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Messages - Till

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: N1triVoss
« on: July 03, 2024, 02:47:40 PM »
lya, I have a Yuzu x Poncirus hybrid that is almost totally monofoliate. Since I have produced the hybrid myself I can definitly tell that it is Yuzu x Poncirus. So mainly monofoliate N1triVoss may still be C. ichangensis x Poncirus.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Main types of Citrumelo
« on: July 03, 2024, 02:38:25 PM »
 I have tasted Batumi Citrumelo, Dunstan, Swingle 5 Star and a mislabeled Citrumelo with a high rate of zygotic seedlings.
--> Batumi is hardly bitter and has no Poncirus off-flavours. It is sour but very tasty.
--> My Dunstan is as discribed here. Like a good grapefruit only sour. It contains a sticky substance. But the substance is tasteless.
--> Swingle 5 Star is quite bitter, too bitter for me. It has also strong Poncirus off-flavours. For me not edible. But I am willing to believe that it is as good as Ilya describes it in warmer climate.
--> The mislabeled Citrumelo may be Yuma Citrange = Sacaton. This would at least explain the misspelled and strange name the nursery gave to it ("Yuma Gwangne..." from handwritten "Yuma Citrange"?). It is very aromatic and juicy but also bitter with Poncirus off-flavours. Sourness is moderate. I would say: High potential for breeding but almost inedible as it is.

Swingle 5 Star is not hardy in my climate. It is killed to the ground even in mild winters with lows of only -10C / 14F. Ilya states a much better frost resistance. But the growing period at my home seems to be too short for better performance. I have not tested the other citrumelos. Seedlings of the mislabeled Citrumelo were all killed to the ground at around -8C / 17,6F, except two zygotic ones that only lost their leaves.

Regarding hardiness of Poncirus and Citrumelos, I remember a scientific article that stated a hardiness for Poncirus between -14C (6,8F) and -20C (-4F) depending on the cultivar. Other sources attributed a hardiness of about -25C (-13F) to Poncirus. So the genus Poncirus consists of  different gene lines with different hardiness. I can confirm from own experience that some Poncirus seedlings are hardier than others.

The main challage for Poncirus in my climate (cool atlantic climate) is late frost in spring. It cannot handle late frost in spring (for instance -8C / 17,6F at the end of April) very well as a plant adapted to continental climate. In one year, Poncirus was severely frostbidden while Yuzu had no damage at all. (In the next year Yuzu was dead and Poncirus alive.) With this in mind, I can image that a citrumelo is at times hardier than pure Poncirus. a) Hardier when compared to a Poncirus with low hardiness. b) Hardier under late frost when slower to grow in spring. c) Perhaps also hardier when it grows faster than Poncirus so that it hardens off more quickly in autumn.

But usually Poncirus should be much more frost resistant than any of the known citrumelos.

Does anybody know whether Citrangeremo has zygotic seeds or not?
My Citrangeremo blooms for the first time now after over 12 years of waitung. I wanted to pollinate a citrumelo and Staraji with it. But unfortunatelly the bloom of the citrumelo is over now and my Citrangeremo has not produced pollen so far. So I had no choice except trying the reverse cross: citrangeremo x Staraji. Would be good to now if that is worth trying.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrumelo Nr. 82
« on: April 27, 2024, 03:43:50 PM »
Florian, the pictures show Citrumelo 82?

My Dunstan did not do very well the last two years because of earth problem as I later realized. It is on Swingle Citrumelo. It had no root rod but no real root growth either. Seems to be much better now after repotting.
The plant stood in a pot in the wintergarden under glas. But I placed it outside from about mid Mai to October. Fruit was not very big (about the size of a Clementine) but almost totally yellow in autumn. That the plant stood under glas in spring allowed it to be more than a month faster than plants overwintering outside. I forgot when it bloomed. But it was probably in March not in May as Poncirus grown outside does.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu Fingerlime cross
« on: April 26, 2024, 03:06:11 PM »
The hybrid could be quite hardy and will certainly have a form of caviar perls not unlike Fingerlime. Peel might be edible. Taste could be good. Our European Yuzu has good taste, so the US version may at least have the potential for good taste. To sume up, I believe it is a very interesting cross. Results may be disappointing. But it is in my view more likely that the hybrid is really cool.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrumelo Nr. 82
« on: April 24, 2024, 04:45:28 PM »
Good to read about your experience with Citrumelo 82, Florian.

