM
Just had to rant about this...  Sorry in advance  :D  I noticed theres so many overhyped avocado types.  I tried growing as many as possible and found most to be uninspiring.  Either the flavor is not there, or the tree has bad growth habits, or some other problem.  Many of these are hyped up by the UC breeding program or by the grounds keepers at the UC Irvine grove.  And some have just been around forever and for some reason people keep propogating them even though theres much better options  ???

My chainsaw has been getting a real workout lately.  Heres a short list of ones that have had a date with the chipper.


Ardith
Mexicola
Mexicola Grande
Stewart
Holiday
Daily11
Jim Bacon
Sir Prize
Jan Boyce
Fuerte
Bacon
Zutano
GEM
Party time
Coleen Davis


And theres more that will likely be chopped down and turned into saw dust after I waste a few more seasons on them as well !  ;D  :P

Fuerte is a classic. I thought people generally liked that variety. Why don't you like it? Here in my part of Peru it is the only other grafted option besides Hass that the local nurseries provide.

fuerte tastes pretty good but the skin is thin and the tree is massive.  And it has sporatic fruit set here.  it can set tons of fruit one year then go many years little to no fruit.  I think hass is better in every regard.  just my opinion.  Theres a reason they are no longer grown commercially here. 

sometimes its the tree and fruiting habit etc, sometimes its the fruit thats the problem.  Fuertes problems have more to do with the tree than the fruit. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: CA Hockey on August 25, 2022, 04:54:55 PM
Green gold is fantastic.

It's like Hass but better for me and later season. This is the first year I leave them on so long and they are still good through end of August.

The fruit are larger than Hass,  the seed is bigger too but the seed:flesh ratio is favorable. It has a heavy fruit set every year. My Hass will alternate bear if it sets too heavily one year while the green gold is reliably a heavy producer.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Diospyros on September 05, 2022, 04:37:43 PM
Just had to rant about this...  Sorry in advance  :D  I noticed theres so many overhyped avocado types.  I tried growing as many as possible and found most to be uninspiring.  Either the flavor is not there, or the tree has bad growth habits, or some other problem.  Many of these are hyped up by the UC breeding program or by the grounds keepers at the UC Irvine grove.  And some have just been around forever and for some reason people keep propogating them even though theres much better options  ???

My chainsaw has been getting a real workout lately.  Heres a short list of ones that have had a date with the chipper.


Ardith
Mexicola
Mexicola Grande
Stewart
Holiday
Daily11
Jim Bacon
Sir Prize
Jan Boyce
Fuerte
Bacon
Zutano
GEM
Party time
Coleen Davis


And theres more that will likely be chopped down and turned into saw dust after I waste a few more seasons on them as well !  ;D  :P

Fuerte is a classic. I thought people generally liked that variety. Why don't you like it? Here in my part of Peru it is the only other grafted option besides Hass that the local nurseries provide.

fuerte tastes pretty good but the skin is thin and the tree is massive.  And it has sporatic fruit set here.  it can set tons of fruit one year then go many years little to no fruit.  I think hass is better in every regard.  just my opinion.  Theres a reason they are no longer grown commercially here. 

sometimes its the tree and fruiting habit etc, sometimes its the fruit thats the problem.  Fuertes problems have more to do with the tree than the fruit.

I heard some Fuerte trees hardly produce. May be some clone that was propagated around. Some people even tried grafting A type varieties onto it to help with the pollination but nothing works...
Fuerte is nice though...

Anyone ever tried Maluma?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 06, 2022, 05:42:02 PM
Wow that's quite the shit list, I'm growing some of the ones that made it on the shit list, I hope in my area I don't come up with the same results, but I'm much further north and inland and my soil is way different, who knows perhaps it will make a difference only time will tell, I will make sure I plant some on your good list.Does this mean discounted scion prices if I show up with your chainsaw in hand ?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 06, 2022, 07:26:49 PM
lamb also on the shit list.  it has fibers and they turn dark if the fruit is picked late or left on the counter too long(which isnt that long).  Super annoyed with this tree.  Annoying because it grows and produces well but the fruit is kind of trash.  Its not as bad if picked earlier but then theres other better options.  The only thing it really has going for it is it can be passed off as hass and the packing house can make a quick buck.  You wont be getting repeat customers with this one if they are buying direct. 

