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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Siting Yuzu and Bloomsweet
« on: May 20, 2022, 09:59:29 PM »
I am thinking any plant planted in the hot desert will prefer being planted in an area that is just a little bit shady, especially an area that gets a little bit of shade during the hottest part of the day, 12:00 to 3:00 pm.

Yuzu and Bloomsweet should do just fine in zone 9. I think the heat might be what you have to worry about more than the cold, in this case.

In zone 8, it is a completely different matter.

I can provide an update. Not good news. Almost none of the hardy citrus seemed to do well this winter. The temperature dipped down to 9 degrees F on New Years Eve, despite the temperature not dropping too low for the rest of the winter. (Although it did dip down to between 16 to 18 in the early morning of February 23 and 25)

The only one that was completely undamaged and looks great was the Changsha mandarin, but that was planted in a more protected location and surrounded by a big bush that probably helped insulate it.

Keraji, with a gallon container of water right next to it and covered with a paper bag, died down to the rootstock.
Why did it survive fine through last winter but was killed this winter? I do not know. Maybe it ran out of energy?

Bloomsweet, which also had a water container next to it and was haphazardly covered with a plastic bag through the worst part of the winter, suffered severe die back. One two little branches down towards the bottom are still alive and green. I am not sure if it will be able to recover.

The Dunstan citrumelo lost nearly all of its leaves, except some towards the very bottom near a branch that was weighed down against the ground by the weight of snow. Those leaves will survive. Most of the branches look green and fine, but there were just a few segments of branches that have turned grey and look like they were very damaged. Fortunately it is a vigorous grower and I am sure it will recover and survive.

Sudachi survived, but only because almost the entire little plant was bent down against the ground and so was burried under the snow and insulated under the winds. It does not look great and looks somewhat tattered but the leaves are still alive.

The two Ichang papeda plants seem to have been very much killed back. Only the base branch very close to the ground is still alive.

Three Yuzu plants, all on grafted rootstock, appear to have finally died. They survived through several winters before, so maybe they gradually ran out of energy and then were not able to recover? It is interesting.

One tiny little Yuzu seedling in the yard close against the ground survived, though it has no leaves.

Another Yuzu seedling, 3 feet tall, that is in another location that is in more of a developed area near the downtown has survived. It lost all its leaves but the branches are still all green and it looks like it will recover just fine. It is growing on its own roots.

The Ichangquat seedling (the one that I thought might be a complex hybrid and be more hardy) was killed down to 3 inches above the ground. The other Ichangquat seedling only has one narrow little branch that is surviving, seems like the other two were killed back, and even that one surviving branch was killed back to only less than 2 inches above the ground, no surviving leaves. I do not know if it will be able to recover.

That tiny little keraji seedling is still alive and has a tiny healthy colored green leaf, but it was completely buried under a layer of mulch and was very close to the ground.

I recently ordered one from Woodlanders, it arrived yesterday, and I've found myself a bit skeptical.
In my opinion those leaves are symmetrical enough that it could be Ichang papeda.
I think on some of the smaller sized plants, the leaves might not be quite as symmetrically sized as on more mature trees.

You will notice that a few of the leaves in those pictures do seem to have more of the fuller symmetry of stereotypical Ichang papeda.

It does not appear to be Ichang lemon from the leaves, much more like Ichang papeda.

I would recommend saving your time and grow something else. I have gotten them to fruit but they get to the size of a golf ball then dry up.  Fungal issues prevent full maturation.
What if you just put a frame over the tree with a transparent plastic cover during the warmer half of the year? That might prevent rain from falling on the fruit.

I know this is what they do for harvesting cherries in Japan and tomatoes in Korea.

I am unsure of why pomegranates would not do well in Florida.

As far as I know, there are two main things. The wet rainy summer days can cause the fruit to crack, and pomegranates do not like the alkaline soil in Florida. I think both of these things might not be too difficult to solve.

There might also be disease and pest issues with the heat and humidity on the leaves but I do not know specifically about this.

Chill hours are not much of a problem with pomegranates in zone 10 Southern California, so why do you think it would be a problem in Florida? I know winters in Florida can be shorter though and have bursts of warmth throughout the winter which may not be good for plant chill accumulation.

Wonderful, Angel Red, and Austin all produce fruit in zone 10 California.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2022, 09:29:49 PM »
Interesting, I wonder if like kabosu its only sour before ripening?
I have had one picked from the tree that was fully ripe (but grown in a cool short season climate).
They are about as sour as a Meyer lemon, but just a little bit watery, bland, and insipid inside. They might be a little less acidic than a Meyer lemon due to being watery. This was when it had reached a full yellowish-orange color.
You want to pick them when they are still mostly green.

