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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus from Seattle Arboretum
« on: May 05, 2024, 11:45:04 AM »
The poncirus trees may be a little bit difficult to find.

According to a map, they are in the heart of the arboretum, and will require navigating through a maze of more "off-road" trails to get there.

Starting from the visitor center, there are two main paths that head south through the grounds. Stay on the path on the side facing the road (the road with car traffic) that has a pedestrian bridge across it. This refers to the wider path, and most of the length of this path is (as of 2024) paved in gravel. I believe it is called "Azalea Way". It should be relatively flat. (There is another asphalt-paved path that runs closer to the road. It is not this path) Head south and pass the "Woodland garden" on your left. Keep going a long distance until you get to the hybrid rhododendron section. Just before the hybrid rhododendron section there should be a smaller inconspicuous dirt trail to the left going up the hill. This will take you to another "main" dirt trail which meanders through the center of the arboretum, running between the two main pathways, in what seems like a more wild covered forest area. The poncirus trees are directly across from this dirt trail, on the other side opposite from the hybrid rhododendrons. If you were to draw a triangle between the hybrid rhododendron area, the Asian maple collection, and the Magnolia family collection, the poncirus trees would be in the center of that area.

If it helps at all, the spot is not as far south as the Vibernums and Mountain Ashes sections (which in any case you will not see because they are on the far west and east ends of the arboretum, but I mean if you were trying to see how far south it is on a map).

Blenheim is listed at 400 chill hours, and is still my favorite. On the negative side, it is not the most disease resistant, and alternate bears.
Speaking from experience, Blenheim (also sometimes called Royal) still produces well in zone 10 (not 10a or 10b but right in the middle) but tends to only produce fruit every other year (once every 2 years). In this climate zone, the tree might do better in a spot that has just a little bit of shade and that doesn't get too hot, necessary for being able to accumulate adequate "chill" during winter.

Blenheim is a very excellent apricot, in size and taste.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus ichangensis x sinensis (194)
« on: April 08, 2024, 03:44:55 AM »
I bought mine from Adavo and it is marked as Shangjuan.
Probably totally off topic to this discussion, but the modern Chinese romanization of "Shangjuan" would be Xiang-yuan. This is really not the best name because it could also refer to citron (Citrus medica) or pomelo, in a more general sense. 
"Xiang", by itself, translates as "fragrant". The "yuan" part is a character that shows the symbol of "tree" or "plant" but pronounced in a special way, and most commonly associated specifically with citron. It's possible the sound of the word "yuan" originally derived from the word for "round" or "ball".

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2024, 01:45:57 AM »
I can share my experiences of an Ichang lemon growing in the U.S. Pacific Northwest climate region, climate zone 8a.

It started off in a container outside.
One year, during a cold winter, the plant was severely damaged and suffered much die-back. It was much more damaged than two Bloomsweet grapefruit plants that were right next to it. So I thought this showed that Ichang lemon was not very freeze tolerant.
But then another year it went through a winter colder than the first, and the Ichang lemon seemed to survive through it well, while the two Bloomsweet grapefruit plants ended up being killed.
The plants growing in containers were not far from the house, and got only moderate sun exposure during the winter.

Then I put the Ichang lemon in the ground, in a very sheltered spot on the south-facing side of the house, up against a wall. It was not covered or otherwise protected in any way. It was a moderate winter, with mild temperatures most of the time, but three days of moderate freeze, outside temperatures probably going down to maybe around 13.5 to 14.5 °F ( -10 °C).
It seems to have survived well, and as of March 15, the leaves are not looking too unhealthy, looks like it will do well and grow a lot this year.

I can also point out I planted two small Ichang papeda plants in the ground, further away from the house, and both of them did not end up surviving. Declined a little bit after going through the first winter, and then were finally killed by the second winter, even though the second winter was not as cold as the first. Yuzu seems to grow faster and recover better than Ichang papeda here, but Yuzu can also show decline and be killed.
In this climate, it seems very important to plant in a protected spot, very close to a house, in an area that is not as open and will not get much wind blowing across.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 Citrandarin (X-639) winter hardiness trial
« on: March 16, 2024, 01:20:49 AM »
I'd love to have thermostatically controlled heat mats but given the quantity of trays I'd need to heat I'm not wanting to invest the money in them. I'm hoping that I still see a decent enough germination rate without them.