Its definitely got to go...

(https://i.postimg.cc/dDs9qLw7/49355.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDs9qLw7)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 06, 2022, 07:29:42 PM
Reed on the other hand still looking pristine and can sit on the counter forever, ha g on the tree forever...  no black mess inside. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/LnLr1xhT/20220823-093124.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnLr1xhT)
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 06, 2022, 07:32:57 PM
Green gold is fantastic.

It's like Hass but better for me and later season. This is the first year I leave them on so long and they are still good through end of August.

The fruit are larger than Hass,  the seed is bigger too but the seed:flesh ratio is favorable. It has a heavy fruit set every year. My Hass will alternate bear if it sets too heavily one year while the green gold is reliably a heavy producer.

Post some pics of that tree and fruit.  I swear it doesnt sound like the same strain I got.  Is yours from Atkins?  My tree gets droopy from the fruit and then gets sunburn.  The fruit are also so high in Oil by May that thry start to get dry and cheesy almost.  It is really good but I dont think they will hang into August here.  The fruit on mine have a unique look and leave a little bit of fuzzy layer on the seed. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Bush2Beach on September 07, 2022, 10:39:59 AM
I have been to a bunch of fruit specific festivals and those fruits were not in attendance.
Mango festival in Kona had no mangoís to buy or eat just crafts and BS, same at the Fairchild mango fest I went to , no mangoís to eat.
I been to an Avocado festival that had no Avocado dishes, vendors or Avocadoís in sight, but lots of craft booths.
I have a fair amount of gripes regarding nonsensical things in life but this one really hits a nerve.





Brad, I love the pictures with all the avocado diversity.  Wish we could of made it to your avo tasting last year.  We went to the Avocado Festival in Fallbrook at the end of April hoping to try some new varieties.  Pretty disappointing, no one was selling avocados.  Atkins nursery was there selling citrus and cherimoya and they had one 5 gallon Nabal tree but wanted $85 so we passed.  We walked the whole thing looking for something avocado related, there was one vendor selling cutting boards made from avocado wood, that was pretty much it.  Huge crowds of people, it ended up being a large street fair with vendors selling lots of "stuff" and fried foods, not our thing. 

Seems like you could fill such a niche market with all the different varieties that can't be found anywhere.  I know I would buy a box of all the diversity just to be able to taste the difference.

I wonder sometimes if those of us on this forum that spend years waiting to try fruit and look for different and diverse flavors are really rare.  Will there be a market for all the specialty fruits I want to experiment with.

Janet

When you go to an avocado festival but there aren't any avocados... Maybe it really is the end of the world.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: K-Rimes on September 07, 2022, 01:45:45 PM
Brad do you have any complaints with certain cultivars being more likely to get burnt leaves with high heat? I know this last week was exceptionally hot, but damn, my avos got beat up. Sir Prize shrivelled up completely. Hass and Lamb did ok.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: yimnvs on September 07, 2022, 02:58:13 PM
Brad do you have any complaints with certain cultivars being more likely to get burnt leaves with high heat? I know this last week was exceptionally hot, but damn, my avos got beat up. Sir Prize shrivelled up completely. Hass and Lamb did ok.

My more matured avocado trees(3 years +) didnt get any damage at all, not even the new growth. However, my younger trees planted this year and potted ones got burnt. So age and being in ground matters too.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 07, 2022, 03:20:41 PM
Some types are more heat intolerant than others.  Sir prize mostly gets burnt wood from drooping under the weight of the fruit is what I have seen.  But yeah that one always looks like crap. 

Jan boyce also gets nailed by heat.

