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Messages - Francis_Eric

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for normal grapes I always used hardwood

so you know they say for muscadine soft wood is good (if you do try)

Just warning you Muscadine grapes are hard to start from cuttings
most people air layer

Maybe if someone has a grape they can air layer now.

Wondering which of the Florida pawpaw relatives taste good and are worth growing for fruit. Any recommendations?

I would say for dwarf pawpaw if taste do not swallow to see how you react.

Petersons pawpaw mentioned a guy that got sick , and threw up with other symptoms .

eat the weeds wrote about pawpaw

( I thought he said some guy really liked Big flower paw )
maybe it was steve brill (forger )

(some more hybrids ) ( this botanical explorer site is hard to find even if you know his name Delaney)

BOTX 4 - AUG 2010:
[Article 1 of 5]
Kris R. DeLaney

ABSTRACT:  Asimina manasota DeLaney, a new species endemic to longleaf pine and turkey oak sandhills associated with the upper Manatee River, upper Myakka River, and Myakka Head regions of Hardee, Manatee, and Sarasota counties, is diagnosed, described, illustrated, and depicted. It is compared to A. angustifolia Raf., and its range, rarity, extinction risks, and conservation concerns are discussed. Five natural hybrids of Asimina are also described, including: A. Xkralii DeLaney, a hybrid of A. incana and A. pygmea, from Marion County; A. Xbethanyensis DeLaney, a hybrid of A. manasota and A. reticulata, from Manatee County; A. Xcolorata DeLaney, a hybrid of A. obovata and A. pygmea, from Polk County; A. Xoboreticulata DeLaney, a hybrid of A. obovata and A. reticulata, from Highlands County; and A. Xpeninsularis DeLaney, a hybrid of A. parviflora and A. reticulata, from Hardee County.

Annonaceae, Asimina, natural hybrid, pawpaw, endemic, endangered, longleaf pine and turkey oak, sandhill, high pine, xeric upland, Myakka River, Manatee River, Hardee County, Manatee County, Sarasota County, Florida, USA

Interesting to see that there are so many Asimina species in Florida. I do not think people, even rare fruit growers, realize there are so many. But, without also memorizing the identification keys for each species, just memorizing the Asimina species' names seems like it might not be the most useful thing for finding, collecting, and growing plants in this genus.

To be honest maybe the whole post isn't done the best sleep deprivation does that.

I also just posted quickly thinking if I do not post now I never will.

(I normally use cal photos for plant pictures here they do not have much,

you could say wolly pawpaw is easy to learn parviflora /dwarf  big flower 4 petal paw  just by the latin name though...

I can say this much about if your not sure the leaves at least for the northern pawpaw have a bell flower smell.
(people can mistake them for buckeye trees from a distance , and up close too.)

I have more links with photos
but little time now

I am not sure

I guess you can rule some things out

Also it has a lot of poke a dots on tree bark or

lenticels on tree bark

Have you ever saw this site
it shows you to look at key features

See Old link below
Man did they do a Number on that site
It sucks now

)internet archive  or way back machine

(if does not work copy.paste this into way back machine.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Wild Paw Paw
« on: June 17, 2022, 08:53:21 PM »
Here is whole thing if you'd like
(see edit here as well)