My Dunstan Citrumelo has a very good aroma and NO Poncirus off-flavours. It is just like a sour grapefruit with some sticky substance in the fruits. The sticky substance is tasteless.

The fruits of Swingle 5 Star that I have tasted were very bitter. I prefer by far my Dunstan and my Morton. Batumi Citrumelo is also very good, maybe the best. Batumi is too sour for eating out of hand. But my Morton was sweet enough that I ade some fruits fresh as they were. I found their Poncirus flavours quite tolerable.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Swingle Citrumelo
« on: April 16, 2024, 04:27:46 AM »
My Swingle Citrumelo blooms on new growth so far as I see. It blooms for the second year and still not very much.

Flower buds on old wood seem to be quite common for trifoliate hybrids. Swingle 5 Star blooms mainly on old wood but also on new growth. Another Citrumelo of mine (Sacaton / Yuma Citrange ?) also blooms mainly on old wood and on new growth. My Morton blooms primarily on old wood but also on new growth. My C35 blooms for the second year and still has not many flowers. It also has winter buds, so blooms on old wood but also on new shoots. African Shadock x Poncirus primarily blooms on short flowering sproots, so not quite on old wood but almost so. It resembles my Chandler in that regard.

Sanford Curafora blooms on new growth as does Staraji. Both are F2 hybrids in which the citrus elder has gained dominance.

Yuzu, as far as I remember, blooms on short flowering sproots, so not on old wood as C. ichangensis but also not on fully developed shoots like mandarins.

Kumquat hybrids bloom year around, so not only in summer as kumquats but also in spring like citrus.

To sume up, it seems to me that the flowering habit of hybrids is in the middle of the respective parents. That is to say that Poncirus hybrids have winter buds like Poncirus but they are not so fully developed and big. They appear a little bit later and seem to require a bit more growth or development than pure Poncirus flowers. Anatomically, Poncirus flowers are also short twigs but the flowers of hybrids tend to appear on more fully developed twigs, i. e. on very short flowering shoots with more than one flower. So they are extented Poncirus inflorescences or shortened citrus (mandarin) inflorences depending on the perspective. The first flowering wave tends more to the Poncirus type the second more to the citrus (mandarine) type while the first wave is the main wave.

Pure Citrus is not uniform in its flowering habit. Compare for instance C. ichangensis, pumelo and mandarins. Poncirus can also flower on new growth. But that is extremly rare.) So Poncirus hybrids are also not all alike.

I prefer plants like Poncirus in my cool climate. They bloom earlier and so fruits have more time to ripen. A plant like Sanford Curafora blooms one month later than Poncirus, just because it blooms on new growth. This month is the one month that is lacking in autumn to allow the fruits to ripen before frost.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: IchangensisXSinensis from B.Voss
« on: April 03, 2024, 04:28:55 PM »
Thank you for the replies. Hmm, so not easy. Springtimes makes creative and my shopping addiction has become awake again. I have to think about getting the plant. Or should I better focus on my own hybrids, especially on my Ichang Papeda x Moro hybrid? Space is so limited... Maybe I shall wait with new plants.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: IchangensisXSinensis from B.Voss
« on: April 02, 2024, 02:14:09 PM »
Does Bernhard sell it?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: IchangensisXSinensis from B.Voss
« on: April 01, 2024, 04:42:00 AM »
Does anybody know which kind of seeds C. ichangensis x C. sinensis from Bernhard has?

As far as I remember there is also an analogous seedy cross from elsewhere around. Does anybody know which seeds that has, zygotic or not?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus Breeding
« on: March 31, 2024, 12:41:23 PM »
I agree that Pumelo is best as the female parent. I had, however, mysterious problems use my Chandler as female parent. I know that other were more successfull. But I for my part never got seeds from the combination Chandler (mother) x Poncirus (father). I got at least one hybrid Poncirus (mother) x Chandler (father). What also worked was Chandler (mother) x (African Shadock x Poncirus) (father). Seedlings of the latter cross differ greatly from pumelolike to ponciruslike.