The peel makes a good marmalade at this stage though, when they are orange.

I will say that the inside quality of Kabosu, fully ripe, is definitely better than Yuzu, if you are only focusing on eating the inside. It is a little like Yuzu, but also like a Meyer lemon and even maybe just a little bit like an orange. Not great flavor, but definitely edible inside. Though this is still not something you would buy from the store if you were only wanting it to eat the inside.

Lastly, I will say that the leaves on my Sudachi survived through a zone 8a Pacific Northwest winter, but I think that was only because the trunk was bent down by the weight of the snow causing the entire plant to be buried under the snow. If it had been exposed to the above air, the leaves would have been completely fried and there would have been severe stem damage and branch death.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 16, 2022, 09:12:27 PM »
For my 2 cents worth.  My opinion is, all of the various Yuzu strains and yuzu hybrids are simply not worth investing ones time and money in growing them, and most especially if your  intent is to eat any of them.
I have a different opinion from you. I can understand why some people would say that. Yuzu is not really a "high quality" fruit, compared to any normal lemon. But it has no bad off flavors, is definitely possible to eat, and is pretty hardy and cold tolerant for a lemon. That combination of hardiness with edibility could be a good starting point, in my opinion. It may not be an excellent fruit, and it does not have the level of cold tolerance of poncirus hybrids, but can you find any other citrus that is as cold tolerant as Yuzu which tastes as good, or is as edible as Yuzu but is more cold tolerant? I don't think you will.
Yuzu is great to add flavor to other things, and especially the peel is tender, not too bitter, and has lots of flavor. Something else to keep in mind is that harvest time does matter.

Those who say Yuzu is terrible, I have to imagine that those people live in a zone 9 or 10 climate where they can grow better tasting citrus varieties. Once you get into zone 8, your options become more limited, and then Yuzu might be something you might want to consider, if you want to be able to grow anything outside.

Unless you value Yuzu for the peel and understand how the peel can be used, I can see how some people might not understand how Yuzu is worthwhile to grow. But the inside is edible. Although it can be a little watery and bland, the inside flesh is a bit dry, does not have much juice, and of course the inside is packed full of a large number of large-sized seeds that take up a large volume of space. I get a lemon, sour orange, mandarin orange, and a little bit of almost grapefruit flavor from the inside segments.

When I say the inside is edible, perhaps I mean something that a child would snack on and forage for in the wild, or that you could eat in a survival situation.

Yuzu has a very fragrant and unique smell, that to some people compensates for its low quality fruit. The important thing is that the fruits do not have bitterness, like some other fragrant orange citrus fruits.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 04, 2022, 07:03:09 AM »
I do have a small Yuzu tree growing in the same yard space as a large Eureka lemon in climate zone 10. I suppose I could try to do a cross pollination and share some seeds. I highly doubt the offspring could grow in zone 8 though.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 02, 2022, 06:44:38 AM »
it is true that a simple cross between poncirus and citrus will not produce a predictable result, no matter how much you think about it beforehand, it always depends on the number of seedlings, the greater the number of seedlings the greater the probability of finding the desired gene combination, it is much more about probabilities and not only about recessive and dominant.
I just do not think the desired gene combination is going to be able to be achieved in one hybridization. It will take two.

Several seedlings will have to be grown, and then subsequently numerous seeds from each of those seedlings will have to be grown.

Many of the seeds may turn out to be nucellar (genetic clones of the fruit parent they came from) so that will turn out to be a waste.

If it were so easy as just make one hybridization and growing many seeds, I am sure more progress would have been made by now.

The first thing is you have to breed out the bad qualities, while retaining some of the genes for the good qualities, and then you have to breed back to try to more fully get the genes for the good qualities.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 02, 2022, 04:45:36 AM »
I like swingle citrumelo as a lemon substitute too.
Many people say Dunstan citrumelo is not too far from the feel of a lemon, and at its best is almost edible without too much trifoliate taste.
Well, more like a sour grapefruit of course, but it might make a good starting point. Maybe cross it with a normal lemon. I doubt that resulting hybrid would have cold tolerance, so you'd probably have to take a large number of seeds from the resulting fruit of that new hybrid, and see if any of the subsequent offspring have cold tolerance. It would probably take one more generation to bring out all those recessive genes.

