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Messages - pagnr

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Just out of curiosity, if the OP of this thread had instead posted some pictures of yellowing citrus leaves and asked "is this citrus greening" and the first reply had been somebody saying that citrus greening was a conspiracy theory by Big Mango, and then people here had correctly called them out for being chock full of crap, you wouldn't be calling for the thread to be frozen, would you? Honestly if that were the original exchange, the responses in here would seem kind of tame, eh?

Just because something has unfortunately been politicized, doesn't mean that it isn't extremely relevant to what we're all trying to do here, i.e. grow fruit trees.

We don't have Citrus Greening in Australia  as of yet.
How might it get here ?
We are still importing Citrus fruit from USA. Possibly low risk / zero risk with treatment, but who knows.
Australia exports Citrus to USA in your off season, and imports in our off season. The Gap is not that great. The profits must be bigger.
A few years ago exports of Citrus to USA took a dive. The local industry went into local promotion and begged locals to buy local Citrus fruit.
Funny that they didn't ask that previously when they could sell their fruit overseas ??
Citrus canker got into the Darwin area some years back. Suspected by contaminated tools from farm workers who came in from overseas farms.
Another outbreak linked to illegally imported budwood used to start a major orchard in QLD.

Not a "conspiracy theory" as such  but the global movement of produce and workers is linked to the economic forces that further contribute to Climate Change,
above that of each persons individual consumption of goods and services and contribution to the atmosphere.
This was clearly illustrated during Covid, when supply chains went to near breaking point. Goods could not easily be moved interstate.
Another interesting case was here was when a disgruntled worker put sewing pins into punnets of strawberries. ( ps this is a strange case, want really happened is murky).
Basically the whole supply of Strawberries in Australia was shut down because they all come from 1 or 2 large farms in QLD, and trucked Australia wide.
A similar case with Canteloupe melons, Blueberries etc. Totally shut down due to contamination issues on one or two farms.
Local small scale producers of fruit and vegetables cannot often supply their local supermarkets.
It is well known that fresh grapes from this area, travel to Melbourne for supply/logistic reasons, then travel back to our shelves.
If tackling Climate Change addresses some of these issues, it will be a good thing.

Is anyone seeing a lot of (or more than in the past) water accumulation in your neighborhood?  My street never had this issue before, I specifically bought a house that wasn't in a flood zone, but this rainy season is different.  Huge puddles are flooding the streets.  It seems like climate change is here.  Also the cold weather today is strange for this time of year.

Julie, if having puddles in Miami means climate change is there, then climate change isn't 350 miles away in St pete, where there are piles of dry sand that's been blown freely by the wind because we have almost no rain at all. What used to be our lawns is now a crunchy mass of dead matter that sounds like you're walking across corn flakes.  ;D

That is Climate Change, the two events are linked.
The rain and weather patterns change or shift in time or geography, or the drought / rain cycle frequency changes.
Last Year was a very wet year here in Australia, this year it is already much drier, little rain.
Also the rain pattern here has move from winter rain to summer rain, similar to further north.
Disaster for grape and stone fruit farmers, with increased fungi and moulds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: USDA says silicon helps citrus
« on: May 26, 2023, 06:18:53 PM »
I have not understood how silica (like what composes a chemist's inert glass flask) can also be bioavailable such that plants like horsetail incorporate it in their tissues.

How about Fe Iron. It is used to make steel, but is also a component of our blood.
Most of the other minerals in our body also exist as solid rock minerals.
Calcium ends up in bones and shells, but also in other forms in the body.
Glass is inert for our perceivable time frames ? ( eye frames if you wear glasses ?? )
I have heard that a glass bottle is actually melting as you hold it, just takes millions of years to do so.
( Except if you are in a Kombi Van with a bunch of Hippies, they can sometimes see the bottle melting. )

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Breeding citrus what affects things
« on: May 26, 2023, 04:19:26 PM »
It was what I needed, thank you very much!

Thanks for that betsyjolas.

Please also see Walts expansion of the info in his post above.
Pagnr gave a lot of useful information.  I want to add a bit more.
He gave an example of a triploid hybrid with A, B, and C sets of chromosomes.  And he treated them as if each set stayed together.  In fact each set has 9 chromosomes  A1, A2, A3, etc.  B1, B2, B3, etc.  and the same for set C.
A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes are similar having evolved from an origional ancester X with chromosomes X1, X2, X3, etc.
A1, B1, and C1 are still enough alike that one can replace another and still be viable.  But they will be different enough that some, about 1/9, of the traits, will be from the the species that donated that chromosome.  So any pollen grain should have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 8, and 9 but not always from the same species.  One might be A1 B2 C3 A4, B5 C6, A7, A8, B9. o any other combination having one chromosome of each number.  A few of the combinations might not be able to survive, but most will.  A few will be what you had hoped for, or at least a step in the direction.  Most are rejects.