I found that heating mats do not seem to work very well, since they result in excessive drying out of soil. (Moisture tends to move from warmer areas away to cooler areas) 
What I found works better is having an enclosure to be able to contain humidity in the air, and then having a small heat source within the enclosure. Even possibly a heat mat under an open container of water. This way the warmth and humidity can migrate to the seedlings, rather than the seedlings being directly warmed and then losing moisture to the surrounding air.

Since you have a clear plastic lid to cover it, heat mats may be able to work. But it is still going to result in much condensation.

Both LED lights or fluorescent will work equally well, and special LED grow lights do not really work any better than normal LED light. Theoretically, LED is more efficient and uses less energy, but in reality none of the energy is really "wasted" since the wasted energy all turns into heat, which is desirable in this situation. If this is being kept in an unheated room, you might even consider insulation panels that are coated on one side with reflective metal foil, to help hold in the heat.

Here is the Ichang Lemon. Not looking too bad. Right up against the wall of the house.

Here is the Dunstan citrumelo. The top branch which goes up (and is too tall to fit into the picture) is 5 feet and 7 inches high (170 cm).
It's doing very well, still has its leaves.

pictures taken February 26, 2024

The Ichangquat did not end up surviving and is now dead. It seems to have suffered a gradual decline, finally being unable to recover after one winter, even though it had gone through colder winters before.
(I will say that it was in a colder spot in the yard, away from the house, that is shaded most of the day during the winter season. An Arctic Frost - own root - was previously unable to survive there, so maybe it is just not the best spot)

There is still another ichangquat seedling (not a trifoliate hybrid) that has a full inch of alive green at its base, but it has not been able to put out any leaf growth over the last 2 years. Perhaps this year might be different. The green color does look like a healthy alive green though. The top of the seedling was killed back during a colder winter.
(It's also away from the house but in a sunnier spot)

Furthermore, if multiple research projects reach the same point and one proposes something different, science is consolidated by evidence and because its results are repeatable, not by exceptions.
Unfortunately I think you are confusing "science" with what this actually is.
(You are making an error in reasoning known as equivocation fallacy)

You are treating this as if these are different experiments that each prove the same thing. In actuality, each of these studies are just examining certain markers. Probably many of those markers overlap between the different studies.
It is not really fair to say that because multiple studies have pointed to the same result that it means this is much greater evidence than if it were just one of these studies.

It might be more appropriate to view this in terms of mathematical statistics, but even to do that you would have to compare exact genetic markers between these studies, which would be difficult (for us).

If some people here reinterpret research results based on taste and personal impressions, turn lemon into citron, turn the results upside down to suit their own personal preferences (I'm not talking about you, Lauta!), then this is not helpful, it creates confusion and is pure speculation and certainly not scientific.
I accept your criticism, and you have a point, but I think the specific example you pointed to, turn lemon into citron, is a really bad example to point to, on your part.

True, I did a lot of other speculation in my post, but that specific thing (lemon into citron) is a very obvious thing, I think. I might not have precisely logically derived it from the specific data, but it is common sense.

Unfortunately I am afraid there may be a little bit of a language barrier between us, so communication about some of these precise things might be difficult.

passiflora (passion fruit, beautiful exotic looking flowers)
Guinea gold vine (Hibbertia scandens, medium to slow growing, somewhere between vine and bush, big yellow flowers)
there are different types of jasmine, honeysuckle
possibly certain rambler roses (though you will need to be selective because many do not grow as well in tropical climates, maybe Lady Bank's rose or Devoniensis)
Crossvine (Bignonia capreolata, pretty flowers but does not have any scent)
Jade vine (Strongylodon macrobotrys, definitely tropical, stunning unusual colored flowers)
Odontadenia Macrantha
Artabotrys hexapetalus has a little bit of a vine habit

However, the allele-sharing test clearly refutes this proposal, with 31 out of 123 DNA markers not shared between yuzu and C. ichangensis. Because the cytotype of C. ichangensis was unique, but the lemon-type cytotype was found in 13 varieties "

"These observations hypothesized that C. ichangensis could an offspring of an unidentified papeda × lemon, and yuzu might also be an offspring of this unidentified papeda."
It's interesting, but I think you have to take the interpretation of these genetic marker analyses with a huge grain of salt and some skepticism.

