Author Topic: Not enough Durian Discussion  (Read 54295 times)

cassowary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • Australia FNQ 13a Tropical Monsoon
    • View Profile
    • cassowaryseeds
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #500 on: March 22, 2023, 04:57:01 PM »
Manure should be fine once it's well composted (even herbicides compost). For me where I live it is more affordable with fresh tree loppers mulch and composted tree loppers mulch. Easy to buy by the tonne, manure not so easy to by by the tonne and I also can't stand working with that shit, not good to breath in the dust and can't buy it composted here either.

Wow good to hear Whitmans son is going for it!

Monocrop owners could to alley cropping with native palms and syzygiums for the bats, the palms flower all around the year so keeps a feed for them so that they stick around. But with cheap human slaves/workers, natures original workers get pushed out.

Peace
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
Seed shop and Seed exchange

Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #501 on: March 22, 2023, 07:52:14 PM »
Real good idea, Casowary, to plant palms for bats.
Peter

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #502 on: March 31, 2023, 01:29:50 AM »
I have posted two photos of my P88. One the first photo, there are two branches growing from near the base on either side that are growing well. My feeling is that I should keep them. Will they be able to bear fruit? On the second photo, there is a lateral branch on the left hand side that is growing almost vertically. My feeling is I should cut it out. What is your opinion?





TropicalFruitHunters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
    • USA, Columbus, OH, xxxxx Zone 5b
    • View Profile
    • Tropical Fruit Hunters
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #503 on: March 31, 2023, 07:28:33 AM »
Nice looking trees.
First pic:  Are those branches above the graft?  If below, definitely cut.  I think rule-of-thumb is first branch 21"-30" up...or there abouts.
Second pic:  That vertical branch looks like a nice and thick.  The one below looks mighty thin and doesn't look to be another above that one oriented in that direction for quite a ways.  Could try putting some anchors in the ground and pulling/training the branch to be more horizontal.
Just my two cents.

Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #504 on: March 31, 2023, 09:17:46 AM »
The trees look to be growing nicely.
In the second photo I would definitely remove that branch. It wants to take over and the whole shape will get complicated.
The other tree needs more thought, assuming that the branches are all above the graft. Eventually I would remove them but their foliage is supporting a healthy development right now. I might cut them back a foot or so.
Personally, I would top both of these trees. I think that makes the branches thicker and encourages a better shape.
Peter

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #505 on: March 31, 2023, 11:29:39 AM »
Thanks TropicalFruitHunters and Peter. The branches are all growing above the graft. Just to be clear, it's the same tree but from different angles.

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #506 on: April 02, 2023, 07:21:07 AM »
Slowly working on shaping my durian trees. Here is a PK durian. It has a branch (second branch from the left) which is competing with the main leader. This branch also has a lateral crossing with another branch. My feeling is I should cut the branch second from the left out. Pains me since it does have some nice lateral branches. It's never going to get easier so I'll do it this week if it's a good idea. What are people's opinions?


Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #507 on: April 02, 2023, 09:21:08 AM »
Every situation is unique to some degree. For the long term, all those three branches are too low if you are striving for a shape with a central leader with horizontal branches. So if you agree with that then keep it in mind while shaping this tree although that would come later since you want to maintain lots of foliage to keep the tree developing as quickly as possible.
So you could remove that branch or you could cut it back just above where it might have a branch that is growing more laterally. This is not always a perfect solution but it could be a good experience to note how it responds.
Peter

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #508 on: April 02, 2023, 08:45:23 PM »
Thanks Peter. Maybe I should have pruned of the competing branch months ago. As you say, it's a learning experience for me. Regarding the 2 lower branches, I know they are quite low but since they are growing at a 45 degree angle, I would have thought they would still be able to hold fruit. Is the problem that they will interfere with horizontal branches coming from the central leader?

Also, regarding topping of the tree below, how far down from the central tip would you cut? I did end up topping the seedling tree I posted a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday, I also tied down some of the lower branches to try to develop more horizontal growth. Quite happy with the shape of that tree now.

Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #509 on: April 03, 2023, 03:42:20 PM »
Regarding the topping of the tree you want to cut just above a branch likely to be a strong replacement leader. There looks to be one about 2’ down but it’s hard to say from here. Maybe you could cut off less but don’t pick a weak or dormant looking branch to be the highest remaining branch.  Make sure you eliminate the branch growing up at 45 before you top the tree as that one will want to take over.

So the thing is with the very low branches the fruits might be on the ground if the flowers get pollinated. They might not get air circulation, etc.  leave them for now just to provide more photo synthesis at this point.
Peter

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #510 on: April 10, 2023, 08:25:45 PM »
Thanks for the information Peter. Here is a photo of my oldest seedling tree. I did end up topping it and I have tied down some of the lower branches to promote more horizontal growth. Quite happy with this tree now.


0hip

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • Australia, Townsville, QLD, 11b
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #511 on: April 10, 2023, 11:20:23 PM »
does anyone know if wrapping the trunk with newspaper in winter will help protect young trees? is this method just used to protect from frost or does it also work with less than optimal temperatures. We only get a few days of the year below 10 degrees and around 7 degrees lowest usually. the 1 coldest ever temperature was 1 degree in 1984 and its been 19 years since the temp hit 5 degrees. it survived fine but i just want to protect it incase it gets colder.

 its in a shade tent with 70% shade cloth over it. will this be sufficient to protect it or should i invest in some plastic sheet to cover it with for the colder nights. also if i do use newspaper to protect the trunk do you need to remove it each day or just leave it on?

Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #512 on: April 11, 2023, 09:21:57 AM »
Looks good fruit nerd!

jimreevescairns

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
    • Cairns, Far North Queensland
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #513 on: April 17, 2023, 07:51:22 AM »
Interesting reading the pruning discussions recently - plan to prune my newer grafts differently. I found this you tube video that discusses pruning the laterals to end up with more horizontal laterals. I have generally tied mine and pulled them down. This guy does it differently
The language isn’t English but it’s pretty self explanatory

https://youtu.be/L1HUxyxkoYc

Anybody do this ?
Cheers
Jim

cassowary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • Australia FNQ 13a Tropical Monsoon
    • View Profile
    • cassowaryseeds
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #514 on: April 17, 2023, 08:46:46 PM »
Fruit nerd,
As the tree grows it will automatically terminate some of the lateral branches because they are quite close to each other in the vertical plane.
Tree's do this throughout their life.

So eventually (aprox 20 years) you will have more like 60cm-1m in the vertical plane between laterals (this is dependent of total sun exposure, surrounding tree's etc.). I let the tree terminate laterals itself since the extra leaf area (from small laterals) promotes to thicken the tree girth (while alive) which will make a strong trunk and usually contributes to faster fruiting. It's important to maximize photosynthesis, farmers are photosynthesis managers in one way. Cutting of leaf's reduces photo syn.

It's true that pruning laterals often gives more girth to the remaining laterals since they get more sun exposure but this can cause very vigorous laterals, not to good in windy areas. The girth of laterals and the main trunk should not be similar to each other.

Jim,
In that video he basically takes of laterals that have grown to vigorous in the vertical plane. it would be better to weight them down as you suggest or simply just wait for the pull of the earth to take them closer to ground, fruit load will help that too. Pruning like that will lead to a loot of shoot growth and you just set yourself up for a lot of future pruning. Those laterals should have been corrected earlier when they where younger.

ohip,
Leave the paper on, no worries.
You could even put paper and mound up arborist mulch around the trunk, it will keep it really comfy.
Don't worry about fungus, it won't damage the trunk in normal circumstances. Just take it of when the newspaper is not keeping a barrier between the trunk and the woodchips.
But I doubt this method will work long term.