Now another complicacation.  A1, B1, and C1 chromosomes don't stay as they were when you started.  During the formation of pollen and egg cells crossover happen.  I don't know how often they happen in citrus but the crops I have worked usually have about 2 per chromosome per generation.

chromosome from one species has genes

chromosome from a different species has genes

after a crossover you have

This exchange usually happens on each chromosome pair per generation, in a different location each time.  So the deck slowly gets shuffled/

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Big problem with bees
« on: May 26, 2023, 04:00:52 PM »
Went to use the Weber kettle BBQ and discovered a huge hive of bees taking up 80% of the space between grill and cover.

Any ideas on how to deal with it????


Weber has a solid warranty.  ;D

I think you could sell that " retired bbq / bee hive " to some Vegetarians.
As a vegetarian myself, I find it amusing.

It might be useful to present the info in various ways, like increasing cold hardiness, as well as % zygotic seed in different tables ( or a search criteria ).

Citrus General Discussion / Re: USDA says silicon helps citrus
« on: May 26, 2023, 04:24:09 AM »
Is this in response to Greening / HLB ??
Interesting how this is now accepted and promoted by mainstream Ag.
20 years ago this would have been a fringe kook idea.
Silicon is an essential plant nutrient, not often present or accounted for in many fertilisers.
It has been well recognised in many alternative / organic agriculture circles.

Wondering if anyone can ID this Australian Nutbush ?

I'm thinking of creating an aerocloner.

I do not have the rootstock to graft all the varieties I want and frankly I'm nervous of grafting as I've never done it.

I don't do much grafting. I mainly do chip budding and t budding which are much simpler.
I have also used grafting machines, and found them quite useful.
They are relatively inexpensive on Ali Express. Along with budding knives and tape.
You still need some skill in working out where to make the cuts and using the budding tape.
That comes with practice. You need to get your eye in,  as they say and that only comes with repeated attempts.
Same with using the tape, after a while it becomes automatic.
Things are much simpler since Buddy Tape and Para Film ( nursery type ) came along.
I suggest growing out some Citrus seed like lemon or valencia orange or tangelo, and practice on them.
You can just graft a scion from each seedling back to itself for practice. Or cut a bud stick from one seedling etc.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Good resource for grafting?
« on: May 23, 2023, 04:29:09 AM »
The Grafter's Handbook by R J Garner, who was also an author of The Propagation of Tropical Fruit Trees.
More crop specific but lots of detailed grafting drawings etc.
Many other Horticulture textbooks also have sections on grafting. Worth going to an Ag College Library to browse.
Sometimes the diagrams in some will make it much clearer than those in others.

Interesting thread. I am in a Citrus and grapevine growing area with hot summers.
The established Citrus groves are much more shady than the rows of grapevines.
Citrus trees would be self shading when older, and parts or sides of the tree would be more or less heavily shaded as the sun moves over the day.
A few people have put full shade covers over Citrus groves, probably 20% shade weave also for hail protection and wind protection.

Overall, I would say morning sun, afternoon shade, more so in hotter climates.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Pumice Alternatives SoCal
« on: May 20, 2023, 01:50:00 AM »
I can't even find large quantities for sale in PHX. A local nursery near me sells it at $10 a 5gallon bucket but they seem to be out. Probably going to have to special order large quantities through my local hydroponics shop

Do you not have larger bulk gravel, sand and landscaping suppliers in the area, ie gravel driveways and front lawn alternatives ?

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Wanted: Shikuwasa in CA
« on: May 19, 2023, 10:15:37 PM »
It's on CCPP list to be released soon. Then you can order budwood.

For someone not familiar with budding / grafting Citrus, does that mean trees will be available for purchase from registered sources soon after the budwood release ??

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Pumice Alternatives SoCal
« on: May 19, 2023, 08:39:07 PM »
Any inert rock minerals with the same particle sizes will do the same thing.
Perlite floats to the surface with watering.
Pumice is very light, floats less and will lessen the weight of pots or density of garden beds.
Some people even use expanded styrofoam beads, ie from before compression to styro boxes, or bean bag pellets. These float out on the surface.
Aquarium gravel is similar particle sizes to pumice and as inert and non toxic. Zeolite has positive benefits in cycling nutrients.
Granite and Basalt gravels can contribute useful minerals.
Charcoal is similar density to pumice, but may be alkaline, affecting pH at high rates. Maybe ok in acid soils.
Fired clay beads or bits are also a possibility.
Graded pine bark, say 5mm to 10 mm is also in the particle size range.
Any gravels that contribute excess minerals ( ie limestone, high in Calcium Magnesium, raises pH ), or other Volcanics high in Zinc, Manganese etc might be avoided.

Human Urine looks better on paper than sea water to me. 

Even easier to get than ocean water.

Well you could double your options by collecting your seawater from a crowded beach, where people pee in the water. Maybe close to the Soda Pop stand ???