C. ichangensis is a lot more closely related to citron (C. medica) than most any of the other varieties (despite the huge difference in cold tolerance, with citron having less cold tolerance than even most ordinary citrus fruits).

So we could postulate there are "citron-type" genes in C. ichangensis, convenient genetic markers that ichangensis shares with citron.
If ichangensis hybridized with something else (such as mangshanensis), then not all the ichangensis genes would have carried over. It could be possible all the citron-type genes did not get passed on. Especially if Yuzu went through a series of sexual propagations to get to its present gene profile.

When the Japanese researchers refer to "lemon type", I assume it is very likely what they actually mean is "citron type". (citron is the primary ancestor of lemon, where lemon gets most of its distinct character from)

So it might only appear that ichangensis had some other ancestry that yuzu does not. That is a possibility.

Another possibility (which I find to be much less likely) is that human civilization might have grown potted citron near the Yangtze River around Yichang, and then the citron plant contaminated the gene pool of the entire population of native papedas.
Citron used to be a common ornamental plant in Chinese civilization.
For that to have happened, something in the citron genes would have had to confer some advantage that the original papeda species did not have, which I think is not so likely.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Possible Sacaton citrumelo x Ten Degree Tangerine
« on: February 13, 2024, 11:45:06 PM »
A hybrid with Ten Degree Tangerine could have a lot of potential.

I tried growing Ten Degree Tangerine, and it obviously seemed to have a lot less cold tolerance than Yuzu. It wasn't immediately killed, but seemed to decline after going through two or three winters, and wasn't able to put out the growth to be able to recover.
Ten Degree is a Clementine x Yuzu cross, so presumably it has some cold tolerant Yuzu genes but those genes appear to be mostly recessive. In my opinion it might take another cross to get those dormant Yuzu genes to be functional.

And crossing a poncirus hybrid like citrumelo with another cold hardy variety which does not have any poncirus genes sounds like a great way to be able to eliminate the bad tasting poncirus traits.

What I notice is if you look on a map of China, Hong Kong to Mangshan mountain to Changsha to Yichang are all in a straight line going north.
(each separated by a distance of about 245 kilometers by air)

Mangshan is where Citrus mangshanensis comes from, Changsha - the Changsha mandarin, and Yichang is the area where ichangensis comes from.
So it's probably not a coincidence.

This does sort of suggest to me that more likely Yuzu came about caused by human civilization. Trees of one of the two species were probably moved out of their native range, which allowed cross-pollination to happen.

When he extends the graph he adds the genetic composition of many varieties and hybrids and it is elucidated that "MS = mangshanyeju" is the father of Yuzu, he means that this variety is the one that created yuzu.  the other parent indicates it as C. ichangensis.  (like all the other research works that we put in this Post).  He states that through multiple investigations it is confirmed that Yuzu is a hybrid of C. ichangensis x C. reticulata (from the population = mangshanyeju).
The pictures of mangshanyeju mandarin fruits (Citrus mangshanensis) do look extremely similar to Yuzu.

One thing I will point out is that most pictures of mangshanyeju show very elongated leaves, which is not how the leaves of Yuzu look.
But I have found one picture of mangshanyeju showing more regular stocky leaves, which look like yuzu.
(accession MS3 from Lun Wang et al. 2018 that came from Mangshan Mountain, shown in the French language Wikipedia page)

Only "moderate frost"?? We had the most severe freeze we've had here since 2014, both in terms of absolute low (14.7°F here in my yard, 15°F at the official Seattle station) and also in terms of the duration of low temperatures (6 days where the high was around or below freezing). I had solid ground at least a couple inches deep by the end of it, couldn't break through with a shovel.

My unprotected yuzu seedling mostly defoliated (with some retaining only the first leaf segment),
To be totally fair, I was on vacation.
But Seattle must have gotten a colder wave than Olympia this winter because none of my citrus lost their leaves so far, and in fact the leaves still look good, the hue of green does not look too unhealthy.