Placing some black rocks around the tree will increase night time temp around roots and air and if you put a little pond in front of the sun exposure you will have good reflection during the day to increase canopy temp. the pond will also moderate the temp of the air passing through.
A little wind break on the S-SW side would help to reduce wind but not reduce sun to much since it's moving past N.
Cold winds are a main issue.
I have issue here with hot winds so plant gingers on S-SW side (S face). And keeping the N face open to maximum sun exposure. That's when plants are small. When they are big there is usually a inga or other fabace on the S face. On really young durian I have to plant shade on the N face to reduce burning but this get's cut out eventually.
Start measuring brix of your leaf's and try to increase it, it will increase the freezing point of the sap.

If you use plastic you will likely reduce brix levels of the sap since the suns light will be reduces and filtered. But if you put plastic why not pump some Co2 in there, create some Jurassic mega fauna conditions and grow your durian like crazy!

I am still hoping that some Dutch plastic house farmer will grow durian like he does tomatoes!

Finca,
agree low hanging fruit might not have the best conditions. Here there is an issue with the fruit spotting bug and they don't fly to well so low small fruits get stung the most.

Peace
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
Seed shop and Seed exchange

0hip

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • Australia, Townsville, QLD, 11b
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #515 on: April 18, 2023, 03:29:09 AM »
Actually found a video of a durian orchard in a greenhouse. This is one of the better durian channels as they usually have English subtitles. Seem to really know what they are talking about.

https://youtu.be/MDYggI_7oBw

fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #516 on: April 18, 2023, 06:04:43 AM »
Cassowary,thanks for the information. I don't want to prune my trees too heavily. Most of the pruning I have done so far is removing low branches and cutting out competing vertical branches. I did have a fungus issue on two trees during the wet season and getting the leaves off the ground/grass was important. I will start training more branches soon.

0hip, durian in a greenhouse would be awesome. Would be great to have the resources!

jimreevescairns

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
    • Cairns, Far North Queensland
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #517 on: April 24, 2023, 06:12:40 PM »
I agree Cassawory. I think I am going to have to do it a bit though - I’ve been a bit slack with the big red prawn …. It’s difficult getting up there to pull the higher branches down once the trees are a few metres high. Some of the more vertical laterals up high have good sized branches coming off them so I will do a few like that.
I’ve never worried too much about clearing out the area around the trunk for access but as my trees are all getting bigger I’m understanding how important it is to have plenty of space and easy access into the area around the trunk for ladders etc. it’s one of the reasons I’ve been a bit late getting in there with my older trees.
Important for me because I have allowed laterals to grow as low as 50cm from the ground.

cassowary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • Australia FNQ 13a Tropical Monsoon
    • View Profile
    • cassowaryseeds
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #518 on: April 26, 2023, 04:05:46 AM »
Was it Rhizoctonia solani?

Yeah having space for a ladder is really important for me too, hard access just makes it a drag to pick fruit!

Ohh no, Durian in a plastic house! I bet they want organic cert for premium prices and this is the only way they can get something to harvest without pesticides. Soon there might be hydroponic like tomatoes and the taste will be like cassava tainted with sweaty socks. No more fluffy pillows folks!

This is money farming, or bank farming as you pretty much always will need a huge mortgage to start this. Banks aren't happy with people picking durian in ancient food forests.
In 15 years there will be a lot of plastic and rusting steel to deal with... They probably will just digg a hole or burn it...
This is for the Chinese market most likely as the host talks about overseas investment. They are driving the Durian economy like never before.
Durian is adapted to the area, it's not iceberg lettuce! Bro come on!

This might just be a experimental project but It would be interesting to see if they can achieve higher profit margin then the standard orchard over 15 years. I wounder where their break even point price is per kilo of durian??
If it's an area where you get annual floods that are considerable then choose a species that is suitable and not durian, where have common sense gone? And when you mound soil the soil will get dry in times when there is no flooding so irrigation is needed, it's not an efficient use of resources to try and grow durian like this.