greetings urban farmers gardeners and
healthy food visionaries Greg Peterson
here and welcome to the 280 ninth
episode of the urban farm podcast where
three days a week we work together
educating and inspiring you to become
part of your food revolution nature
doesn't waste energy and by using these
natural cycles to work in our favor we
can harvest both plants and fish let us
teach you how just text grow fish two
three three four four four or visit I
want to grow fish calm and you'll
receive our free webinar on how to grow
your own fish power garden today on our
podcast we have someone who wants
everyone to appreciate a very special
fruit we're talking to Andrew Moore all
about the pawpaw fruit
Andrew grew up in Lake Wales Florida
just south of the paw Paw's native range
he is a writer and gardener and now
lives in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
his first book Papa in search of
America's forgotten fruit was published
through Chelsey Greene in 2015 as a
hardback and this year as a paperback it
was also nominated for the James Beard
Foundation Award congratulations by the
way on that welcome to the show today
Andrew thanks so much Greg thanks for
having me on the podcast absolutely I'm
a big big believer in planting fruit
trees and I know like zilch about a paw
paw so I'm very excited to talk to you
so I shared a bit about you can you fill
in the blanks for us and share more
about the path you took to get where
you're at today yeah so the path I took
today being someone who can talk for
hours and hours on paw paw started I'll
give you the the the long middle short
story perfect eye I moved to Pittsburgh
in 2009 from Florida experienced the
first winter of my adult life and then
in 2010 was introduced to paw Paw's at a
pop-up festival believe it or not oh wow
and yeah and so I had gone through my
first winter ever and I was in Ohio at
this paw paw festival and was introduced
to these temperate fruit trees growing
in Ohio that looked like mangoes
and tasted like tropical fruit you'd
have in Florida and I could not believe
that there was such an interesting fruit
growing in in this climate Wow and
that's really what set me on this path
was just this is really curiosity for
this fruit I just had so many questions
mhm and was was very interested in it
and then you know as we as we talked
today I guess I'll unveil some of that
as I investigated the fruit in the tree
it really represented to me a crossroads
of so many interesting things of
American history and ecology and so on
and so I devoted chunks of the next five
years to working on this book and and
that's where we are today Wow
alright so what is a paw paw
yeah let's start there so the the paw
paw is the largest edible fruit native
to the United States and Canada Wow so
it is big it's this big tree fruit that
grows in the eastern United States
twenty-six states in fact so a big chunk
of the United States from the Atlantic
west into eastern Oklahoma and Nebraska
even from southern Louisiana to southern
southern Michigan so this huge swath of
the United States so it's our biggest
native tree fruit and curiously enough
actually happens to belong to a tropical
fruit family I can about that yes so if
any of your listeners are familiar with
cherimoya guanabana soursop custard
apples this fruit is actually related to
that and it's the only member of that
tropical fruit family that's not found
in the tropics that's found in our
temperate climate so botanically
speaking it's a it's a black sheep it
really sticks out it's really unusual
and unique in that way so it's our
biggest native fruit and it belongs to
this tropical fruit family but then most
of all in terms of what is a paw paw
most of all most important of all it
tastes great it tastes you know it's
often described as a banana mango
combination or a vanilla custard or
something along those lines to describe
it and then when you reflect on where
you are so I'm in Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania you know we're gonna have a
winter soon enough and the fact that not
only does this thing grow here but it's
native to this area
it's super fascinating so that's what a
Popeye is Wow
and how you said a couple of times that
it's the largest fruit how big is it so
when I say it's the largest fruit if you
were to go out into the woods and hunt
and find a wild popoff you might come
across something that's no bigger than a
fig and you'd say Andy this isn't very
impressive this isn't you know big right
but then you might go to the next wild
patch or to a garden where you know
someone growing a Paw Paw and you can
find fruit as big as a grapefruit over a
pound Wow for a pound of custard so they
can get very large
and again larger you know larger than
persimmons larger than certainly any of
other fruits that are native to the US
but then also a big pop up can be bigger
than than certain apples and things so
so it can get quite large Wow so in your
introduction you mentioned American
history and this has a piece in American
history I know that you know we know
that Johnny Appleseed was a real person
and the reason we have so many varieties
of apples here in this country is
because he was spreading the seeds of
apples all over the place
tell us the history of and how it's
connected to you know the American
history the Paw Paw absolutely and that
is you know as much as I love
interacting with the fruit when I did my
research I may have even loved
interacting with its history even more
you know seeing how this fruit this
fruit that still grows in the United
States connects to to our history mm-hmm
and pawpaw has been here long before
people arrived in the United States in
the fossil record it goes back perhaps
as far as 56 million years oh whoa
so the American story can be told
through the paw paw it's thought that
the extinct mega fauna the large animals
that were on this continent would have
eaten pawpaw and and that's really why
it looks and smells perhaps the way it
does a large fleshy fruit would have
been eaten whole and and and transported
across the continent by the large
megafauna and then you know to summarize
millennia in a couple of sentences every
human being or every every civilization
that was on on on this continent
interacted with with pawpaw so starting
with the earliest North American
Native Americans huh eight and use Papua
not just as a food but as a fiber that
the tree barn right inner tree bark was
woven as a cordage and there's lots of
stories of tribes using it for various
purposes and then you know as Europeans
came to the continent they experienced
it they were experiencing so many new
things that you know Papa might not have
jumped out in their journal entries is
this most incredible fruit as we see it
today you know looking back on that
history uh-huh but pop Oz were there
from the beginning you know the this
Soto expedition chronicled pawpaws the
settlers of Jamestown knew and and and
wrote about Papa's even all the way up
to the the founding fathers Jefferson
and Washington they they knew Papa and
it had it growing on their property Wow