According to a past weather record I looked up, it says it reached a low in Olympia of 12 degrees F in the very early morning of January 14 (2024), and the nights were cold the next 2 days due to clear skies. I doubt it actually went down quite that low where my plants were because the weather station is located in a colder part of Olympia. If the weather station says 12, then where I am it would probably have been more like 13.5 or even 14.5

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poorman Orange/New Zealand Grapefruit
« on: February 12, 2024, 04:07:24 PM »
I have not tasted this "New Zealand grapefruit", but I have had the opportunity to taste Seville orange.
I would imagine the New Zealand grapefruit probably has a lot in common with Seville orange. The peel of Seville orange is not very edible, but is more edible than a regular orange and is useful for making marmalade.
Also may be similar to the Japanese variety natsudaidai, almost a little similar to grapefruit, which is of poorer fruit quality but is notable for having virtually no bitterness in the white pith, and so is suitable for making a marmalade.

@SoCal2warm In Europe, ichangensis and yuzu are quite common and not so rare. I wouldn't go so far as to doubt genetic studies just because I've tasted both fruits once.  You can make an assumption and others can make contrary assumptions, but none of that is proof!
I was not doubting the genetic studies. My taste of the fruits confirms what the genetic studies say.
The two agree.

With regard to yuzu and ichangensis, however, it is the case that ichangensis cannot genetically be the parental species of yuzu. Whether the true parent species is a close relative or just an as yet unknown type of ichangensis, who knows, that is speculation.
I was not claiming it was the direct actual parent. Just that it is the ancestral parent.
Sort of like Adam and Eve are our parents.

If it is not a direct ancestor, then the parent is probably very closely related. The same species, or almost the same species. We know there are a couple different phenotypes of ichangensis. This species has a lot of genetic diversity and variability, and probably had even more diversity in ancient times.

I am not saying you are incorrect, but I also do not believe it is incorrect to say that ichangensis is the parent of yuzu, if we are talking about it in a general sense, one that might not be entirely precisely accurate. Sometimes it is better to just simplify things to express a truth, even if that simplification does not capture all the details and might technically be inaccurate.

I suspect after first coming into existence, yuzu must have been propagating by itself, occasionally sexually, in its own genetic pool. That it is not just a simple direct hybrid.

In my opinion, the fact that most yuzu seeds are nucellar (genetic clones of the parent) is an indicator that yuzu probably does not represent a true species (though does not prove it). Typically hybridization between two disparate citrus species results in nucellar seeds, whereas the original species have zygotic seeds. Although it is possible over time for hybrids to start becoming their own distinct separate species.

In conclusion, we might not know with absolute certainty precisely and exactly where yuzu came from, but we have a very good indication and know generally (in a more vague sense).

My yuzus are very green since they are harvested in July here, but from what I can find, green is a smell (close to the peel) that reminds me more of the Common mandarin (in the US they call it Willow left).  but when it is ripe I will be able to analyze it in more detail, I don't know if you tried that variety to see if you found something similar or it is just an appreciation due to lack of tools to compare.
I have seen once and bought yuzu fruits at a luxury supermarket near where I live. Very surprised to see that. But they most have been picked unripe, because the fruits were much more on the green color side than yellow. I know it certainly was yuzu, but the fruits were very different from the ripe yuzu fruits I have picked off the tree. The skin of the green fruits was much harder and not edible. Whereas the skin of the very ripe yellow-orange fruits was soft tender, similar to citron (Citrus medica), and the skin is somewhat edible.

I think the best time to pick yuzu is when the fruits are yellow and beginning to become orange, but have not become too orange yellow in color. Before then they have not developed a strong aroma and are very unripe and dry, but after that they start losing sourness and becoming just a little bit insipid, maybe also lose just a tiny bit of aroma.

I realize in different climates, more tropical climates, citrus fruits often remain green and do not turn orange. I do not know how that affects yuzu fruit. But I am saying in other climates, if yuzu is green it is unripe and will not be so good. It will not give you a good idea of what yuzu fruit is supposed to be like.

The peel of yuzu is very important and is where most of the flavor is. It is nothing like an edible kumquat, but if you process the yuzu it has many culinary uses. Think of it like a lemon. 

