The Tropical Fruit Forum

Doesn't look like mesta to me which are similar in shape to the standards. It looks like the Borneo pointed types which have larger fruit, fewer seeds and are more acidic.

Well, the caption next to the picture in the book said it was 'mesta'. I suppose the authors could have misidentified it. Mangosteens are an obscure fruit and most people do not know that much about them; confusion and misidentification is fairly common.

By the time the fruit hardens that much don't bother opening it because it will not be any good inside.

Not true. The shell can be as hard as wood and still be ok to eat inside. However, at that point it probably doesn't have long to go.
The typical mangosteen you will find imported into the U.S. (if you're lucky enough to ever see one) will have a pretty hard shell. Maybe not quite literally as hard as wood, but still just a bit difficult to open with a knife. I mean harder than the outer shell of a cantaloupe melon.
It's a small wonder that mangosteen shell can go from being so soft to so hard over such a short length of time. Fresh mangosteen shell (i.e. the pericarp) can be kind of spongy, and quirts out dark red juice that stains. This juice is astringent but is supposed to be high in antioxidants and very healthy for making a tea out of. I personally do not find the juice that astringent, and it retains a little bit of the mangosteen flavor. The pericarp also contains essential oils that supposedly can cure all sorts of skin conditions. If you get a fresh mangosteen picked right off the tree, it really is pretty effortless to pull apart the shell with your hands. If it's not that fresh, you will need a really good knife to open it, a serrated knife, because you're going to be sawing at it.

Growing cherries as well as tropical fruits. That way I'm hedging my bets and can't lose. Whether it's a warmer or colder winter than usual, at least some of the trees will be spectacularly productive here.

(For those who don't know, stone fruits are really on the edge here since we don't receive enough chill hours, usually they will only produce a nice flush after a particularly cold winter, it seems like, and yes I'm working with low chill varieties)

Got a Pisang Ceylon banana, Oroblanco grapefruit, and a lychee tree. Of course mandarins are no problem here.

Actually lychees like just a tiny bit of chill (less than 150 hours), it helps them be more productive. I probably could grow Pomelo but it wouldn't be as sweet as Oroblanco in this climate. Oroblanco is close to a pomelo though, in every way except for size.

One excellent plum variety that I want to mention is Rene Claude Doree. It's a green gauge variety which may not look like much but has superb taste. This variety is lower chill than many others, and I believe that it will produce okay in zone 9b, just south of Tampa.

What's the chill hour requirement? Can it be grown in a chill-free zone? I know that's the case with low-chill apples, pears and stonefruit, with an up to 200 hour requirement (the lower the better), but I'm not sure about Quince.

I believe quince can be grown in zone 10, although it's not as productive. It prefers zone 9. However, the quince in Mexico may be in an altogether different category, as it has adapted to some extent to local climatic conditions over the course of many generations of being grown there (very often being propagated by seed). Something peculiarly interesting, unlike other quince varieties, 'Karp's Sweet' does not appear to behave deciduously here, not losing its leaves in the winter.

Some people have noted that Karp's Sweet does not appear to be as productive, in terms of fruit, as other varieties, but that could just be because it is a hardier variety, so it could take more years until it becomes more productive. Fruit trees whose growth is stunted (e.g. by rootstock) tend to be more precocious, producing fruit at an earlier age. (of course the growth being stunted too much isn't a good thing either) The point is that Karp's Sweet appears to have adapted to the semi-tropical climate where its lineage existed for many generations, so maybe, I would speculate, there is less of a need for it to go through a cycle of dormancy in order for it to be productive. This would likely be true for many other Latin American quinces as well, though I do not have any experience with them.

One thing I will say is that quince stands up better to heat and dry conditions than apple, so it is particularly suitable to Southern California in that sense. A quince tree can also be fairly drought tolerant after it has had time to become established.

Conversely, quince is very prone to disease in climates with high heat combined with high humidity. All this is not surprising when you consider the part of the world where quince comes from. Quince can be grown as far north as Maine or Nova Scotia however.

Hybrid between Quince and Pear

In 1855 the nurseryman Louis Boisbunel in the Rouen region of France was successfully able to crossbred quince with pear. The resulting pear variety was named Passé Crassane, and was later used to breed many other fine tasting pear varieties. I actually have a Passé Crassane tree, by the way.

"...the passé-crassane, is actually a pear-quince hybrid that was developed in Normandy. It is particularly useful in cooking because of its firm, grainy flesh, but it is also tasty eaten raw."

The 150 Healthiest Foods on Earth: The Surprising, Unbiased Truth about What You Should Eat and Why, by Jonny Bowden, p144

While I haven't actually got any fruit yet from my tree, from the pictures I've seen it certainly looks like it might be a hybrid from the shape and slightly more yellowish color (though there are plenty of pear varieties which are yellow).