I only say that that you better try both directions of the cross even though Chandler as mother seems to be the best choice. Plant can react quite erratic. What seems probable in theory is sometimes difficult in practice. And what other could do you may have problems with.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Leaf cuttings citrus propagation
« on: March 28, 2024, 02:50:39 PM »
Thank you for your pictures, Kulasa! They clearly show where the shot comes from.

Inspiring. I shall begin producing leave cuttings, also.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Trifoliate flower scent?
« on: March 22, 2024, 06:58:37 PM »
Descriptions in nurseries must in general be critically read. Besides citrus, my other hobby are edible mountain ashes and mountain ash hybrids. I have meanwhile almost all varieties that I have ever found in the internet. It was not easy to get them and so I had to read through many catalogues. It happened very often that genealogies of hybrids were roughly shortened. And what also happened very often that they claimed cultivars to be self-fertile that are definitely not self-fertile. Fruit yeald was also often exaggerated. Some nurseries either do not know better or they just write what sells best. It is some work to compare the information in catalogues with first hand information of the breeders or with information of botanical gardens with university background.

Nonetheless, Poncirus with flagrant flowers seem to exist. Maybe Mikkel can post something about the cultivar he has gotten. I also believe that the woman from whom I got my budwood is absolutely trustworthy. She did not want to sell something. She did not even know that she has something special in her garden. And she was very definite upon my inquieries that she has smelled a very strong odor of the flowers not of the fruits (which are always flagrant). And last but not least she sent me everything for free.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Trifoliate flower scent?
« on: March 17, 2024, 04:16:50 PM »
Poncirus in general is scentless. But there are at least 2 clones in the world with very flagrant flowers. One is known to Mikkel. The other one was found by myself. I found an article of a woman in the internet that praised her Poncirus for its beautifully flagrant flowers, obviously not knowing that Poncirus is usually not flagrant. I wrote her an email and finally got budwood. I was NOT able to test her claims because I do not have flowers yet. But she was very sure about the strong smell of the flowers. There are no indications that she has a Poncirus hybrid. Seems to be pure Poncirus. Ilya got budwood from me. Ilya have the grafts flowered since then?

Most nurseries that claim they have a flagrant Poncirus simple lie. That is at least what I believe. If they were true many people had a Poncirus with smelling flowers. But fact is that hardly any knew one when the question was first rised in this forum. Many nurseries even present pictures of normal lemons when they sell Poncirus. And then they speak about flagrant flowers because they believe that any Citrus plant has flowers with scent.

It seems that F1 crosses with Kumquat have a thin peel. Kumquat x Buddhas Hand has a very thin peel that is not particulary tasty though edible. All Limequats have a relatively thin peel. Given the fact that Limes are F1 hybrids with Citron it seems clear that from all crosses between Kumquat and Citron only F2 (F3, F4 etc. also) crosses will have a peel thick enough to be of culinary interest no matter what Citron you use for breeding. Kumquat Buddhas Hand x Kumquat has fruits as big as a medium size plum, so not very big.

What exactly do you mean by "Red Lime"? Is it the cross with Fingerlime described here: Or is it another plant?

What about Australian Sunrise? I don't have it but from what I read it has a peel like kumquat. (The peel comes from its grandfather, Calamondin, or lets better say from its grand-grandfather, kumquat.)

F. obovata, as least the one I have, is very good. It has big sweet peel and sweet pulp with mandarine taste. It is the best tasting Citrus fruit for me and all my family.

Haruka is said to have a very sweet rind and sweet pulp. It was extremly difficult to get but I have it now. If you want budwood please send me a private message.

I have tasted some Citrons in Sizily. The peel of all is sweet and fruity and thus edible like an apple.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus Breeding
« on: February 29, 2024, 01:34:03 PM »
A cross of Citrumelo x Changsha Citrandarin would have the advantage that frost hardiness is very likely. A good hardiness cannot be garantied but since you have 2 Poncirus grandparents involved and one hardy mandarine it is very probable that seedlings can at least take -15C / 5F. And since two of the grandparents are sweet (Grapefruit and Changsha) there is some hope that the hybrids will also bear sweet fruits.

The toll regulations are as often a great problem. We have in Europe a fully hardy Changsha Citrandarin (US 899 F2 from "Usirius") with zygotic seeds and we have a kind of sweet Poncirus (Poncirus Kinga) with full hardiness which is actually also a hybrid. The former has fruits with medium acidity (sour but less than Poncirus), good mandarin aroma and mild Poncirus flavour. The latter one is said to be sweet and to resemble Poncirus in other regards.