In the longest one it talks about types/populations/subspecies of mandarins, and it seems that a wild population is the closest to Yuzu, the manshangyeju, meaning that the common one would not be its parent.  and the seed came from C. ichangensis.  It is logical because of the story told in the Riverside collection, where it mentions that it grows wild in China.  To my understanding, Ichangensis trees may have been planted near wild populations of these mandarins and only the pollen passed from one flower to the other.  This is because ichangensis is used for its aroma in China.  (this is just my idea).  What is it for us?  Well, it could be to repeat the experience and recreate the Yuzu, perhaps using another type of mandarin, as I make many hybrids, I could see what happens,😋.  and the other thing is to try to understand that maybe the Yuzu's resistance does not come from Ichangensis... maybe it comes from its Mandarin Parent (from the wild cultivar).  and for our hybrids it may be better to use tangerines. 
I could not speculate on precisely what the other ancestral parent of yuzu is. But it seems that ichangensis must have crossed with some sort of mandarin orange or sour orange type species. Because the aroma of yuzu has much in common with ichangensis, but whereas ichangensis leans more towards a "pure lemon" citron and lime aroma, yuzu is shifted much more in an "orange" or mandarin orange direction, or perhaps almost fragrant sour orange. Based on the tenderness of the peel, I would have to guess the ancestor is much closer to mandarin orange than orange. The peel of yuzu reminds me most of Satsuma mandarins, but the peel of yuzu is even more tender and less bitter than Satsuma. The genetic studies of yuzu have shown no signs of pomelo (Citrus maxima) ancestry, but that does not absolutely mean it could not be there.
The hypothesis that the ancestor might have been some sort of more wild sour mandarin species is not an unreasonable one. You can look up Citrus indica. It might have been something like that. But this is complete speculation, I really do not know.

Then I see if I can make a graph with the visual image and in proportion to what this research says and comparing sizes with the wild mandarin.
The genetic marker studies I have seen on yuzu show very strong dominance of ichangensis in its genes. That means yuzu may not be a direct single generation hybrid, but rather propagated on its own, sexually, and over time the ichangensis genes dominated. I have not seen any genetic studies giving any indication more specifically what type the other ancestor of yuzu might be.

You can consider that, although mandarin oranges are not very cold tolerant, they are usually much more cold tolerant than ordinary sweet orange.

I am thinking it is possible yuzu got some moderate cold tolerant genes from its mandarin orange type ancestor, but almost certainly yuzu must have gotten most of its cold tolerant genes from ichangensis.

Every source I have found says ichangensis is supposed to be much more cold tolerant than yuzu, but my personal experience seems to contradict that.
I have tried growing two ichangensis plants and they were unable to survive here. They went through the first winter but were unable to recover well, which meant they were unable to recover after the second winter. But the yuzu plants I have grown seem to have been more cold tolerant and survived better. Although some of the yuzu plants declined after 2 or 3 years and finally died.
I know with certainty what I grew was ichangensis. I do not know why my experience is different from others. Perhaps it has to do with climate, or perhaps I got a bad ichangensis variety.
I have some Yuzu and a Changsha mandarin plant that appear to be surviving well.

I even tried growing two seedlings that came from an Ichangquat (kumquat x ichangensis) cross, and they finally did not end up surviving outside, seemed less able to survive than Yuzu seedlings I have grown. I am thinking it might not have to do with just actual cold tolerance, it might have to do with vigor and ability to grow after winter. The climate where I am does not get much heat until late June into the year.

Perhaps ichangensis is better in climates that get more heat earlier after winter. I do not know.

I think there is new research that says yuzu is a descendant of a species closely related to ichangensis, but not ichangensis itself.
In my opinion, it's unknown whether yuzu is descended directly from ichangensis.
There are several indicators that strongly suggest yuzu descended from ichangensis, or a close relative or ancestor of ichangensis.

As one of the rare people who have had the opportunity to smell and taste both fruits freshly picked from the tree, in my opinion the aroma strongly seems to indicate to me that yuzu probably descended from ichangensis (combined with some other mandarin orange type presumably).

Genetic marker analysis does not always give the most definitive results of ancestry, but it is generally agreed the two are very closely related.

Likewise, as far as I know, it's not known for sure whether Ichang lemon descends from yuzu or from ichangensis, precisely. But it must be one of those two. 

Here is an update.

It has been a very mild winter (December 2023-February 2024) except for a brief period of moderate frost around January 9.

This picture was taken February 8. The Yuzu seedling is doing very good. Its leaves would probably look greener and healthier if it were not for an infestation of spider mites earlier in the year.

It's about 3 feet tall now (or just a little over 3 feet tall since it is sitting on a small mound).