Here is a picture of a Passe Crassane: http://www.arboreumco.com/store/products/passe-crassane

They can develop a much more yellow color if allowed to ripen further on the tree: http://www.mouneyracfreres.com/en/img/produits/cat_p1_passecrassane_img.png

I found a random mention in a wine blog that stated "It smells like quinces and pears, especially the Passe-Crassane pear..." so I am assuming this implies that the Passe Crassane at least has a note of quince in its aroma.

I found this in another blog: "Finally, we get to the Passe Crassane – my all time favourite pear which comes into season in December – they are exquisite in mulled wine. They come from the Rouen region and retain the most juice and best flavour of all pears. Again location is key and, for me, these pears are always better from the Paris area than from the Alps. These pears ripen over time and the stems are sealed with a blob of wax so that they will continue to ripen and won’t dry out. It’s this that helps to keep the flavour and juiciness of the Passe Crassane pear all winter." http://www.wellocks.co.uk/flavours-of-deme-of-the-year/

I have also done some research into grafting compatibilities, and Passe Crassane happens to be one of the few pear varieties that is considered compatible on quince rootstock, so that at least is consistent with it supposedly being a hybrid.

I have more to say on the variety Passe Crassane (and other pears that are descended from it) but I will elaborate further in a separate post.

Another documented pear-quince hybrid is "Pyronia veitchii", which can be mail ordered from some nurseries. There are even different established cultivars of this intergeneric species, like 'Luxemburgiana'. There's plenty of pictures on the internet.

Pyronia veitchii resulted from a cross between the pear 'Bergamotte Esperen' (seed-parent) and the Portugal quince (pollinator).
The cross was made in 1895 by hybridiser John Seden, who was employed by the Veitch family who ran the famous nursery in England that bears their name.

The famed plant breeder Luther Burbank had made an attempt at crossbreeding quince with pear, but most of the seedlings had stunted growth, and after grafting some cuttings onto an apple tree for a few years he was unable to obtain any fruit. (Luther Burbank: Methods and Discoveries 4: 138-140, (1914))

I found another old reference that describes a quince-pear hybrid that produced seedless fruit:

“The form of the fruit is unusual and characteristic, cylindrical, slightly longer than broad, with a short peduncle arising from a shallow cavity, the eye situated in a deep basin, open, the calyx lobes persistent. The skin is thick, rough, green or yellowish-green, abundantly covered with red dots like that of a pear. The flesh is white, granular, firm, juicy, sweet, slightly acidulous with an agreeable quince-like perfume. The season of ripening is October and November. The fruits which I have eaten were picked before they were fully ripe; the flesh was pleasantly flavored but firm as in a half-ripe pear. When cooked, the fruits seemed to be intermediate in character between a pear and a quince.

In 1915 an attempt was made to pollinate flowers of [this quince-pear hybrid] with pollen from various pears, but no fruits were obtained. I did not attempt to pollinate with quince pollen, though that might offer a better chance of success.

The character of the ovules, six in each locule, arranged in two series of three, one superposed upon the other, seems to bring [this hybrid] nearer to Cydonia (quince) than to Pyrus (pear).”

The Journal of Heredity (1916), Pyronia, article by Dr. L. Trabut, Botanist of the Government of Algeria


Hybrid between Quince and Apple



This picture was taken from a Czech site, from a breeding research program, with the title "Cydomalus" and caption "Malus domestica x Cydonia oblonga ".

"Slightly more than 50% of the F2 seedlings were found to be allotriploids (3x = 2n = 51), the rest were found to be tetraploids (4x = 2n = 68). Most of the allotriploids resembled quince morphologically. All these plants formed only single-flowered inflorescences and set mostly seedless quince-type fruits. About 15% of the allotriploids displayed apple-like characters and had seedless fruit with intermediate taste. Inflorescences of this group had up to five flowers, but the majority had two to three flowers. All allotriploids produced slightly viable pollen. Allotetraploid (4x = 2n = 68) hybrids position is intermediate between the diploids and triploids. It mainly consists of large pollen grains of probably diploid (2x = 34) genotype. The other part of pollen is smaller in size, maybe haploid (x = 17), but very small sterile grains also occurred. Germination percentage […] was close to 50%. Fruits were flat-rounded, yellow with dense pulp, containing normally developed seeds (up to 25), most which germinated well. "

The paper went on to say that for the F3 generation has been grown on its own roots but after 10 years of age they had not produced fruits. Not surprising, since genetic incompatibilities can often not show up until the third generation.

The paper gives a description of an apple-like triploid hybrid: “Fruits ripen at the end of June to July. The fruit weight varies from 120 to 320 g. Skin colour is yellow, sometimes a little pink on the sunny side. Flesh is yellowish, juicy, sour-sweet”

"Genotypic variation in apple × quince progenies", I.S. Rudenko and I.I. Rudenko. Progress in Temperate Fruit Breeding, Volume 1 of the series Developments in Plant Breeding, pp 229-233


Hybrid between Apple and Pear

In the 1980’s Max Zwintzscher was the first to report obtaining a fertile F2 plant from an F1 hybrid between Malus domestica and Pyrus communis. This was seen as a big breakthrough.