I think that may be why developing hardy citrus has not been so easy and many have not succeeded.
If you just take trifoliate and cross it with another normal citrus, and then take that and cross it once more with another normal citrus that has no cold tolerance, very little of the original trifoliate cold tolerance is going to manifest, even under the best chances. I think you would have to do one more additional self-cross after that, to have any chance of strengthening back the cold tolerance genes.

It's clearly obvious that most of the genes for cold tolerance do not appear to be dominant genes.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: March 01, 2022, 05:48:06 PM »
What Iím wondering is how adversely would pure citron affect hardiness in comparison to lemons?  How do citrons and lemons generally compare to each other in hardiness? Iím not even sure which citron would be a good start as I know less about that species.
This is the way I would think of it. Lemons are only more hardy because sour orange has been introduced into the citron ancestry. Sour orange is moderately hardy, mainly I think because it is so vigorous growing and can easily recover so fast. Chinotto sour orange is known to be able to survive down to 18 F (although I have tasted them and they are rather bitter, not ideal for any culinary use, although it is not completely impossible to be able to "snack" on one small fruit. other sour oranges are better in quality, such as the traditional marmalade orange).

So do we really want sour orange introduced into our lemon line to add more hardiness. I personally do not think that is ideal. The trade-off for increase in hardiness (which is not great) might not be worth the more orange flavor. The only difference is that citron can only grow in climate zone 10, does not always do well in 10a, whereas a normal lemon can easily grow in 10a and often can be grown in 9b. It might only very much struggle in 9a. (I am sure many more expert citrus growers might disagree with me)
Of course you could easily begin with a regular lemon (such as Lisbon) if that is easier for you. I was just suggesting that theoretically, a citron might be more optimal to begin with. Lisbon still has great flavor and no one will argue it is not "lemon" enough in flavor.

Meyer lemon is believed to have resulted from a more direct cross between citron and mandarin, and is more like equal parts of both, so it is less lemon-like in flavor. A cross already exists between Meyer lemon and trifoliate. It is called citremon.

I thought of this but didn't mention it earlier but I wonder about rough lemons (Jambiri Citrus) as breedstock. Theyíre a mix of citrons and mandarins.
I have tasted fruit from a big tree that I believe was a rough lemon rootstock, and unfortunately, while they are pleasantly fragrant, they are very bitter and completely inedible, not to mention being rather dry on the inside.
I actually tested seedlings grown from seeds of this fruit, and it was not able to survive a winter in the PNW climate zone 8, whereas Yuzu seedlings did survive.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu seedling growing in Washington state
« on: February 17, 2022, 05:50:40 PM »
Another update, February 17, 2022

This is a time when not much is happening in the climate where most northern growers live, but the PNW is kind of a strange climate. Due to the very "mild" (but still cold) winters, all sorts of certain species of plants can be blooming surprisingly late into the early part of winter, or early in the late part of winter (just not during the very coldest part of the winter, which might only last 2 or 3 weeks).

In this picture you can see the Yuzu plant with a Daphne bush right next to it beginning to bloom. (I also saw a large red camellia bush in the neighborhood just beginning to bloom today). On some parts of the plant the leaves are completely fried, other parts nearly completely so, yet on other parts of the plant the leaves seem only moderately damaged. You can still see some leaves on the plant that look green and relatively healthy.

It seems inexplicable, but it does seem noticeable that the longest offshoot of the plant growing the furthest away got almost no leaf burn, when one might expect this to be the branch that would get the most leaf burn, since it is so exposed and furthest away from the canopy of the plant. Two factors may be at play here. First this branch is directly above a stone which may have stored heat, and second, even though it is on the north side it is on the side of the plant that would be less exposed to wind.
The stems of the plant are not damaged at all and still appear very green.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: February 14, 2022, 05:37:49 PM »
Kabosu is consistently reviewed as not very acidic, almost to the point of being insipid. UCR mentions the lack of acidity versus Yuzu and Sudachi. And people who taste them like weird fruit explorer and a few others say the same. Might want to leave that one alone..
You do realize that in Japan Sudachi and Kabosu are traditionally picked green, while they are still not all the way ripe?
Otherwise they lack sourness and become insipid.

Kabosu is a very specific regional citrus and was traditionally only found in one province in Japan, so it was never really widespread in that country.

I have actually tasted an all the way ripe Kabosu picked from the tree, and what it is basically it makes a good marmalade orange, although mild in flavor and not very sour (although still maybe a little more sour than a sweet orange).