Perhaps yopu have similar types in the States.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus Breeding
« on: February 29, 2024, 06:05:08 AM »
Pollen must be dried (best at 30C but probably not warmer). Dried pollen can be frozen at -20C for at least a year.

The best choice for crossing would in my view be crossing two citrandarins with each other or crossing a citrumelo with a citrandarin thus getting something orangelike. But it is always good to try new things. I had difficulties using Keraji as mother plant because it blooms later than many other hardy citrus plants. And I got a greater number of polyembryonic seeds. I also pollinated Poncirus with frozen Keraji pollen. But it is very doubtful that I got hybrids. The seedlings look too ponciruslike I would say.

Still, you my be more successful!

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: February 21, 2024, 03:42:55 AM »
Mkono, go ahead and be optimistic! Great project. You will have enough survivors when you start with such a great number of zygotic seedlings. And you will probably have some good tasting seedling at the end.

Dr. Frey sowed 200 seedlings from Sanford Citrange (a zygotic variety). He falsely killed all trifoliate seedlings and still ended up with two edible varieties, Sanford Curafora and Vanessa. Ok, they were only moderately hardy. But from what a small number of seedlings!

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Amoa 8 Blood Mandarinwoah!
« on: February 20, 2024, 12:49:32 PM »
A short time of freezing but nonetheless amazing how it survived.

Lemon and Citron should be distinguished, right? Lemon is a hybrid between Citron (male part) and Sour orange.

I agree with Mikkel. The idea that Yuzu descents from C. ichangensis was first of all a mere guess of Walter Swingle. It was a plausible guess. But that his idea has been repeated many thousand times in the last 100 years does not make it more true than genetic studies. Ichang Lemon is according to genetic studies a descendant of Yuzu.
There is a rule in science that we must not cast doubt on any believe without a good reason. Taste is not a very good reason I would say because C. ichangensis is a quite variable species. Different varieties have different fruits. And taste of hybrids is not necessarily conform to the taste of parental species.
Tanaka, by the way, was never convinced by Swingle even before genetic studies could be made.
Yuzu is an extremly old cultivar. It is well possible that its ancestor has died out.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: February 11, 2024, 05:43:27 PM »
we will see. You may be right. Both parents are late. Staraji fruits are now still green and quite small. Trifeola is not extremly late but too late to be harversted in the year of flowering. I do not know how the genes will be mixed. I could imagine that offspring is early maturing. Most Poncirus hybrids are quite early (though not early enough). So if the Poncirus influence dominates I will have early fruits. That is admittingly only to a certain degree probable and far from certain. Both parents have at least the genes for sweetness. And zygotic seeds are also possible for my cross. Keraji has edible peel so Staraji has at least the genes for edible peel.

I have never eaten a Staraji fruit. My plant bloomed for the first time last year. I only have Ilya's description which says sweet and without off-flavours. That was argument enough for me to try the cross.

By the way, most of my Citrumelo seedlings (Sacaton??) were serverly frostbidden even under the snow at about -8C / 17,6F. But some zygotic ones did not even suffer leaf damage. Lets hope that my Trifeola seedlings will be among the surviving ones the next winter. Its a lottery but with a realistic chance to win.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Table of citrus cold hardiness and %zygotic seed
« on: February 11, 2024, 03:14:21 AM »
Here a picture of my lasted Trifeola (Minneola x Poncirus or Poncirus x Minneola) seedlings. I pollinated with Staraji from Ilya. As you see three to four are monofoliate. Seedlings are from one fruit. They are somewhat weak because the fruit fell off unripe and seeds were immature. But now the seedlings start to grow better (under artificial light).

My Trifeola is a beautiful plant with big glossy leaves and beautiful flagrant flowers. The fruits, however, are never fully ripe at the end of the year and taste horribly bitter. Yet, I believe it is usefull for breeding.

The seedlings are not my first Trifeola seedlings. But its hard to tell how many were zygotic in the past. Some assumedly zygotic seedlings later looked uniform. Some assumed zygotic seedlings were to weak to finally survive. My experience with Trifeola seedlings is very limited.

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