Author Topic: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?  (Read 610 times)

Melenduwir

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Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« on: April 20, 2022, 05:48:47 PM »
It seems to have existed once.  UCR link, but according to the page it's no longer available.

Any ideas where I might find this, other than trying to locate a Japanese source and getting the government to permit its importation?

How frequently do the common varieties of Poncirus Trifoliata have monoembryonic, zygotic seeds?

vnomonee

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2022, 05:56:44 PM »
Some members here have Poncirus+ which is zygotic and lacks bitter taste. I have a plant but not enough wood to share

kumin

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2022, 06:24:07 PM »
I planted a small number of Poncirus+ seeds 3 years ago. Only 1 seed produced more than one seedling. These trees are presently blooming for the first time. I hope to get a few fruit to set, to determine the degree of zygotic seedlings. The pollen parents are high percentage Poncirus hybrids, which might make an accurate determination difficult. Any extra embryos would obviously point to nucellar embryony.

Emasculated Poncirus+ flower. Anthers were removed to avoid self pollination.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 06:26:58 PM by kumin »

mikkel

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 04:28:02 AM »
Once I got seeds of this monoembryonic poncirus. But I lost them.
Maybe the UCR still sends seeds?

Till

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 04:31:16 PM »
We have always to distingiush between monoembryonic and zygotic. Yuzu is monoembryonic but mainly nucellar. So monoembryonic poncirus let us hope that it is also zygotic but it is not sure untill we have proven it. Many of my poncirus seeds were monoembryonic but I was not very successful in producing hybrids. To the contrary Calamondin is highly polyembryonic and (as it seems to me) 100% nucellar if self pollinated. Yet I got a fair number of hybrids with poncirus pollen. When poncirus pollen is applied it is sometimes also monoebryonic.
Calamondin and Yuzu are not poncirus. But what I wanted to point out is that depending on the crosses we want to make only the special cross finally proves how a plants behaves. That means: Search for monoembryonic poncirus but don't wait for one if you want to try a cross. You may have success with seamingly less suitable poncirus, also.

Melenduwir

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 07:45:19 PM »
It's very true that we should sometimes try for a cross despite the odds.  However:

1)  I regard nucellar reproduction as like a cancer for a species.  I really want to eliminate it whenever possible.
2)  I don't have enough space or resources to start hundreds, or even dozens, of seedlings in search of a successful cross.
3)  Except for parent plants that have clear and obvious physical traits (like trifoliata's three-lobed leaves), I can't distinguish crosses from non-crosses.

Still, I plan on making some implausible attempts just to see what I get.  ('Moro' Blood orange x 'Nagami' Kumquat = Bloodquat?)

Walt

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 11:45:10 PM »
I planted lots of Ponciris seeds last fall.  Most were monoembtyonic.
Bigger juicier Ponciris seeds from Kumin were mostly monoembryonic.  So were seeds from Hong's Landscape in Wichita Kansas.  Mr Hong brought a few seeds from Korea about 30 years ago.
I was sent seeds from 3 feral Trees, I forget the name but they were from the south.  Georgia or Alabama.  All monoembryonic.
Ponciris+ seedlings are on our side of the pond.  It lacks the famous Ponciris flavor and are likey monoembryonic like their mother.
I think it wouldn't be too hard to get scion wood or cuttings to root from one or more of these or others 

Melenduwir

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2022, 03:53:41 PM »
I want to keep the bitter flavor, at least in my baseline plants.  What I need are zygotic specimens.

Walt

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2022, 04:24:19 PM »
Hong's certainly has the flavor. 

mikkel

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2022, 05:51:27 PM »
I want to keep the bitter flavor, at least in my baseline plants.  What I need are zygotic specimens.

this should be easy to achieve :)

Melenduwir

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2022, 05:22:27 PM »
Easy?  How so?

Hardy Orange doesn't flower at the same time as most citrus.  I can check for zygotic seeds by having HO be the mother, and then anything nonstandard must be a cross.  I can check the crosses the same way.  But I can't think of a good way to find a purebreed, zygotic Hardy Orange, other than looking for a plant that always produces crosses and trying to self-pollinate it.

mikkel

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2022, 06:31:26 PM »
I meant it's easy to keep the bitter taste :)
You can dry and store the pollen.
Most of my poncirus seedings are actually monoembryonic, (from different sources) , I don't know why, but the polyembryonic ones have been in the minority. among some I have also found direct F1 hybrids with poncirus as mother, trifoliate but with enlarged midleaf.
The more you sow the greater chance you have to find hybrid seedlings.

Perplexed

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2022, 11:37:09 AM »
I got these seeds and they sprouted this summer, they are monoembryonic but not zygotic. They all appear to look the same, I'll let them grow out more to determine more.

Melenduwir

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2022, 03:59:06 PM »
It's worth noting that 'monoembryonic' does not mean "produces only one seedling".  There are plenty of citrus varieties that usually have only one seedling, but whose seeds contain multiple embryos.  A truly monoembryonic citrus is almost guaranteed to be zygotic.

Ilya11

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Re: Monoembryonic Hardy Orange?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2022, 03:05:36 PM »
"There are plenty of citrus varieties that usually have only one seedling, but whose seeds contain multiple embryos. "

Could you please give such example.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

 

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