The best time to pick Kabosu, assuming you want to use it like a lemon, is while it is still green but turning yellow. If it is already turning orange it is a little too late.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: February 13, 2022, 09:01:25 PM »
The true lemon flavor comes from the original citrus species citron. But I think a little bit of the fragrance of lemon also comes from pomelo as well. The juiciness of lemon does not come (or barely comes) from citron, but rather pomelo and/or mandarin. The proportion of mandarin cannot be too high otherwise the flavor will be too "orange" rather than distinct lemon.

Ichang papeda has a flavor that is half similar to citron, it does not have the "orange" component. (Actually I would describe it as half citron and half Kaffir lime) But the flavor of Ichang papeda is still a little bit inferior to citron, I would say. So to develop a high quality hardy lemon, I think perhaps citron should be bred into there. Unfortunately citron has very little hardiness.

I have had the opportunity to taste citron, both Ichang papeda and Yuzu picked fresh off the tree. And of course I have tasted pomelo. (I have not actually had the opportunity to taste Ichang lemon though)

You could of course try crossing a regular lemon with something else, but my thought was that if you began with a citron rather than a lemon, the resulting hybrid would retain a more distinctive citron/lemon flavor, since the citron ancestry has not been diluted as much.

A direct cross between a lemon and anything else that is really lemon-like, probably is not going to be cold tolerant enough. I think at least two subsequent hybridizations will be required.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardy lemons
« on: February 12, 2022, 01:07:06 AM »
What would be some good cultivars for starting a cold hardy lemon
Maybe if someone bred citron with yuzu and then crossed that with ichang lemon.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Sunquat - monoembryonic?
« on: February 07, 2022, 01:23:50 PM »
I am not sure about Sunquat. However, none of the kumquats come true from seed except Nagami.  Therefore, I would surmise the hybrid Sunquat does not come true.
Except that Sunquat is a kumquat hybrid with Satsuma mandarin. Satsuma mandarins have about 90% nucellar seed (exact genetic clones of fruit parent).
Furthermore, hybrids between different original citrus species which each produce zygotic seed tend to then produce nucellar seed.

I cannot say for sure, but there is good reason to suspect Sunquat might not produce a very big fraction of zygotic seeds. (zygotic meaning coming about as a result of sexual recombination)

(a seed being monoembryonic is usually a strong indicator that the seed is probably zygotic, but this is not always so)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Seedless mandarins like Kishu
« on: February 05, 2022, 09:09:56 PM »
I need a variety that is either not male sterile as I could use it as pollen parent for crossings ...
Most "male sterile" varieties are not completely absolutely sterile and could probably still be used as a pollen parent in controlled crosses, I think.

or is monoembryonic and can be used as mother. At least a part of the outcome should be seedless.
Many polyembryonic varieties could still be used as the fruit parent, since a small percentage of the seeds will still be zygotic. Identify any monoembryonic seeds for best chances of finding a zygotic (resulting from sexual recombination) seedling.
It is just more difficult and inconvenient, since many of the seedlings you are growing will turn out to be genetically identical to the fruit parent.

Also do research about citrus breeding and look up what was used for the crosses. Kishu and Clementine have been used as the fruit parent in crosses. Also Temple oranges.
Any pure species, like pomelo, kumquat, citron, Ichang papeda. These do not produce nucellar (exact genetic clone) seeds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Best lemony scent
« on: February 05, 2022, 09:02:37 PM »
Citron does have a more "pure lemon" fragrance than lemon, in my opinion.
What I mean is that if there was a spectrum between lemon and mandarin, citron would be even further away, slightly past lemon, from mandarin.
The fragrance of citron is nearly the same as lemon, but just a little more "pure". When you smell citron, you realize that lemon has maybe a hint of mandarin/orange smell in it after all.

I would also say that citrons may be somewhat slightly more fragrant than lemon as well, though I could be wrong about this.
(It is a cleaner, more ethereal and less substantial smell in quality though, so actual intensity may not be quite the same thing as perception)

Those who are less discerning and do not pay close attention might say the two smell exactly the same.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu vs. Meyer
« on: February 04, 2022, 05:14:00 PM »
How is Yuzu compared to Meyer, especially also the rind?
An analogy can definitely be drawn between Meyer lemon and Yuzu, but they are also totally different.
The analogy would only be because both of them are somewhat like a lemon but much more on the "orange" or "mandarin orange" side of the flavor than a regular lemon. If a regular lemon is "yellow color" in appearance and flavor, then Meyer and Yuzu would be more in the "orange color" direction. But that is pretty much where the similarity ends.