Water water water....   My stuff seems like its doing ok.  I am watering everyday or every other day now and its over 100 everyday.  This heat sucks. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on September 07, 2022, 06:04:47 PM
Even in Florida some varieties are more sun and heat tolerant than others.  My Monroe has thrived this summer, whereas the Day hasn't grown an inch and many of its leaves look bleached (a little yellow).
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: MasonG31 on September 07, 2022, 06:28:07 PM
Iíve noticed Reed and Nabal seem to handle the heat pretty well compared to other varieties. Also Fuerte.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 08, 2022, 12:10:45 AM
Yeah i went out in the orchard today and the reeds and nabals are looking good.  Jan boyce was trashed.  I need to top work all the jan boyce and sir prize trees.  So many trees to top work...  Total PITA. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: JCorte on September 08, 2022, 07:05:20 AM
When you cut back your Jan Boyce or others with good tasting fruit, keep me in mind for scions.  I can't help it... I still want to trial and taste everything even though you're probably right in your assessments and will save me time and energy. 

Janet

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 08, 2022, 10:53:52 PM
I'm surprised  Ardith made the bad list, I watched a YouTube video that epicenter made today and Ardith won the taste test,but can't remember if 50 avo kinds were in the taste test or 50 people were on the panel of tasters.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 09, 2022, 12:43:12 PM
I think commercial farmers are planting a lot of gem now for 2 main reasons,first the tree tends to set fruit out of sun inside canopy and 2 with high priced picking cost it save farmers alot of money being a smaller tree, also farmers are planting much closer than hass trees,some will plant as close as 6 to 8 feet apart. Some experts also say gem takes the heat and cold slightly better than Hass but I don't know if they are guessing or if true, almost any kind have good and bad qualities depending alot in what climates they are planting in.Brad has some great insights in what has worked well for him.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 09, 2022, 02:26:45 PM
Ive done side by side taste tests with ardith and reed and lamb several times and it always ends in last place.  The oil level and taste is never as good as reed.  So for me theres really no point to growing it.  I rather eat reeds period.   Ardith takes forever to get the oil level up and then when they are almost good, they fall off the tree.  I chainsawed that tree doen and have 0 regrets. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 09, 2022, 02:36:51 PM
I think commercial farmers are planting a lot of gem now for 2 main reasons,first the tree tends to set fruit out of sun inside canopy and 2 with high priced picking cost it save farmers alot of money being a smaller tree, also farmers are planting much closer than hass trees,some will plant as close as 6 to 8 feet apart. Some experts also say gem takes the heat and cold slightly better than Hass but I don't know if they are guessing or if true, almost any kind have good and bad qualities depending alot in what climates they are planting in.Brad has some great insights in what has worked well for him.

Thats exactly why they are growing GEM.  Its a nice compact tree that makes lots of fruit that can be passed off as hass. 

I noticed you didn't mention that it has superior flavor or oil level.  Because it doesnt.  So theres that.  If you are going for quantity over quality, go for it.  Grow some lambs too...  (Thats not directed at you, just a general statement to make the point).  The most rediculous part is that the breeding program used gwen to develop these sub par hass imposters.  Gwen is an excellent fruit, the only problem is they cant pass it off as hass because the skin isnt as black.  So what do they do?  Plant thousands of gwen seeds until an offspring has black skin and high yields and good enough flavor and pawn it off as hass.  Its absurd.  What they should do is stop with their obsession with black avocado skins and sell what actually tastes good(gwen, sharwil, etc).  But no, that would make too much sense.   ::)