The Changsha also does not look bad, and the leaves on the Ichang lemon look somewhere between not bad to good too.

None of them were covered this year.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Satsuma on its own roots
« on: December 15, 2023, 12:21:46 AM »
If you are in the warmer part of zone 8, that is 8b, and you are in a good location and they are planted in a good spot, somewhere in your yard that doesn't get too cold and is protected from wind, I believe Satsuma can grow.

However, I have found that Satsuma seems unable to grow in the zone 8a PNW climate. (The PNW is different from the South, cooler temperatures throughout the year so a shorter growing season, but at the same time no cold snaps so no worries about coming out of dormancy too soon)
Even with a little bit of light protection, it is not enough. However, another member of this forum, Jim VH, who lives just 2 hours south of me, is growing two Satsuma trees, with a more heavy layer of insulation and wood frame that covers it during the winter. About 3 feet tall. He's in a very suburban location which probably also helps.

I would also strongly advise you to let the trees put on some growth and get at least a foot and a half, to two feet high before you try planting them outside unprotected. Perhaps use a light covering during the first two winters to help it along, with two large containers of water inside right up against the trunk to help protect it. (Water begins to give off heat as the temperature drops below the freezing point) It didn't work for me, but it may work for you, in a slightly warmer climate.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Passe Crassane pear
« on: December 01, 2023, 03:07:18 AM »
I finally got to taste a pear off the tree that was more ripe. It seems you can't judge by the first fruits but will have to wait a few years for the tree to mature before the fruits start being able to develop a little bit more. Even after being developed, the fruit needs at least 11 days in storage to be able to ripen a little bit.

It's hard to describe exact taste and flavor but I'll try.

The texture, and a little bit of the flavor, seems half similar to an Asian pear. But other than that, it seems very similar to a Comice or Bartlett pear. But the flavor is a little bit different, still. From what I tasted, it has a little bit more tart sourness, which sort of intensifies the flavor in a way. It tasted a little bit over-ripe, yet paradoxically maybe not all the way fully ripe, a little bit of a more "fermented" flavor of an overripe pear, yet still with the grassiness of an underripe one. The flavor and aroma has a little bit of an ethereal "cotton candy" quality, maybe slightly perfumed like an Asian pear.
I also detected what I would say is a little bit of a ripe watermelon flavor as well, almost maybe a little bit like you would find in some figs.

Overall I would say, from what I tasted, I do prefer a good Comice or Bartlett pear more. But this did have a little bit of unique quality. I could still rate this pear as a 7 or 8 out of 10. It did have some of the "buttery" quality of European pears.

I suspect the flavor would have been better if the pear had been able to have more time to ripen on the tree. But for that, I think the tree will have to get more mature. The fruit I tasted did not really get that big, was rather on the small side for a typical pear.

The seeds in all of the fruits appear very small shriveled up and non-viable.

I do grow three rare varieties of quince that are edible raw (Karp's Sweet, Crimea, Kuganskaya). I cannot say for sure, but from what I am tasting, it does seem possible that this fruit could possibly be a hybrid. When I consider the more tart sourness of these edible quince varieties. I'd say it's at least 70 percent more pear-like than any of these quinces I have tasted. But I do think I can almost detect a little bit of a certain "yellow" quince flavor in there, mostly in the aftertaste.

The most remarkable thing, I would say, is that this tree is even able to produce fruits in climate zone 10. Even if it's obvious the fruits do not have as much vigor as they would if they got more winter chill. So I think the fruits might not be growing as fast or developing all the way or as fully as they would in a different climate with more winter chill. (The Karp's Sweet quince also managed to produce a very big fruit, in this climate, though I can tell the tree is not being very generous with fruit production)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichang Papada Kaviar
« on: November 12, 2023, 01:38:10 PM »
The peel, however, has a horrible aftertaste, much worse than anything I have ever tasted.
Interesting. Because the peel that I tasted (from the Citrus ichangensis tree in the Hoyt Arboretum in Portland, Oregon) seemed very much leaning towards the edible side to me (perhaps just in my personal opinion).
I could easily eat and nibble on some of the peel, although would probably not want to eat more than a third of one fruit. I thought it would be great to flavor gin.
I personally found the peel to be more edible than lemon peel but not as good as citron.