so this is a well researched book yeah
where did you come up with all of this
at various means so first of all the
book is both a historical account of
pawpaw but also the living history or
the current portrait of Papa so lots of
traveling interviews and talking to
people and going around the country when
it came to historical research it was a
combination of time in the library and
time on the computer scanning documents
and and just looking for the word Papa
or old-time spellings of Papa or even
looking for Native American terms for
the fruit so just scanning documents
looking for this and going from one lead
to another looking for this information
yeah one of the more interesting sources
for for information about older history
with pop I was looking at the map you
can read Americans familiarity with
pawpaw by looking at place names there's
dozens of pawpaw towns throughout the
country Paw Paw rivers and other pop-up
places yeah and then going back even
further for Native American interaction
with Papa where there is significantly
less citations you can look at Native
American place names when they translate
to English they tell you things like Paw
Paw thicket river or the Paw Paw eaters
or Paw Paw town so when you look at
these Native American place names you
can start to develop a picture of of how
that's been important to these people
important enough to name places and
people laughter yeah
how long did you research his book for
the better part of probably four years
as I worked other jobs and traveled and
lived a normal life I was working on
this book as well but every year for
about four or five years during popov
season I traveled the country to meet
people who were growing pop off during
pop off season but also to go to some of
these historic sites in American history
where Papa's grew so for example I
traveled to the Missouri River in
Missouri to see the site where Lewis and
Clark's expedition a paw Paw's and wrote
about it and and sites like that so I
traveled a good deal for four years and
then also just working in the library
and working in my home office Wow how
cool is that
so I want you to think back over those
four years that you were researching
this and tell me about the coolest thing
that happened the coolest thing that you
found just kind of plug back into that
moment when it was like mind-expanding
for you you got one of those well
there's so many and and thankfully part
of the book is travelogue so they're all
in the book as well and and it really
felt like all of these revelations were
really cool because I came to this as a
pop on novice I didn't know anything
about this fruit and so the book the
narrative format is a first-person
narrative as I discovered everything
about the pawpaw so I'm able to share
that with the reader but this is a it
was a genuine expression so I knew
nothing about this fruit and as I
researched and traveled in all of this
stuff everything was a new revelation to
me so that was exciting and a great
experience to have I will say you know
I'm failing to come up with the one
example but looking back when I travel
to these historic sites it was
incredible to see Paw Paw growing just
about everywhere you know the I
mentioned the Lewis and Clark run site I
went to you know historic Williamsburg
and Yorktown and Jamestown these early
American sites and pawpaws grow almost
like a weed in that area they're there
all over the place and so that means
that you know the founders of this kind
shuri were surrounded by this fruit and
no doubt eating it Thomas Jefferson's
Monticello George Washington's Mount
Vernon I found paw Paw's there too and
so these very historic revered American
sites are surrounded by paw Paw's and so
just to think about you know the the the
history of this country and all the
things good and bad that happened here
and that yeah you know pop up maybe it
wasn't the most important thing that's
of those folks but it was certainly
there it was present in all of this and
a footnote at least in all of these it's
you're seeing events yeah
well I happen to have a copy of your
book here and I'm kind of glancing
through it as we're talking and I want
to read this book that sounds very
interesting could you're telling stories
like Johnny Pappa seed I mentioned
Johnny Appleseed tell me about that
Johnny Pappa see Johnny Pappa seed it's
a nickname I'm not sure if Neil Peterson
enjoys that name or not but it's one
that's kind of sticking Johnny Pappa
seed is Neil Peterson he's he's one of
the the people who can be thanked for
the current Papa revival that we're
living in uh-huh I see chapter seven
there's also Peterson's gambit yeah that
is me Oh Peterson he starting about 1975
and beginning in earnest in 1980
Neil Peterson when he first learned
about Papa's he was fascinated like I am
like so many people but Neil wanted to
take paw Paw's out of the woods bring
them to the people bring them to
agriculture even and and turn this
native fruit with so much potential
this fruit that's been fairly neglected
for generations and and bring it back
and so what he did was he set out to
establish an experimental orchard where
he grew out the best fruit that he could
get his hands on and the way he got this
great fruit is also interesting and
fascinating and in comprises an entire
chapter in the book but he searched the
country and historical record to find
the best pop off fruit and then grow the
seeds of those trees out in an
experimental orchard and conduct a
traditional breeding experiment Wow to
do advance selections of Papa to find
the best pop laws and then propagate it
and and do analysis on how each tree
performed really really incredible
on his own time on his own free time you
know he wasn't sponsored by a university
to do this and really is is a you know
incredible story not only for Papa
growers but also just as an example of
one person's Drive and and how someone
with an idea can really have an impact
so because of work now thanks to all of
that commitment for decades he spent
doing this we now have some really
fantastic pop-up cultivars that he is
named they're known as Peterson paw
Paw's and they they bear the names of
American Indian rivers with American
Indian name so Susquehanna Shenandoah
Potomac also places where Papa's grow so
he's named as his paw Paw's after his
cultivars after these rivers and they're
really incredible really a gift to us
who want to grow paw pods they're these
wonderful fruits so his story is really
incredible for so many reasons
especially because of the fruit that
resulted from his neighbor Wow so given
they're so delicious why aren't they
more known like apples and pears and
peaches right that's the that's the
question that's what drove me to do this
investigation and to find out you know
why why aren't they at supermarkets why
aren't they more common why aren't
people growing them in their backyards
and it's a nuanced story it's a long
you know things often don't happen for
one reason but if I had to summarize it
fairly quickly for you the idea is that
this was a fruit earlier generations