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 09, 2022, 03:09:57 PM
By the way, I know people dont like hearing that about GEM they say it tastes very similar to hass.  Ive eaten enough of them and had them early and way late into the season and they just are not as good as hass. They have ripening issues, grit in the skin, off color flesh, and lower oil and less nuttiness than hass or gwen.  Its just not as good.  You really need to wait really late into the season before they even start getting anywhere close to a regular hass.  In May regular hass is prime here.  For GEM, it needs to wait until late June or July to peak.  And at that time, I still rate it lower than a hass or gwen.  In fact I like gwen way better, its strange gwen isn't marketed.  I think if given the choice, consumers would agree. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: johnb51 on September 09, 2022, 04:02:55 PM
What they should do is stop with their obsession with black avocado skins and sell what actually tastes good.  But no, that would make too much sense.   ::)
Mango lovers are so lucky to have had Gary Zill select not for looks but for superior flavor instead! ;D
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 09, 2022, 04:41:14 PM
I can't speak first hand as I've never had a Ardith so not sure why panel thought it was number 1 in the taste test, maybe the Hass they were comparing it too was a early picked Hass out of a gorcery store who knows hard to say, I do want to grow a few Hass and Gwen down the road to compare for myself, on that same taste test Boony Doon was rated as number 2 but few people even have Boony Doon trees, I heard they are cold hardy trees but small fruit and large seed. I like Bacon and Zutano for taste so I must be werd, they would fire me if I was on a taste rating panel.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 09, 2022, 05:04:48 PM
I have a small bad list so far that I'm sure it will get bigger, no Holiday,Wilma, little Cado or Mexicola will be grown.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 09, 2022, 05:27:44 PM
 Brad what are qualities of Fujikawa tree both the good and bad, is fruit like a Hass or what's it like ?Are you top working your stumps in the spring turning them all into Hass ?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 09, 2022, 05:51:38 PM
Fujika is full guatemalan like nabal.  The tree grows well and sets fruit well and thry are earlier than nabal and reed.  Fruit tastes nice but has a bad spot at the tip of the seed that has to be removed.  Thats the main flaw.  Has a small bad spot in the top of the seed cavity.  Otherwise I think its pretty nice.  The fruit are a bit on the big side.  More than you need for one sitting.  It makes good guacamole.  Its not quite as nice as nabal or reed but close and the tree grows well.  I think its pretty good.  Im not going to plant a bunch of them but Im not chopping the 2 or 3 I have down either.

Yeah I top work the stumps in january with whatever I need more of.  Probably some more gwens and carmens this time. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Bush2Beach on September 10, 2022, 10:16:23 AM
Maybe Ardith likes growing 1 mile from the coast in 60 degree fog year round and that makes the fruit taste better , or perhaps a geriatric panel of Avocado noobs  . Bonny Doon is most likely a Hass seedling and nothing special. Why is Bonny Doon cold hardy ? Itís not, not exposed to freezing or cold temperatures ever. Few people have them because it was selected by an Avo nursery that doesnít keep stock  on it and/or just takes custom orders for it. i have it in a good spot and it grows like crap and is finally fruiting , badly, on year 10 . The mother tree fruits are okay.
Bradía un biased observations can save folks alot of learning experiences and just plant the goods.
 
I can't speak first hand as I've never had a Ardith so not sure why panel thought it was number 1 in the taste test, maybe the Hass they were comparing it too was a early picked Hass out of a gorcery store who knows hard to say, I do want to grow a few Hass and Gwen down the road to compare for myself, on that same taste test Boony Doon was rated as number 2 but few people even have Boony Doon trees, I heard they are cold hardy trees but small fruit and large seed. I like Bacon and Zutano for taste so I must be werd, they would fire me if I was on a taste rating panel.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: ScottR on September 10, 2022, 11:07:29 AM
I have a Ardith and Bonny Doon tree actually many Bonny Doon trees they just aren't happy here in Arroyo Grande close to coast. Ardith has been a very slow grower for me has been set back my hard freezes so don't know yet if it will come around or not. green gold is another one along with Kona Sharwil they just refuse to ever fruit. A big part of problem is tempertures at flowering times can be to cool for avocados to flower expressing both sexes during day and stay male too long. At least that is the thoughts of  Freddy Menge at Epicenter Nursery who gave a talk one year at CRFG-conference.
And I seem to br noticing that happening here close distance from coast maybe 3-4 miles as crow flys.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: CA Hockey on September 10, 2022, 11:26:34 AM
My green gold is a beast. Got it from epicenter.

