Author Topic: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida  (Read 2003 times)

nsequitur

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Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« on: March 20, 2022, 12:02:12 PM »
after reading articles about the lengths some people will go to, to import Indian and Pakistani varieties such as Chaunsa, I wonder why little effort is made to cultivate these varieties in Florida? Maybe there is very good reason - like disease or that they just aren’t suited to our climate and soil?

There is somebody selling these varieties at very high prices (for a very small trees) near Daytona, and I wonder if it’s worth taking a chance on, or if I should just stick with something with similar flavor profile that’s proven to do well, at much lower cost. 

« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 04:10:59 PM by nsequitur »

Satya

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Re: Growing Indian varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2022, 02:03:15 PM »
So far there are certain varieties that have grown well for me here in South FL weather. Ambika, Amrapali, Alampur baneshan, Sonpari, Neelam, Mallika all grew with good vigor and have been disease resistant mostly. Out of these only Ambika and Amrapali are yet to flower for the last 2 years. Also growing Chaunsa, Langra which have grown with lesser vigor and have not flowered, could be that these are from northern past of India where weather is cooler than ours in winter time.
Please check the source carefully if you are buying them online. There was someone scamming people in ebay- user name 'guavaking' selling the Zill variety plants by renaming them into the rare Indian varieties. The seller may have changed the ebay name and sell from different account, so i say please check the source. You can always order a custom grafted 1g tree from Tropical acres, and i think that will be the safest way to get the genuine Indian varieties.

nsequitur

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Re: Growing Indian varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2022, 04:10:33 PM »
Wow that’s exactly right it IS guava king. I’m surprised it’s a scam, as they could very truthfully have grafted and grown what they are selling - how did you hear/know it was a scam?

Also I should have had this in the OP - the source of my interest in these varieties, particularly Anwar Ratol
https://www.eater.com/22618349/pakistani-mangoes-chaunsa-anwar-ratol-buy-usa-whatsapp-shipping-supply-chain

It just seems if people are so crazy for these, then why NOT grow them in Florida. You said maybe the South Florida climate is too warm, but I wonder if it would work in Orlando where we seem to have cooler nights?

Has anyone tasted the varieties mentioned in the story, and how do they compare to the many varieties discussed in this board?

achetadomestica

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2022, 04:38:26 PM »
There is an old post about Guava king

skhan

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2022, 05:14:30 PM »
As mentioned by Satya, some of these simply don't grow well in soflo. Check out tropical acres farms for descriptions in Florida.
A reason could be:
The ones that will grow well might not have a great time flowering.
If you find the sweet area that doesn't freeze and provided enough chill, it probably won't provide economic sense to buy the land and sell produce since you'll likely have to sell whole sale.
And if someone does it we don't know if it will taste as good.

There probably a lot more, hopefully someone find the secret sauce.
Though I'm pretty impressed with a lot of the newers ones down here. Would love to try some in Indian one day


Squam256

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2022, 10:31:19 PM »
Under the existing warm-winter climate that we’ve been experiencing for a decade +, it is very difficult for mangos from Northern India and Pakistan to fruit in south Florida. We’ve been able to get some fruit in limited quantities from a few that we grow with Sindhri, Ashlul Moquarar, and Prince being some of the examples. Then there are some like Gilas, Safeda Lucknow and Dasheri that haven’t even bloomed once for us, although I know of Dasheri trees that have fruited here. Likely some of these would have a better shot at flowering in central or west-coast Florida, but the periodic freezes could also reduce the probability of them fruiting regularly.

In my opinion these types of mangos should be trialed in Southern California where their lack of precocity and requirement for a colder drier climate ought to be a better fit. I have at least heard of people having some success fruiting Sindhri there.

Mangos from southern India , depending on how one defines it, tend to perform better in Florida (but not always). Varieties like Iman Passand, Kesar, Rumani, Neelam, Mallika, Sonpari, Totapuri, And others have fruited well here. Even well-cared for Alphonso trees grown in the coastal-zone can fruit acceptably.

Part of the problem with the availability of the Pakistani mangos is that the USDA has not been allowing any mango plant material into the US for quite some time now even for permits, so farms and nurseries that might otherwise wish to legally obtain these varieties directly from Pakistan or India can’t do so. What few introductions that have been made were smuggled by private individuals.

Thanks to mislabeling as well as the aforementioned fraud on the part of the guavaking guy, there are a bunch of fake Anwar Ratol, Chaunsa and Langra in Florida. We obtained some of these years ago and they all turned out to be deliberate fakes that the guy had purchased from the Zill nursery and simply relabeled whatever he chose.

With regard to Langra, there are probably dozens of mangos called “Langra” in India itself. Checkout this study that shines some light on the topic:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284355201_Clonal_variability_studies_in_'langra'_mango_Mangifera_indica_L_using_morphological_biochemical_and_molecular_markers


Based on literature the original Langra is likely the Langra Benarasi. This mango WAS in fact introduced to the US by some point in the first half of the 20th century because I’ve seen a photograph of the fruit at the old Honc orchard in Bokeelia. But it didn’t become well distributed.  On the other hand, The “Langra Benarasi” later introduced by the USDA is a fraud.