were very familiar with you know Native
Americans knew it colonialists knew it
pioneers on the Appalachian frontier
knew it folks in the Midwest pioneers
knew it and then there was a process of
forgetting that fruit was abundant and
still is abundant in the wild so it
never needed cultivation in the way that
the the fruits of Europe would have
needed the way you know the way folks
grew apples in the United States things
like that you didn't have to have a pop
out order to have it you could just go
into the woods and get it you know over
the past century though we've stopped
going to the woods for food we're you
know a more urban society a more
suburban society and and frankly you
know much of the culture just doesn't
interact with those wild places and you
know wouldn't eat wild food necessarily
certainly that's not all
but a huge chunk of the population isn't
doing that kind of thing and since it
never needed cultivation there were in
orchards to rely on so you couldn't then
go to the grocery store and get your
papa fix so it's really this process of
when we stopped going to the woods for
food or even just pleasure and pastime
we stopped knowing about Papa's Wow
so and I'll bet you go in-depth on this
in your book right yeah yeah perfect
perfect so are they easy to grow let's
talk about cultivating and growing them
are they easy to grow
so yes the Paw Paw can be quite easy to
grow you just have to give it like
anything else as you're familiar with
fruit trees and any kind of tree really
you have to make sure the conditions are
right but otherwise it's it's an easier
tree to grow especially with the the
fruit you know this may change and in a
dozen years based on you know pests
arriving or pests finding pawpaw but at
the moment there's very few pests that
will bother to pop off and and they
don't bother the fruit so it's something
that folks are growing organically
there's really no need to spray a Popoff
for for pests even folks who used you
know conventional methods and who do
rely on pesticides for other crops they
don't find any reason to spray a Popoff
yay it's good for many reasons and this
is one of them the fact that it can
easily be grown organically the other
thing about so that's fruit but you know
getting a tree established and making
sure the tree is healthy and happy we
say that the Papa likes moist
well-drained soil which is sort of I
feel like that's the holy grail of grail
of soil so lots of water but but
well-drained so it doesn't like swampy
or waterlogged soils even in the wild
you can take notes on where it grows in
the wild to figure out how to grow it it
grows on riverbanks but not on the
low-lying floodplains necessarily that
the the maybe the historic flood plains
but nowhere that floods regularly right
will you typically find it so a little
bit up off the river so moist
well-drained sites yeah one of the other
nuances and quirks about pawpaws is that
in in the wild it sits in the understory
it's a it's a smaller tree growing in
the understory but if you want fruit the
more Sun it receives the more fruit it
will produce of course
so it's this quirky thing where it's its
content and thrive
and lives well in the understory but if
you wanted to produce fruit you might
want to put it in more Sun so in its
first two years as a young seedling it's
very sensitive to lots of Sun and to
drought so you have to keep it well
rotted in those first two years and you
may need to protect it from Sun so even
something as simple as a tomato cage
with a burlap sack around the the
Western the afternoon Sun can sufficient
but then by year three or four as the
Papua is established and growing it can
do extremely well in full Sun in fact
I'm looking out my window my backyard
trees they're in direct Sun all day long
and they do well there and they do
produce more fruit in the Sun and for
our listeners out there that are in
Phoenix Arizona like me who I've been
wanting to try pawpaws full Sun does not
mean Phoenix Arizona yes and I should
remember that when I talk about pop Oz
especially to your national audience
correct so even even in the deep south
where they're native you know you may
want to give some shade
I've talking to growers have been
growing them for a couple decades they
find that some of their trees even live
longer if they get a little bit of a
break from that afternoon Sun so
certainly in your desert climate that
you'll have to be the pioneers that
figure out how it's done there if you
want to grow there
perfect yeah that's so that's what we do
here in the desert we try and figure out
how to make this stuff grow so what are
people doing around the country with the
pop up we talked about neil peterson
what about others yeah so i mentioned
this earlier i really do think that
we're living in this this moment of the
papa revival you know and your listeners
know that we're experiencing this
gardening revival this is a long time
yeah yeah and it really does feel like
it's a sustainable movement that it's
not a fad that people are actually
generally interested not only are they
interested in it but realize that you
know sustainable food systems in all of
this is key to our survival as a
civilization so that's the broader
context of what's going on in people's
interest in these things so that's one
avenue that people come into pop on but
but also just people want to eat this
interesting fruit you know for for
nutrition for flavor you know that the
taste is again unlike anything else
we're growing in our in our part of the
world and it's
action in history so there's there's
many there are many avenues and reasons
why the pawpaw is experiencing its
revival the other thing that's happened
is just there's some great folks doing
great things with it the way I learned
about pawpaw was this Ohio Paw Paw
festival and the festival organizer
their Christian meal is a permaculture
list who wanted to make use of this
fruit that grew you know millions of
trees in southern Ohio where this
festival is and he has created this
festival that's now in its 17th or 18th
year Wow
this three-day happening in Appalachian
Ohio in this beautiful setting where
people come from all over to celebrate
the pop off the impact he's had in
raising the fruits awareness has been
so not only does he do this festival and
his his own farm he actually is the
largest if not only commercial processor
of Papa Pope and he ships frozen pulp
around the country so this fruit that
was for generations a wild fruit and
that a forgotten fruit can now be
ordered in frozen bags from a
permaculture list in southern Ohio
integration acres is his farm which is
just really telling of the revival and
how far it's come
no kidding how cool yeah
and others are growing it at a bigger
scale as well there's a commercial farm
in central Maryland that has over a
thousand trees and he this farmer he and
his wife male fruit fresh fruit all over
the country and more and more folks are
doing this every year people are
planting dozens in some cases hundreds
of papad trees and seeds so in a few
years we may have you know more paw
