Pickering: Si. Cogshall: No

[Carbo]

A tale of two mangoes.  My Cogshall is about 7 years in the ground.  Spotty producer over the years, but this season it outdid itself.  Probably around 120 mangoes.
Delicious, but as has been discussed here previously, they are prone to internal breakdown and jelly seed.  Picking them off the tree earlier than I have previously helped somewhat.  But still, many of the fruits exhibited the problem.  It's about 18 feet tall and has been pretty much bullet proof as far as fungus is concerned.  But I think I need to yank her.  If I do, I'm thinking Sweet Tart.  Can I keep the ST at around 15 feet or so?

As for my Pickering, I transplanted it last May from a 3 gallon pot.  She's been flushing consistently since.  Now about 4 feet tall by 4 feet wide.  There's one branch that is only about 15 inches off the ground.  Should this be cut off at the trunk?  It's probably too low to the ground for carrying any fruit, but I figure for now the leaves are absorbing the sunlight and feeding the tree.  Too soon to tip the other branches?

[Cookie Monster]

Interesting. I wonder if you're picking them early enough.

[Carbo]

I think I have been, Jeff.  We've discussed this previously, so I was diligent, (at least I think I was), about picking the fruit early enough so they were still somewhat firm and then allowing them a day or two at most on the counter.  Despite this, many were soft around the seed. . .too soft for my tastes.  But from everything I've read, the Cogshall is often described as having a "creamy" texture.  So maybe it's my aversion to creamy mangoes and the soft centers are the norm.  Also wondering if supplementing with calcium might be a solution?  I've read that can be a factor with jelly seed.
So there's that, plus everything I've read says you haven't lived until you've eaten a Sweet Tart mango. . .firm texture, sweet. . .sour. . .disease resistant. . .pretty much the greatest thing since canned beer. 

[bsbullie]

No, Sweet Tarf is not a firm mango.  Its not a Carrie but it is on the sifter side.  It is also not sour unless picked green and underripe.   It is intensely sweet with a zingy but well integrated  component.  It can have a few minor issues but nothing that would make me not recommend it.  It is an upright vigorous grower, keepinv it at 15 feet will take some continual effort.

Pickering is a firm mango.  I would get a rid of the low branch.

Why don't you cut back and top work the Cogshall.  That is what i would do (not a real fan of it anyway).

[Carbo]

Rob, the Sweet Tart is that big a tree?  Hmmm. . .that might be an issue for me.  I was under the impression that most mango trees could be trained to remain reasonably tall and manageable.  For me, that means around 15 to 18 feet.

[Cookie Monster]

I pick my cogshall way before that. I pick them rock hard. They then spend 5 to 7 days ripening on the counter. It sounds like you're picking when they are already showing signs of ripeness on the tree, which in my opinion is too late. If you want to avoid jelly seed, you have to pick them mature green. Same goes for other mangoes with susceptibility to internal breakdown (eg, nam doc mai).

I think I have been, Jeff.  We've discussed this previously, so I was diligent, (at least I think I was), about picking the fruit early enough so they were still somewhat firm and then allowing them a day or two at most on the counter.  Despite this, many were soft around the seed. . .too soft for my tastes.  But from everything I've read, the Cogshall is often described as having a "creamy" texture.  So maybe it's my aversion to creamy mangoes and the soft centers are the norm.  Also wondering if supplementing with calcium might be a solution?  I've read that can be a factor with jelly seed.
So there's that, plus everything I've read says you haven't lived until you've eaten a Sweet Tart mango. . .firm texture, sweet. . .sour. . .disease resistant. . .pretty much the greatest thing since canned beer.

[Cookie Monster]

The sweet tart that I've had were firm. Not quite the firmness of a pickering, but still fairly firm. And, they can sit on the counter ripe for several days without breakdown.

If that's the level of firmness you're looking for, cogshall may not cut it. You can eliminate jelly seed by cutting mature green, but it still isn't a firm mango.

Sweet tart does seem to enjoy growing :-).

And, yah, if you decide to delete the cogshall, topworking would be recommended. You get a huge head start on growth by topworking a mature tree. If you're cogshall is currently 18 feet tall, with 2 full summers of growth (apr - oct) your topworked tree will grow back to 18 feet :-). A top-worked tree grows with incredible vigor as it tries to get back to its previous size.

Another thing you can do -- if you're an adventurer -- is topwork a seedling to a drastically cut back tree. You can shorten the time from seed to fruit dramatically by doing so. So, if you had, say, a maha chanok seedling that you wanted to fruit, cut the cogshall down to about 5 feet tall and top-work the sprouts. You'll get fruit within 3 years from the seedling vs an 8 year wait if you were to plant it :-)

[bsbullie]

Jeff - if picking your Sweet Tarts when green, you must try and compare when picked with a majority or good amount of orange coloration.   OMG, what a difference and what a taste.  I can attest as I have experimented and picked major amounts of the last few years (and believe to have perfected), if picked early or with a majority of green, they do not properly ripen, can be sour and even chalky, and has a tendency to wrinkle if on the other aide of too green.

[Cookie Monster]

Indeed, sweet tart is off the charts delicious when picked properly. It's my 2nd favorite mango (lemon zest being first). FYI -- I don't pick the sweet tarts green. Only certain mangoes must be picked green for full flavor and texture, cogshall being one.

Here's a cogshall that I'm currently devouring (excuse the teeth marks -- I got a little carried away while cracking it open :-). It was picked about a week ago and allowed to ripen. You'll note that the texture is not sloppy. It's comparable to an edward in terms of firmness.