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Use aquarium water for plants
« on: May 19, 2023, 04:12:06 PM »
This article about using seawater came up on another topic, post from Daintree.

Topic is here,

Huh. Who'da thunk?
When in doubt, check with your local university!


Thanks for that, the article is a pretty clear explanation of how and why.
I noticed this point in it.

Pour the collected water into a large bowl and allow it to sit, uncovered, for 24 hours. This allows evaporation, aeration, concentration of solids, and the inoculation of airborne microor- ganisms to occur.

Seems like it is not only the minerals involved but also microbe stimulation.
I remember reading info from Japanese version of "Korean natural farming".
The diluted seawater was used there too, along with local microbe cultures and rice microbe brewing.
If I remember OK, they said to collect the seawater offshore where the ocean colour changed to darker ( oxygen ?).
Is that is so " You're going to need a bigger boat "

For those not near the ocean, I am wondering how Marine Aquarium water from changes could be used, or simply the salt for mixing the clean refill water for those without fish.
I get the benefit of the other sea minerals, and also how they are in balance for living cells etc ( we all came from the ocean ).
Still wonder about the Na and Cl in there, but maybe worth investigating.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Variegated sport on my Cara Cara
« on: May 19, 2023, 05:13:51 AM »
I think it applies more to the case where the variegation is unstable or cyclic, not regular variegation patterns like green centre, yellow margins on every leaf.
Where the variegation phases or cycles, some parts of one shoot, and different leaves, will be more or less heavily variegated.
In those cases it may be better to choose greener buds, which can become more variegated shoots later.
Highly variegated parts may not get back to being more green later on, and lack growth ability.
I have also found various variegated sports over the years, but most simply gave up or got taken over by regular new shoots from below.
Probably I would hedge my bets and multi bud each rootstock with variegated buds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Variegated sport on my Cara Cara
« on: May 18, 2023, 04:02:31 AM »
I was advised that to successfully bud graft a variegated Citrus, you should choose buds with 50 to 70 % green, not the highly non pigmented parts of the stick.
They will stagnate after shooting out.
It probably depends on the pattern of variegation, ie wether it is regular or variable.

Recently I have been wrapping the clean seed in a moist kitchen paper towel, slightly wet the paper towel then scrunch it around the seed. Then into a zip lock bag.
Best if the seed is clean of any fruit flesh.
This stops the seed drying out in open storage, and seems to wake it into pre germination.
There are also hot water treatments for prevention of seed infection by fungi, used by commercial growers.
Many Avocado rootstock growers plant the seed in tall pots or bags, rather than flats.
For those seed with a pointy end, plant point up, usually part in / part out of the mix.
For rounder seed, plant point up if you can tell, otherwise the top of the seed is where it was inside the fruit.

The many different methods will work.

Another approach was the one by my friend Dave, from Tropical Nth Qld.
He lives in a open side house in the jungle.
Basically he threw any Avocado seed as far as he could, out through the open kitchen window into the jungle.
He was originally American, and must have learnt to pitch at different bases, because last time I saw him he had quite a wide spread of fruiting Avocado trees coming along.

The Botanical Legacy of Ying Doon Moy

Thank You for this link. It was very inspirational to learn about the work of Ying Doon Moy.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: cracks in rootstock after freeze
« on: May 12, 2023, 12:03:53 PM »
Some photos would help to get a better idea of the problem.

ES is not actually a salt, it's magnesium sulfate and beneficial to plants/soil. The amount you use is probably too much of a good thing

Just a small point, it is a nutrient as you say, but it behaves as a salt with an EC.
If NaCl is salt, KCl and CaCl also behave as salts, as does MgCl, MgSO4 ( magnesium sulphate ), and all similar structured compounds.
If you use these nutrients excessively, or make very strong liquid fertiliser solutions, the EC ( salt effect ) will be very high.
The advantage of MgSO4 to NaCl in tree removal is probably that the MgSo4 will eventually be utilised as a nutrient, whereas the NaCl is required in far smaller amounts, and has well known negative effects if out of balance.( ie salinity )

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Help me pick a mandarin / satsuma
« on: May 10, 2023, 07:39:11 AM »
If you need the advice of an expert, try this guy.

Generally there are two types of mango strains as far as seeds are concerned.
One strain produces polyembryonic clonal seed, identical to the fruiting tree. These can be identified by having multiple shoots or seedlings coming out of the one seed.
The other strain of mango produces seed with one zygotic embryo per seed, and one seedling per seed.
If your mango seed has multiple shoots, most will be clones.
If your mango seed has one shoot, it is most likely zygotic, and not 100% true to the parent.
This will vary according to the mango variety.
Recent hybrid zygotic types may produce more variable seedlings than other types.
Overall there is a fair chance your mango seedling will be in the ballpark of the fruit it came out of.

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