Paw's than we know what to do with and I
think that's a good thing there's a lot
a lot of folks growing it now and people
are doing neat things with the fruit as
well the craft brew revival beer revival
is interested in pop also there's you
know a dozen breweries in Ohio that make
pop-up beer and in just about every
state in the eastern US you can you
might you might find a pop-up beer on
tap people are experimenting with it and
people are other making other products
like coffee ice cream and and Pablo
gelato is also something that folks are
doing Wow okay so now I'm motivated to
go order some fruit when are they in
season that's the question this is it
now oh yay the month of September
roughly for the mid-atlantic Oh
Valley is its Popoff season it's a
little earlier obviously further south
and then later
further north there's some great pop-up
producers in in southern Michigan and
their season will start about the 1st of
October perfect remind me again who I
can call and have some shipped to me so
you would get fresh paw Paw's from
earthy delights and I believe that's
earthy calm and then frozen pawpaw comes
from integration acres cool
all right everybody order your paw Paw's
up how cool so I'm looking in the back
of your book you've got section 2 or
appendix 2 in the back of the book a
selection of pop-on nurseries oh and you
have a paw paw ice cream recipe but then
also cultivar profiles in appendix 3 so
you've really you've really done a lot
of homework about the who what when why
and where of paw Paw's if you want to
know about it the book is paw paw in
search of America's forgotten fruit by
Andrew Moore by Chelsea Greene
publishing all right cool so let's shift
and I'd like for you to talk about a
time you failed how you overcame that
fair and what you might have learned
from it
sure I'd love to talk about my family on
your podcast No so I thought about this
and I thought about this question and I
I don't I hope it's not a cop-out but I
will say that I experienced failures
almost found a daily basis I think I I
set up each morning I wake up and I have
things to do list and you know each
season even as a as a gardener I have
these ambitions I'm gonna grow X many
peppers and make so much fermented
pepper hot sauce and you know I'm gonna
try to do this and do that and so I
don't know if it's if not doing
everything on my ambitious to-do list is
a failure or not or if setting up too
high expectations is a failure and that
you know I to be sort of happier with a
my garden and B my productivity mm-hm
just realizing that you know you've only
got so much time in a day and energy and
and and be happy with the things I do
accomplish be happy with say my Pappaw
crop this year
and never mind the habits and you know
obviously hoping to continue to improve
as a gardener as a person and all of
those things and just I guess also
realizing that you know not making one
thing this year or not growing something
gives you something new to do next year
yeah so yeah I hope that works for an
perfect perfect yeah you and I have the
same challenge it sounds to me like your
to-do list right now is greater than
anything you'd handle in your life and
you add new stuff to it every day
correct yeah it's like yep yeah amen to
so my learning from from that over the
past 15 years is to be happy with what I
have right now what's here and you know
what happens in the future will be
magical but be happy now yeah and I like
that and you know I have another
anecdote along with what you've just
said is it was a corner store in my
neighborhood with graffiti on it and the
whole building had recently been
repainted and they did not paint the
graffiti they left it because it had a
message I guess they liked or something
uh-huh and it said it did say what you
just said but essentially what if God
only blessed us in the future with the
things we're thankful for today yeah and
I like that but then I also always told
myself to take a photo of that and I
kept putting it off and then it
eventually got painted over mm-hmm
I should have been thankful and taken a
picture of it but now it's gone anyway
so what do you consider your biggest
success probably I should say marrying
the woman I married two years ago yay
yeah I've been to I'm two years in as
well so yeah and I'm Heidi is just
amazing go ahead so sure yeah I mean
meeting her and you know meeting such a
supportive person and having her in my
life is probably the best thing I did
yeah cool what drives you curiosity and
I guess a real you know love for for the
world and looking around and just being
fascinated by so many things and and
staying open to that and at this point
reminding myself to stay stay curious
and to stay open to the you know the
interesting things and the beautiful
things around us yeah that's one of my
biggest lessons in my life I've never
stopped learning I I went back to school
late in life I didn't get back into
college until I was 39
but I never stopped learning along the
way you know that's that curiosity it's
like I can't help myself that's right
yeah there's always something new and
and to get the joy out of it not not to
think of learning as like a burden or
you know a test you have to take but to
just keep realizing oh this stuff
enriches every day the more you learn
yeah exactly if you could recommend one
book for our listeners what would it be
and why yeah so if you like my book a
history of Papa or if it sounds
interesting to you I would also
recommend this wonderful book by Susan
Frankel it's called American chestnut
the life death and rebirth of a perfect
tree not only is that a great title it's
a wonderful book about the American
chestnut story and it's the whole rise
and fall of a tree that was important to
Native Americans and early pioneer
Americans and then the fall of it and
and what lessons what lessons to learn
from it but also what things to be
hopeful about the possible resurrection
of this American chestnut it's a great
book so if you like if you're interested
at all in you know narratives about a
tree this is a really great one perfect
perfect and what one final piece of
advice you have for our listeners so
I'll keep it Papa centric the advice and
if you want to grow paw Paw's no matter
where you live or no matter what you've
been told try it we're seeing folks
growing them in the desert of Southern
California Utah Central Florida where
they're not supposed to be and then even
farther north we're seeing them in
Vermont and Minnesota places where you
don't find paw Paw's so if you want to
grow them just go for it give it a shot
beautiful well thank you so much for
joining us on the show today Andrew it's
been a pleasure thanks so much for
having me you bet so how can our
listeners get a hold of you yeah if you
want to find me first you can go to
Chelsea slash Paw Paw mhm I'm
also on all the social media so there's
a Paw Paw page in search of America's
frat and fruit on Facebook and I'm on
Instagram Andy Moore 44 perfect you can
also find show notes from today's
podcast urban farm org for rich slash