My nishikawa was a dud. Grows great but never flowered. I pruned it heavily last September and surprise it flowered and is holding fruit. Not as many as a tree of its size can hold, but it's better than nothing. I'll hard prune again this year and see if I can continue the trend.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 10, 2022, 09:22:36 PM
My green gold is a beast. Got it from epicenter.

My nishikawa was a dud. Grows great but never flowered. I pruned it heavily last September and surprise it flowered and is holding fruit. Not as many as a tree of its size can hold, but it's better than nothing. I'll hard prune again this year and see if I can continue the trend.

Post a pic of the green gold fruits and tree.  It seems like its not the same tree Atkins is selling.

I put a photo of a fruit off my atkins tree back on page 3 or 4 of this thread.  Does it look the same?

The fruit are really high oil and are over ripe here by May.  Tree sags from the fruit load and gets sun burns here.  I like the fruit but the way the tree performs is keeping me from grafting more. 

If yours is something different, I would like to try and grow one.  Still have 50 trees or more that need top working. 

Nishikawa grows OK not great and flowers very little and sets not much fruit here.  Its looking like a waste of time.  The tree is big enough to hold a good load but it only set a couole fruit this year.  Its kind of a lanky grower too.  Not that great of a shape or growth habit.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 11, 2022, 02:21:47 PM
Good feedback for Nishikawa, I'm on the fence if I should plant some or not, for sure planting Reed and some others, a guy in Gilroy area has a round one a little bigger fruit than a reed I'll try that also as I like the big round ones.Brad are you cutting out your lamb hass also, I'm not sure I will plant any more lamb I only have 2 in ground now.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 11, 2022, 02:25:17 PM
Brad so does that mean the group you got from HI never did that great? nothing ever stood out for you ?
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 11, 2022, 11:58:16 PM
Lamb, yeah I think its got to go.  Gwen or GEM are better I think.  Its a nice tree but the fruit is pretty mediocre.  No one in my house will eat them since we have reeds at the same time.  Ive eaten a ton of lambs over the years and just never really thought much of them. 

Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: spaugh on September 12, 2022, 12:00:25 AM
Brad so does that mean the group you got from HI never did that great? nothing ever stood out for you ?

Theres a few decent ones.  A bunch of losers too.  I think its mostly the west indian hybrids just dont grow that well here but who knows.  Yamagata and fujikawa are doing well.   The rest seem pretty worthless. 
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Bush2Beach on September 12, 2022, 01:21:46 PM

I agree with your assessment on GG and Sharwil, I doubt other Kona Avoís would want to flower or fruit either.
What stumps me a bit is why the grafted Bonny Doon treeís are doing poorly when they are in the same conditions as the mother tree.
Could it be root stock?
I know they used A batch of Duke that some of my treeís were on and also Bacon for rootstock.
I bought like 6 Avocado treeís from them 10 years ago and they have all either died or do not fruit.
I have grafted some like Jan Boyce onto mature treeís and they grow normally.

I have a Ardith and Bonny Doon tree actually many Bonny Doon trees they just aren't happy here in Arroyo Grande close to coast. Ardith has been a very slow grower for me has been set back my hard freezes so don't know yet if it will come around or not. green gold is another one along with Kona Sharwil they just refuse to ever fruit. A big part of problem is tempertures at flowering times can be to cool for avocados to flower expressing both sexes during day and stay male too long. At least that is the thoughts of  Freddy Menge at Epicenter Nursery who gave a talk one year at CRFG-conference.
And I seem to br noticing that happening here close distance from coast maybe 3-4 miles as crow flys.
Title: Re: Overhyped avocados
Post by: Avoman on September 12, 2022, 05:41:00 PM
Brad any fruit yet on your Yamagata is it a fast grower ? Large, healthy ,full, tight leaves ? Besides the other version of green gold are you going to try any more diiferant kinds or just focus on your stumps, do you sell your excess fruit on internet or farmers markets ? How many Nabal fruit do you get;a year and what price can they sell for at a farmers market ? Do you graft directly on your stumps or is grafting on a sucker on the stump as good ?