[Carbo]

So you're picking them rock hard and green?  Are they coloring up any indoors, the green showing some yellow after a few days?  How much give are you feeling at that time?
I just pulled a few big ones off the tree, earlier than I would normally.  I'm going to keep my eye on them for a few days and see what the results are.

[Cookie Monster]

Yep, rock hard and green. They might have some blush if they were in the sun (or pure green if in the shade). They do yellow up indoors. I wait til they show some yellow and yield to gentle pressure. It takes some experimentation, but they are delicious once you learn how to ripen them. The flavor is very similar to a bailey's marvel (an apple type flavor -- remotely similar to apple banana), not the mild flavor that I've seen described elsewhere.

So you're picking them rock hard and green?  Are they coloring up any indoors, the green showing some yellow after a few days?  How much give are you feeling at that time?
I just pulled a few big ones off the tree, earlier than I would normally.  I'm going to keep my eye on them for a few days and see what the results are.

[puglvr1]

Very interesting about picking the Cogshall rock hard and green...Jeff can you post a picture of the mature green when you pick it. Mine right now are mostly green and I want to pick them before they get that internal and sometimes uneven ripening...Thanks!!

[Cookie Monster]

This late into the florida mango season, you should be able to pick cogshall fairly indiscriminately. You can judge whether or not you picked too soon more or less by the amount of sap that comes out of the stem end after you pick the mango. But, seeing as how we're already into july, you can just pick whatever you want and they should ripen well.

After a decade of growing fruit trees, I've made two realizations, which I think are contrary to what many backyard fruit growers believe (including myself at one point in time):

 a) Mangoes don't have to ripen on the tree for full flavor. In fact, many mango cultivars establish better texture and flavor if picked mature green and ripened indoors. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but for the most part it holds true. You simply have to pick within the ripening window of the particular cultivar. I don't yet have a good method for determining the ripening window. I simply wait until the time frame when the cultivar typically ripens and start picking a little before then on a trial and error basis.

 b) This is not related to the present thread but: It's not possible to have a thriving and consistently productive orchard without input (unless you happen to live in an area with ideal conditions). Insecticides, fungicides, and fertilizers are essential for a productive orchard. One can mitigate the amount of input needed by building the soil, but it's definitely not a full substitute for agricultural inputs. Organic soil has its own set of problems (eg, a tendency towards manganese, potassium, and copper deficiency).

Very interesting about picking the Cogshall rock hard and green...Jeff can you post a picture of the mature green when you pick it. Mine right now are mostly green and I want to pick them before they get that internal and sometimes uneven ripening...Thanks!!

[puglvr1]

Thanks so much Jeff, as always I appreciate your input and great advise. I'll pick some today and start experimenting 

[StPeteMango]

Pickering, si. Cogshall, si. 
I've been following the suggestions here. The Cogshalls are ripening in the garage (and being gobbled up soon as they're ready). Picked a few too early; the others were picked when a red blush started developing. The ripe ones are firm, sweet, GREAT! Got 62 mangoes; four years since I planted it. The biggest ones are 17-18 ounces. Been eating 2-3 a day, sharing some with my neighbors.
My Pickering mangoes were picked (and ripened and eaten!) more than two weeks ago. Again, great taste. Nearly 40 mangoes in its fourth year.
The Graham was a near-total loss. ONE mango in its 4th year (the others fell off before reaching decent size. It was a 7 gallon too, unlike the others, which were 3 gallons. It's begging for a topworking (Pickering or Cogshall or Mallika) but I lack the confidence to try it.
One more year like this year, and I will talk myself into topworking it or planting a different tree in its spot.

[j-grow]

I am very confused by all of the cogshall comments?  Mine produces very heavily every year and I ripen them all on the tree and have no issues with the centers being soft? I wonder why?

After growing many varieties I kept only the Glenn and cogshall because they are bullet proof and produce so well

And a rosi gold because it's early .........

Hundreds of mangos on 10 ft trees ....... Very happy with them

[Cookie Monster]

what's your location? You must have soil that it likes.

I am very confused by all of the cogshall comments?  Mine produces very heavily every year and I ripen them all on the tree and have no issues with the centers being soft? I wonder why?

After growing many varieties I kept only the Glenn and cogshall because they are bullet proof and produce so well

And a rosi gold because it's early .........

Hundreds of mangos on 10 ft trees ....... Very happy with them

[j-grow]

Well .......... I just sliced up 3 of them and I stand corrected I see what you all are talking about now so mine are not exempt! Or you jinxed me but down at the tip of the bottom of the fruit they were a little darker and softer ......

Oh well ...... Delicious though

I am in Merritt island Florida btw

[merce3]

hey cookie, is pickering susceptible to jelly seed? i had one that had a good amount of internal breakdown and i'm wondering if i should pick them with only slight yellowing. i only have ~15 so i want to keep as many as possible, even if it means i don't get peak flavor (as long as it's close).

[Cookie Monster]

I've actually never seen a pickering with jelly seed. They are always firm fleshed. I always let my pickering ripen (turn yellow) on the tree. I hope your tree is indeed a pickering.

hey cookie, is pickering susceptible to jelly seed? i had one that had a good amount of internal breakdown and i'm wondering if i should pick them with only slight yellowing. i only have ~15 so i want to keep as many as possible, even if it means i don't get peak flavor (as long as it's close).