Poppa well that's it for today thanks
for joining us on the urban farm podcast
Nature doesn't waste energy and by using
these natural cycles to work in our
favor we can harvest both plants and
fish let us teach you how just text grow
fish two three three four four four or
visit I want to grow fish calm and
you'll receive our free webinar on how
to grow your own fish powered garden we
hope you enjoyed today's episode of the
urban farm podcast remember to listen
three days a week for tips advice and
resources to help you on your journey
with urban farming you can find us on
the web at urban farm org or send us an
email to podcast at urban farm org
in the words of Vincent van Gogh great
things are done by a series of small
things brought together be encouraged
that with each lesson learned and skill
developed you are one step closer in the
direction of your dreams

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Wild Paw Paw
« on: June 17, 2022, 08:51:30 PM »
OH I didn't buy the book yet

His site you used to not be able to copy/paste
it would not let you with the text or coding they did

This is where I saw it on video

(I am leaving so do not have time to look into it, but will try a minute  )

Oh here it is less then a minute
(I put the youtube video in transcript , and clicked ctrl button F , and Minnesota ,,

 28 12 Farther north we're seeing them in
Vermont and Minnesota places where you
don't find paw Paw's so if you want to
grow them just go for it give it a shot
beautiful well thank you so much for

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Wild Paw Paw
« on: June 17, 2022, 08:48:11 PM »
OH I didn't buy the book yet

His site you used to not be able to copy/paste
it would not let you with the text or coding they did

This is where I saw it on video

(I am leaving so do not have time to look into it, but will try a minute  )

Also with the polar vortex here we got -40 F. (I was in New Orleans ) the lakes were frozen solid
as well they said you could throw water up, and and it freeze right away  .....

I guess the whole thing depends more if the fruit will ripen on time

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Wild Paw Paw
« on: June 17, 2022, 05:35:45 PM »
I actually posted Because I see pawpaw will not survive MN wasn't correct .

But actually want to know if anyone knows of paw paws by Georgia Atlanta

In stone mountain (16 miles East of  Atlanta )
are said to be old growth chestnut trees (native )

Stone Mountain is a quartz monzonite dome monadnock and the site of Stone Mountain Park,
Outside the park is the small city of Stone Mountain, Georgia...

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Wild Paw Paw
« on: June 17, 2022, 05:28:03 PM »
What zone? I'm interested in finding something that could survive in Twin Cities area

Paw has been grown in Minnesota

Andrew Moore the Author of the pawpaw book talks about it
 (I do not know where it was a short Interview about such book)

BE good to get Jerry Lehman VE-21 (for valley east )
(although when I bought seed I assumed VE-21 meant very early after some months )

I have the info for the science stuff

It is cannabis

Old  news to me never knew   that is how species are defined
O( ( but interesting )

Hey bovine
By the way I like what you say
arent you the kink of cannabis

a old neighbor stole some stuff slipped on ice
with a glass jar of hope
but yes sir bleeding to death
No charges pressed
fat of the land
 land of cannabis
A call of warning to A mother
and he is still trying to get his sense of self back in line
Movement of the hand is dire
I hope this man can find peace within ..
God Bless

Some botanists prefer to recognize C. sativa L. and C. indica Lam. at the rank of species (Hillig 2005a, Clarke and Merlin 2013). Debates over taxonomic rank are notoriously arbitrary. Molecular studies using DNA sequences can make the question of rank less arbitrary. Mandolino et al. (2002) quantified DNA polymorphisms in ten drug- and fiber-type varieties. They found more variability between individuals within a variety than between varieties – data that confirmed “the existence of a single, widely shared gene pool.” In a worldwide collection of Cannabis, Gilmore et al. (2007) found a low rate of sequence variation (approximately 1 polymorphism per 1 kb sequenced cpDNA) – consistent with a single species.