There is a mango we got from the USDA labeled “Rataul” , presumably meant to be Anwar Rataul, which turned out to be Pim Sen Mun. Harry Hausman used to grow this also as I recall, not sure if he got his from Chapman field too.

I’m aware of some individuals claiming to have the real stuff. Time will tell if they do.

If we ever get back to the winters we used to enjoy in south Florida, then I think there will be an opportunity for some of the northern Indian/Pakistani mangos to fruit here at least better than they currently can with the right horticultural care.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 10:40:47 PM by Squam256 »

nsequitur

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2022, 01:18:41 PM »
Thanks for that answer Squam!
Having lived in Miami before Orlando, I think the cooler nights in Orlando May suit some of the Indian varieties, but since my space is limited I’d rather plant something more reliable and not take the risk (and speaking of risk, thanks for saving me from wasted time and money with guavaking … it would have been fruitless, literally)

Gulfgardener

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2022, 11:04:53 AM »
Interesting thread. I've been wanting to grow some Northern Indian / Pakastani mangos and since I'm up north, they might get enough chill to bloom. I'm looking for recommendations on one for fresh eating. Has anyone ate a Sindhri here? Would this fit the bill? Sonpari seems kind of northern but I'm not sure if it counts. I've been looking on Tropical Acres lists but there are so many to choose from!

Guanabanus

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2022, 01:08:01 PM »
A lot of smuggling does go on, into the country, and into states that have their own border regulations.  The regulations exist to protect agriculture from new pests and diseases.  Countries that have carefully enforced these regs have saved themselves from a lot of trouble and expense and from a lot of poisoning.

Not all bringing in of plant materials without a permit can justifiably be accused of being "smuggling."

When a passenger writes a declaration that the passenger is bringing in plant material, but, nevertheless just gets waved through,
that is due to officials' refusals to perform their duties, not to passengers' acts of smuggling.

This has been going on for some 30 years, to reduce long lines and backups of arriving air passengers, after baggage pickup, that a minor official is sent
to stand among the crowd, vetting their declarations, and then selecting who should go to which line or to just be waved on out.  (The main interests are suspicions of illegal entry, or carrying explosives or weapons or illegal drugs or lots of cash.)

Many times in the late 1980's and early 1990's I came back from plant business trips bringing in seeds and graftwood or bare-rooted plants, working under my employer's seed importation and plant importation post-entry-quarantine permits, with pre-hired broker ready to pick up parcels at airport USDA office and transport to USDA "smokehouse" for careful inspection, including micro-scopic, and then to be picked up there by me  Things went reasonably smoothly.

But, then there was the last time I came in, under entirely the same documentation and arrangements.  A selector person was there, insistently trying to wave me on out.  I stubbornly insisted that my luggage must be inspected per plant importation regulations, and I showed him my permit.  When I became the only person going through the agriculture line, the new crew socializing there were suddenly very irritated and treating me as though I were a violator, even though I was holding the importation permit up vertically for them to see, and showing them the suitcase that needed to be sent over for inspection.  Perhaps they had never seen a permit?  I asked to see their supervisor, and was taken to their back-room office, where an experienced and familiar face quickly got things back onto normal procedure.

That experience was so unsettling that I have referred to it many times since--- never advantageously to me, as I end up getting viewed as some sort of rebel or nut-case, or as a confused person who has unrealistic expectations of governmental duties performance.

Meanwhile, dozens of new pests and infections are coming in--- profitably so, for the agricultural-chemical industries.

Several times, over the years, I have heard from persons in possession of plant materials that seemed odd.  Those persons have told me that they had declared the stuff, but were just waved through.  I have no occasion to doubt their sincerity--- and I am not a salaried offical at the airport.
Har

Squam256

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2022, 09:36:04 PM »
Interesting thread. I've been wanting to grow some Northern Indian / Pakastani mangos and since I'm up north, they might get enough chill to bloom. I'm looking for recommendations on one for fresh eating. Has anyone ate a Sindhri here? Would this fit the bill? Sonpari seems kind of northern but I'm not sure if it counts. I've been looking on Tropical Acres lists but there are so many to choose from!

Sonpari is from Gujarat, more appropriately described as central India, but it could be called  genetically South Indian since it’s parents are Alphonso and Banganpalli.

Sindhri is excellent. A very rich, high quality classic-group flavor.

bovine421

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2022, 12:42:45 PM »
The Guyanese and Trinidadians telling me that the Indians have told them that Chaunsa refers to a very sweet mango. There may be several seedlings that fit this description in certain regions in India. Maybe not a field tested and proven established variety recognized by the Indian Department of Agriculture but I'm just surmising. Still trying to get my head wrapped around the difference between a mango variety a mango cultivar and seedling of a variety. I'm basing this guess on just as in the West Indies there is hundreds of seedlings or cultivars called mango Palwi that share certain characteristics and if you go to a different Island it may be called starch or Palwa. Actually I'm waiting on some photos of a mango called Mango drop. Is claim to fame is that you do not pick it. You wait for it to drop off the tree.  It has a firm texture that does not bruise and a very unique flavor
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 01:22:01 PM by bovine421 »
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EddieF

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Re: Growing Indian Mango varieties like Chaunsa in Florida
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2022, 07:46:59 PM »
Har, thank you for your post.  Wisdom as always.