While France is famed for its quince, I would not think you would find the quince that is suitable for eating raw there. From what I've heard, the softest least astringent varieties come from the area around the Black Sea (in Russia, and maybe to a lesser extent Turkey) and in Latin America (Mexico, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Peru). Climate also makes a big difference, quince ripens most fully in warm climates with long summer heat, that's when the quince will become its softest, most aromatic, least astringent, and sweetest. The south of France is certainly not a bad place to grow quince, but it's not as good as somewhere like Mexico.

Probably the best one out of the ordinary varieties for trying to eat raw, and the one I suspect you have eaten, is "Orange" quince. While it's not terrible for eating raw, it's not as palatable as Aromatnaya (Russian variety from the Black Sea). Karp's Sweet (which originated from the Majes valley in Peru) is supposed to be on a whole different level, very close to the level of a Granny Smith apple, when it's at its best (grown somewhere like Southern California or Mexico). 

In the hot dry climate where you live, that cherry tree definitely needs a bigger pot to give the root system more access to moisture in the soil. Otherwise it will dry out. Also make sure you are using the type of soil that will retain water well (loamy soil, I recommend compost with a small amount of thick wood chips in there, not redwood chips; decaying wood can act as a sponge for water).

Most likely, Stella will rarely ever produce fruit in zone 10. For Lapins, I have read reports that the fruit production in zone 10 will be off and on, typically producing every other year, though the crops are not that big.

I am growing a Bing, just as an experiment. It may never produce fruit here, but it seems to be growing pretty good and it already put out 11 blossoms in its second year. Might have to graft on a different variety if it doesn't produce fruit by 5 years. Though I did see in another forum someone (close to where I live) got 12 cherries from an ultra-dwarf Bing in a pot, which was encouraging.

One word of advice I can give you, which I think will be very helpful, move the pot under partial shade during both the Winter (December to the beginning of February) and during the Summer (middle of May to the beginning of September). In Winter this will help increase the effective amount of chill accumulation the plant experiences, while in Summer it will help prevent the leaves from getting dried out and baked in the scorching sun. In my experience, cherry tree leaves are not able to handle intense sun in hot dry conditions as well as other stone fruit trees (sweet cherry originates from another part of the world with a more northerly temperate climate). Trying to grow cherry in climate zone 10 can be just as challenging (maybe more) as many other kinds of tropical fruit here.

Is anyone here growing 'Karp's Sweet' Quince? (It's supposedly the best variety for eating raw, but only when grown in warm climates like Southern California)

I have a tree but it has not produced fruits yet. And I haven't heard any updates from anyone else about this variety for several years.
Anyone growing it and can comment on the fruit?


By the way, if you're in a more northern climate, the best varieties are probably Krimskaya and Aromatnaya, the latter of which is a bit softer but not as good flavor.

Quince has an amazing aroma, for those of you who may not know, and the flavor of the raw fruit is unique. Of course, quince is usually dense, spongy, and most often too astringent to eat raw. It's important to point out though that some varieties are better than others in this regard, and the level of ripeness which the fruit attains can make a big difference. Trying to eat raw quince is not for everyone, but supposedly the variety Karp's Sweet could change all that. In Latin American countries quince is typically sliced very thin and served with a chili vinegar sauce with crushed peanuts. I also think the quinces grown in Latin American countries tend to be less astringent than the traditional normal American varieties, but that could just be the warmer climate. It's hard to know since quince in Latin America are very often heirloom varieties grown from seed.

The store is in Singapore.

It is possible to grow Mangosteen in San Diego, near the Southern California coast, but the seedlings need to spend the first five or so years of their life inside a humid greenhouse, and after that they need to be covered with shade cloth, especially during the summer. They require constant attention to make sure they are always kept adequately watered, and it is important to choose a type of soil that retains water well. The spot where it is planted is very important, ideally up against a south-facing brick wall, in a spot it will stay warm in the winter, but also surrounded in close proximity by other plants, that will help filter out some of the sunlight and help increase the humidity level a little bit in that spot. For example, perhaps right behind and a little bit to the side of a banana plant. A nearby pool of water would probably also help. They cannot survive in full sun in this climate, but it is still important to choose a warm spot. Surrounding plants also help moderate the temperature, helping to prevent it from getting too hot or too cold.

If it's in a pot, bring it inside a greenhouse from late December until February (talking about San Diego here). Growing in a pot, the plant is more vulnerable to temperature extremes. Despite what many people often seem to think, growing in a pot is not the same as growing in the ground, the plant has a less extensive root system and therefore less access to moisture, and the soil in which the roots are growing is also more exposed to the outside air as well.

Another possible idea could be to grow Fukugi (Garcinina subelliptica), getting it to a good size, and later graft Mangosteen onto that. Fukugi is commonly grown as an ornamental in Okinawa. According to this article, the grafting success rate for mangosteen onto Fukugi was 11%, while mangosteen onto mangosteen rootstock was 68%. They say that Fukugi is not recommended as mangosteen rootstock because its grafted seedlings grew slower than seedlings with mangosteen rootstock.
http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=ID1999001088