McPartland (2018) used DNA barcodes as a metric to place the Cannabis question of rank in context with other plants. He examined five plant barcodes (rbcL, matK, trnH-psbA, trnL-trnF, and ITS1), and calculated a mean divergence (barcode gap) of 0.41% between C. sativa and C. indica. This nearly equaled the mean divergence of 0.43% between five pairs of plants considered different varieties or subspecies (e.g., Camellia sinensis var. sinensis and C. sinensis var. assamica). In contrast, a 3.0% barcode gap separated five pairs of plants considered different species (e.g., Humulus lupulus and H. japonicus). Hebert et al. (2004) proposed a 2.7% difference between two COI sequences (the “barcode gap”) as the threshold for flagging genetically divergent specimens as distinct animal species.

Sawler et al. (2015) calculated a mean fixation index (FST) of 0.156 between populations of fiber- and drug-type plants (n = 43 and 81, respectively). FST values range from 0 to 1; a zero value indicates the two groups freely interbreed; a 1 value indicates the groups are completely isolated from one another. A mean FST of 0.156 is similar to the degree of genetic differentiation between human populations in Europe and East Asia, which belong to a single species.

Lynch et al. (2016) calculated FST = 0.099 between fiber- and drug-type groups (n = 22 and 173, respectively). Grassa et al. (2018) calculated FST = 0.229 between fiber-type accessions and “marijuana,” by concatenating data from Sawler, Lynch, and their own sequencing. Hey and Pinho (2012) proposed FST = 0.35 as a conservative threshold measure for species differentiation; pairs with greater values are identified as separate species, pairs with lesser values are identified as subspecies populations. Clearly, C. sativa L. and C. indica Lam. are best differentiated at a subspecies rank.

In the 1980s, drug-type plants came to be divided into two categories, widely known by the ubiquitous labels “Indica” and “Sativa”. This vernacular taxonomy became widespread after Anderson (1980) published a line drawing of the plants (Fig. 1). He differentiated “Indica” and “Sativa” by morphology and geographical provenance. As summarized by de Meijer and van Soest (1992), “Indica” applied to plants with broad leaflets, short and compact habit, and early maturation, and there is evidence that landrace ancestors of such plants came from Central Asia (primarily Afghanistan). “Sativa” applied to plants with narrow leaflets, tall and diffuse habit, and late maturation, and there is evidence that landrace ancestors of such plants came originally from South Asia (primarily India), with early historical distribution to Southeast Asia, Africa, and the Americas.

I do not think I agree with this system of protecting plants

SEE quote

What’s next — To best protect a species, researchers must classify it scientifically within the Linnaean taxonomy. To conserve a species, scientists must name it, otherwise, it won’t appear on the IUCN Red List — the official list of plants and animals that conservation organizations use to classify endangered and threatened species.

But current scientific classification is lacking, and we can partner with Indigenous communities to fill in the gaps in our knowledge of species, the study argues.

“While Linnaean taxonomy offers a broad framework for global comparisons, it may lack the detailed local insights possessed by indigenous peoples,” the study authors write.

By marrying scientific knowledge with Indigenous classifications, we could potentially protect species from extinction. Due to manmade trends like global warming and deforestation, species are disappearing nearly every day. The UN reported in 2019 that one million animal and plant species faced extinction.

Gardner says that scientists are often already working with Indigenous guides when they conduct fieldwork, so it would be a natural next step for researchers and Indigenous communities to collaborate to classify species.

“This kind of collaboration can improve our understanding of biodiversity and can improve recognition of the contributions Indigenous people have been making to science all along,” Gardner says.

I disagree with that to save plants that are of a variation

So lets just destroy all cultivated tomatoes , and go back to the tiny wild ones

(I have a link of The science of different species chromosomes length as opposed to variation ..

Do we need to save a plant on a species rank ?

If you think so go back to ignoring the  wild plants , and screw wanting to see variations / subspecies  across the USA

SHIT IS GOING EXTICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Botanists also knew a wild relative of this tree existed that was somewhat different from the domesticated variety, but scientists simply thought it was a variant of the same species. The wild relative contained smaller, less-sweet fruits with thinner pulp and longer hairs.

if you put some sort of mosquito net they won't be able to fly out of the container when they hatch :)
but also prevents them from laying eggs there so less will make their way there.

it only takes one or two weeks for them to hatch...then when you water with this water whatever larvae will die there.

That sounds Good

You could add mint to water (or mint family square stem)

I have rubbed cat nip /  mint on skin
people laughed when mosquito landed on me but kept walking looking for a place to bite

(I hope that Girl didn't think I had poison blood, but she saw the whole process so I guess not...)

(also made a quick tea a lot with water cooler before I left on bike rides everyday with Butter fly weed (Russain sage Ornamental)
the process  only takes seconds (of soaking , and rubbing(), and works,.