Peace

« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 04:28:06 AM by cassowary »
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
Seed shop and Seed exchange

0hip

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • Australia, Townsville, QLD, 11b
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #519 on: May 07, 2023, 07:06:30 PM »
I put the plastic on my shade house to turn it into a greenhouse and have found out a few things. It heats up very quickly in the sun. Almost 40°C and 90% humidity by 8:30am so it’s only needed for the nighttime really. Also it dosent actually keep warm overnight. To keep it warm I’ve ordered some fairy/Christmas lights to drape over the trees and they should produce enough heat to kee them warm overnight. I may not even need the plastic covered just rely on the lights. The lights won’t arrive for a few weeks as they are hard To come by. Most countries have phased out incandescent Christmas lights and the LED won’t produce any heat so I had to order some from overseas.

 Im getting deformed growth on my new shoots on almost every leaf of my durian. Is this a nutrient deficiency or is it being burnt by too much sun? It’s covered in 70% shade cloth so I wouldent have thought it was the sun. Any help would be appreciated.














fruit nerd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • Australia, FNQ, 13a
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #520 on: May 07, 2023, 11:32:36 PM »
I have one durian that has leaves similar to what is shown in the photos. This particular durian developed this in the shade too (before being planted in the orchard). In my case, I'm not sure what the issue is since I have treated the same as all my other durians the same. Another durian has had some leaf drop recently and also has some deformed new leaves (but not curled like yours or the durian I previously mentioned). For this durian, I believe heat/intense sun is the culprit (we had one day get up around 37C with clear skies here in April, pretty sure it didn't like that). It's one year old with no shade cloth, probably needs more protection.

cassowary

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • Australia FNQ 13a Tropical Monsoon
    • View Profile
    • cassowaryseeds
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #521 on: May 10, 2023, 11:03:09 PM »
ohip,
good on you for setting all that up for durian! I am sure you'll be rewarded one day!

I think that looks more like some form of parasitic bacteria or fungus but I am unsure, is there discoloration too? You got them under the shade cloth so I doubt it would be sun burn. Did you have any strong dry wind?

If it is dehydration from wind/sun then there might be something that reduces the osmosis in the soil for the plant so that it can't get enough sap to the new leaf's, maybe some parasite on the roots? Over application of salt fertilizer can draw water out of the plant, you can check that by checking the electro conductance of the soil. IDK, But I wouldn't be to worried about it unless it keeps happening over an over and general health starts going down.
CASSOWARYSEEDS.COM
Seed shop and Seed exchange

ben mango

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #522 on: May 11, 2023, 01:19:19 PM »
I was noticing in Thailand most durian farms around chanthaburi don’t even bother with shading the young trees once they get planted in the ground. The trees didn’t necessarily look very happy but I figure they know what they are doing and that eventually the trees will snap out of it and start growing better. Of course every location is different , I think if you are closer to the ocean durian are sensitive to the winds and salt in the air. I saw some durian farms on Koh chang that were probably only a few hundred yards from the ocean and yet were healthy with a lot of fruit.

TropicalFruitHunters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
    • USA, Columbus, OH, xxxxx Zone 5b
    • View Profile
    • Tropical Fruit Hunters
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #523 on: May 11, 2023, 07:22:08 PM »
Hey Ben, good observation.  I didn't see many locations shading either.  Must be acclimating their trees in pots while preparing the land.  Most trees looked good.  I had mentioned that I saw lots of older trees that were dead or dying.  I'm betting most of these were from disease.  However, my wife was reading an article over here that said people were poisoning durian trees.  Yeah.  Someone gets pissed off at a neighbor or whatever reason, and decides they are going to kill a bunch of their durian trees.  Nice, eh?

Finca La Isla

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2124
    • Costa Rica, Southern Caribbean coast
    • View Profile
    • finca la isla
Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #524 on: May 12, 2023, 09:12:18 AM »


So these guys in Malaysia plant with shade on mounds. Their nursery was under shade cloth and I didn’t see any adaptations to full sun going on. The trees are cleft grafted when small like I do but we introduce our durian trees to sunlight before planting out. We also plant the young trees in between gliricidia stakes for some shade initially.
Peter