It did get a little "skunky" and did not settle the best in my stomach if I ate the peel from more than about a third of one of the little fruits, but nevertheless I could enjoy eating and nibbling on a little bit of the fruit, and I think lemon lovers would think the same. Interesting flavor, to me almost like halfway between lemon and lime but with a little bit of the pungent character of Yuzu, and also with a little bit of a "woody" aroma. I would say as easy to eat as the peel from Satsuma mandarin, perhaps a little bit easier in some ways. I mean it was more tender, maybe even slightly more tender than the peel of a Yuzu freshly picked off the tree that is completely ripe, but it is very "lemony" and has a hint of bitterness (still a little less than the peel of Satsuma mandarin) and can get kind of "skunky" if you eat more than a small amount of it.

The inside of the Ichang papeda fruits I tasted did not look like finger lime. I wonder if perhaps what you have might actually be a hybrid.

The inside of the Ichang papeda fruits I tried looked like something between Kaffir lime and Yuzu, but slightly worse inside fruit quality than that, with a little less juice than even those have.

But keep in mind in this climate the fruits I tasted might not have been able to fully ripen all the way as much as they would have in a warmer climate further south. Portland does not really have a very long growing season, similar to Germany.

The Ichang papeda fruits from that tree looked different from both the pictures shown by Till, and those shown by Florian, but looked more similar to those shown by Florian.

Here is a picture of the fruits that I took.

Some will claim it looks like Yuzu but I can tell you it is not definitely not Yuzu, since I have picked off the fresh fruits from a Yuzu tree.

None the fruits from that tree that I picked seemed to have any viable or big seeds, but that may probably have been because there was no other nearby citrus variety to pollinate it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« on: November 07, 2023, 10:21:12 AM »
Khasi might be something to consider. The Khasi Hills are a subtropical rainforest characterized by cool summers and occasionally freezing winters. Which sounds a lot like the PNW. While it may not be able to tolerate the lows that Ichang can, it may be able to tolerate less summer heat than Ichang seems to need.
I'm skeptical. The Khasi Hills have much more moderate temperatures and a much longer growing season than the PNW.
You can compare growing degree days between Olympia and Shillong (India) for example.
In Shillong, by late March, the average high is already 86 and the low 66°F , much warmer than Olympia earlier in the year.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus in PNW
« on: November 05, 2023, 01:49:09 PM »
"It's good where we're not." You can paraphrase this saying for plants as well. While Russians are looking for American varieties, such as “ninth ball” and the like, Americans are getting Russian varieties like “Parfianka” from somewhere.
I considered myself very familiar with rare pomegranate varieties and had never heard of "ninth ball".
I imagine it might perhaps be the same with the variety "Parfianka" in Russia (the limited parts of Russia where hardy pomegranate varieties can grow).

I think the variety "Parfianka" originated from former Soviet botanist Gregory Levin's surveys in Turkmenistan. I do not really know for sure if it has more hardiness (that is only what I heard) but do know that it has survived for me, seems to be doing very well, whereas I know of a regular pomegranate variety that was planted in a park (not too far away from here) that died, apparently unable to survive the winter, and was only able to live 2 or 3 years.

I live in Cincinnati and I can't grow grapes either
It is possible to grow grapes in Ohio but only certain special hardy varieties can be grown easily. I suspect it has as much to do with the summer humidity as the winter cold.
There are several vineyards not too far from Cincinnati.

"American and French hybrid types are better suited to Ohio growing conditions because they tend to be more winter-hardy."

(Though I personally prefer the more pure flavor of "European" vinifera grapes. Concord is representative of flavor of the American family)

In hotter climates, raspberries bake in the heat of direct full sunlight (especially midday afternoon light exposure). They need some shading, and plenty of water during the hotter half of the year. The soil can be an issue too. They do not grow well in very shallow hard limestone soil. Some mulch might be needed to mix with the limestone soil if it is too alkaline. The soil should not be too heavy, hard, or clay-like. They do like soil with a little sand that is fertile, holding moisture but capable of draining.

Caroline, Dorman Red, and Bababerry are the varieties that can take a little more heat, though Caroline is not much more heat tolerant than regular raspberries.
These varieties are still not as heat tolerant as blackberry, however. There is also black raspberry, though some do not find the flavor so raspberry like, and even in hybrids like Brandywine the black raspberry flavor dominates.

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