I know when I Hurt my back , and could not move off my stomach for 2 months

Oil is heavier then water good for keeping pee jug from not smelling

(I thought of it myself, but  they have eco  urinals that use no water like that)

(Also people used to preserve wine  like that with Olive oil to prevent Oxidization after opening a bottle
(for more then 3 days wine can be ruined -- or unless you use inert gas or wine saver to suck air out )
 I learned Old Italians would then drip the bread in the oil floating on the wine...

Wait a second Don't you guys have GMO Mosquitos
Do not know if those lay eggs in Oil maybe they like GMO canola/soy oil as well.

depending how many barrels you have you could get some oil behind a restaurant that fries food. (or call, and ask)

Cornmeal the may eat it, and die

I cannot remember if the source sometimes people had old homesteading tricks, and sometimes copy/pasted ..

I used a bad bed sheet on 55 gallon barrel so did not try , but guess I could.

I didn't know how safe it was tp travel or how far your willing to go

But have you thought about searching online for trelawny jamaica arboretum  a few listed
-- Martha Brae Rafting Village  (I saw this but looks more like a boat tour )

But always nice to contact the locals either way make some phone calls to these buisiness
you could ask the tour guides , and explain your into ecology or whatever
(note even making small talk with the grocer clerk can get results or even places unrelated to what your looking for.)

In Jamaica there was a scientist looking for A Annona
(I gave Him the link, & in info of the plane with Lasers In South America to find new species but He never replied)

Annona jamaicensis

There was some herbal medicine place in the mountains (it was on First nations public Tv FNX or maybe Link TV. )
I wrote the place down but not sure where I put it -- I will check out my Notebook)

I visit New Orleans , and areas (and lived there a year )

I'd be cool if I could get seeds or buy them of Florida Tomato

maybe I could trade ..

Also pollen might be cool (willing to pay, but not certain of the time it flowers )

(I may see the pollen   stores to pollintate later my tomato  (worth a gamble )

I thank you digigarden for those links

I did see some tomato that can survive freezing
would be nice hybridizing , species (with paint brush)

I was going to dig up last years Heirloom (weather was funny winter crept up very late out of Now where )

Edit a quick though maybe I could just have to grow the one that can take frozen weather

And just graft onto roots with new Normal tomato

OH Digi garden

I did see a Garden catalog with Purple peppers (called black something)

A few new species that are pretty cool

Not a Solanum species, but a Annonaceae (cherimoya species ) has one that has a flower like a Solonum speices

I may have wanted to make a post one day, when I had a funny goofy sense of Humor... (oh, and new to science )



Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Variegated sparkleberry
« on: June 10, 2022, 10:16:16 PM »
Very Nice looks like you could make money on a Native ....
(any pollen) or what time does it flower time of month please?

Now whats the name Sparkle berry that is eye catching (head turner ) pooka dots ? any idea's Calico
Waiting to see a persimmon or paw paw like this haha. Have you seen any like this? Ive been noticing a few other native species mostly weeds lately with that same yellow/green variegation. Could something be to this??

Someone did find a varigated persimmon

Some pawpaw seeds has been popping up with white leaves people get

I have not see anyone graft them onto a tree to try to save the white leaves
people also may not update (but I know some of these not getting chlorophyll have died)

(edit again yours looks stable )

I did read some on why variegation happens ..

I worded that wrong

I meant some grapes may be oxidized may make the wine with them (separate )

(I do not want to sound like a bad wine maker (I syphon (or rack) my wine correctly
(have from the Beginning )

If the grapes arrive fully frozen
will just freeze again, and not be so stressed, with time)

I also may oxidize some by purpose
(just trying blending, and making something special even if only a tiny fraction of oxidized wine gets blended )

( I do like to fix messed up food sometimes you get something great with the different off combinations
this is if it is a ton of food you may have to work at it for a 3 or 4 hours in small samples. .)

I plan to make that Muscadine wine soon

Since I will not have much grapes (shipped frozen)
and expensive

I may be testing the acid  adding more tartaric acid (grape acid.,), and doing smaller batches adjusting each one

This is not so much for the wine

Just trying to know this grape before I buy more in season ..

(they are like 3 bucks a pound after shipping shipping is the problem with price )

I may do Pirate ship (printer broke)
but for now do not want to fool with it (never used it, and just do not want to stress over it )

I may just make the wine in a  Intuitive manner
I think that may eb the best one
(would like to know the numbers ,
but also do not want to stress out at this time. (I have short time frame.)

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Berry ID
« on: June 07, 2022, 06:29:01 AM »
Apparently Chinese Privet , and Florida have a different latin name,
 but thanks to you actually I did not catch that (Florida Privet is new to me)

JJust wanted to say Our Privet has a gap from a few Dead ones From winter -40 F Polar vortex
I just saw this June berry cultivar  with small growth

Maybe I can hide one in a bare spots place
and try to convince my Mom to replace them all

\ Amelanchier Alnifolia 'Obelisk'

(random Nursery I am trying to boycott nurseries selling Japanese honeysuckle --
I pay taxes , and others do too to remove that crap -- but not sure if they sell invasive ones .)

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