I would say that Yuzu has some unique fragrance that Meyer lemon does not have. Yuzu is also poor eating quality due to being packed full of a huge number of large sized seeds, the interior flesh not being very juicy, and overall containing only a very small quantity of juice. But the outer rind/peel of Yuzu is tender, mostly lacks bitterness, and I would say is edible or somewhat edible, definitely to a much greater degree than the Meyer lemon. The white pith of Yuzu lacks bitterness and some might even describe it as "sweet". Whereas with a Meyer lemon, you can make a zest from the outer peel but you probably do not so much want to include the white pith, which is nearly useless and has some bitterness like any normal lemon.

In my opinion, a mix of pressed oils from Yuzu peels mixed with the juice of an ordinary lemon would probably be superior to a mix of both the juice and zest peel from a Meyer lemon.

With a Meyer lemon, if you use the peels you are probably going to want to grate and zest it. With Yuzu, they are tender enough that you can simply very finely slice the peels or just mince them. I mean they do not have to be cut up as fine.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Pears in southern CA
« on: February 03, 2022, 08:19:58 PM »
I have been growing the rare Passe Crassane pear. It produced two fruits, two different years. The fruits grew to a decent size, but unfortunately both times the fruits failed to fully mature to ripeness, even after being picked and sitting in storage for 2 months. (The fruits eventually dropped off if not picked) The tree might still be a little immature. Chill hours do not seem to be too much of an issue, even though this is in climate zone 10 (on the border between 10b/10a).
I have speculated that since the variety Passe Crassane is parthenocarpic, chill hours are not as much of an issue.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Seedless mandarins like Kishu
« on: January 31, 2022, 10:28:10 PM »
This article may give you some feel for how complicated and little-studied this issue is

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Seedless mandarins like Kishu
« on: January 31, 2022, 09:59:12 PM »
Satsuma mandarins are another one, but it is harder to breed, since about 90 percent of the seeds are nucellar (genetic clones of fruit parent).

There are three different types of seedlessness in citrus varieties.
Some mandarins and tangerines are parthenocarpic, which means they produce seedless fruits so long as the flowers were not pollinated by some different variety of citrus.
This includes Eureka and Villafranca lemons. Most varieties of navel oranges are at least somewhat parthenocarpic, while Marsh grapefruit and Hamlin orange are more so.
Bear in mind that, to be more precise, the trait of parthenocarpy has to actually be combined with self-incompatibility or male sterility to get seedless fruits.
(self-incompatibility means no seeds are formed, and usually no fruits in non-parthenocarpic varieties, if the flowers are pollinated from the same variety with identical genetic markers. whereas male sterility means the flowers produce little or no pollen)

So as you can see, it is a little complicated.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Bangladeshi Citrus
« on: January 26, 2022, 11:33:03 PM »
The picture looks to me like the type of thing you would get if you crossed a lime with a citron (I mean a lemon with more C. medica ancestry than the usual lemon).

These were to comments made to the video-

"You are probably right about the 1st one, It's just a lemon but a 'desi' lemon and desi fruits are considered the one's grown in villages as apposed to the commercially grown ones. 2nd one is, as the other people pointed out is gondhoraj (gondho means smell/fragrance and raj mean king/royalty so basically king of fragrance), and the third one is kagzi lebu"

"Bangladeshi here, these are all recognized as different varieties of lime. B is called elachi lebu and C is called kagoji lebu in our regional dialect. these are used as you'd normally use lime, for enhancing the taste of curries and daals, for teas etc. My mom loves to use C for lemonade because it's very fragrant. also, we only eat the rind of B as it is very thick and less bitter, goes great with rice and curry."

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: yuzu seeds available - ending Dec 26
« on: January 17, 2022, 03:46:49 PM »
Fresh Yuzu seeds are now available again. Ask within the next 14 days (starting January 17, 2022).

Some additional (low resolution) pictures, so you can see how some of these look in the winter.
Pictures taken January 15, 2022

Here is what the leaves on the Sudachi look like

Ichang papeda

I planted a rooted cutting of Changsha right next to a Yuzu seedling to see how they would do. They are right next to each other. Both are less than 10 cm tall, and they are planted not too far away from the house.

small Changsha (on own roots)

Yuzu seedling (on own roots)

There's another Changsha that's planted in a more protected spot that is bigger and has leaves that look just fine right now. (I believe that one is on grafted rootstock) Interestingly, the leaves on 2 of the other Yuzu bushes (on grafted rootstock) look fried, while another looks bad but the leaves look slightly less than totally burnt. It seems inexplicable, except maybe these Yuzu bushes were just more exposed, did not have the benefit of snow cover.

The leaves on the Bloomsweet are starting to show the effects of the earlier cold now, do not exactly look healthy, but they look like they will survive.

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