Author Topic: Ichanglemonquat?  (Read 1139 times)

Peep

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Ichanglemonquat?
« on: January 14, 2023, 07:39:08 AM »
Hello,

Yesterday I was grafting Ichangquat and Ichang Lemon, then I was thinking: There is Ichangquat and there is Lemonquat (sunquat), so what about an Ichang-Lemon-quat?

Ichangquat is very hardy, but is a bit behind in fruit quality. Lemonquat has higher fruit quality, but lacks hardiness. So Ichanglemonquat could be interesting?

Anyone ever heard of it existing? Or if it doesn't, is there a reason nobody has made it yet? Is it difficult?

Best regards,

mikkel

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2023, 08:02:41 AM »
No, it's not difficult at all. One just has to do it. I suspect the main reason is that not many people intentionally cross-pollinate citrus plants and have the calm to wait for the first fruit.
If I had an IchangLemon, I would do it.

edit: Just thought for a while  the cross you suggested might be (literally by name)

IchangLemon x Kumquat
ichang papeda (I P) x Lemonquat
and also
Ichangquat x Lemon

quite a wide variety of options and results:)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 08:09:19 AM by mikkel »

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2023, 11:48:57 AM »
Haha, yes the naming might get confusing. Maybe 'Shangyuanquat' would be better? :p

I received the CRC 1215 cultivar of Ichang Lemon this week and grafted it, and I have recently received the Nameiwa kumquat as a plant (although I will cut scions from it), so when I have the opportunity it is something I would like to cross. Should I do this two ways, one with Ichang Lemon as pollinator and one with Kumquat als pollinator?

Ichangquat is also already high on my list to make many different crosses with. And also Ichang 'IVIA' x Nameiwa. Which would be an Ichangquat, but maybe little bit different.

I don't have lemonquat and don't plan on getting it so that's for someone else to do :p


mikkel

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2023, 04:37:16 PM »
I see potential in Meiwa Kumquat. It is sweet and maybe hybrids are more likely to be sweet then too... but I am only guessing. How is Nameiwa?
If you have the chance  it would be good to pollinate in both directions. Most of the time there are other restrictions, so if you have the chance to do so, do as much as you can and as many combinations as you can :)
There are always incompatibilities nucellar seeds and so on what can cross your plans.
Most of my plans remained plans because the plants decided otherwise.;)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 04:38:47 PM by mikkel »

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2023, 05:02:36 PM »
I see potential in Meiwa Kumquat. It is sweet and maybe hybrids are more likely to be sweet then too... but I am only guessing. How is Nameiwa?

I agree that it would be goot to have some sweetness. From what I read the Nameiwa is good for eating as they are, on equal level with Meiwa. Although this does not have to mean that it is exactly as sweet. At least the Nameiwa is supposedly more hardy than either Nagami or Meiwa, so that is a plus. 

Edit: Translated from Vessieres about Nameiwa:

"The fruit is a small, oval to round, extremely sweet kumquat. The skin is crisp and soft. The pulp is juicy and sweet too. Powerful aromas of almost mandarin kumquat. Few seeds."
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 05:08:48 PM by Peep »

mikkel

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2023, 05:15:38 PM »
Sounds good! So, I need a Nameiwa too :)

poncirsguy

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2023, 07:32:37 PM »
Where does one get a nameiwa.

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2023, 07:46:18 PM »
Where does one get a nameiwa.

Mine is from Vessieres in France. The cultivar is also available in the US, I think it was created in Texas (not sure though). 

mikkel

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2023, 02:37:44 PM »
Isn`t it a Nagami x Meiwa hybrid?

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2023, 03:20:35 PM »
Isn`t it a Nagami x Meiwa hybrid?

It should be. According to some people, like eyeckr (Virginia Fruit Grower) the Nameiwa is the same as the "ten-degree kumquat".

Which is described here http://citruspages.free.fr/Hardy%20Citrus.pdf

Quote
Ten-Degree Kumquat (Fortunella margarita hybrid) is an openpollinated form from Dr. John Brown of Texas. It makes an exceptionally handsome ornamental tree, with deep green leaves. The leaves are typical kumquat shape, small and pointed, but the ten-degree kumquat has leaves that have a distinctive wavy shape. Fruit are essentially seedless and small kumquat size, about 1 inch long and oblong, with a spicy taste with little juice. The tree is so named because the original survived 7F and more than 60 hours below freezing in Texas. When grafted on trifoliate orange rootstock it eventually grows to about 12 feet tall, making a large globose shrub or small tree.
Flavor: Semi-sweet kumquat, no off-flavors, good quality.
Uses: Dessert, preserves.

I'm not 100% confident that these are always exactly the same cultivar. I don't really see the wavy shape on my plant, unless I don't understand what they try to describe with it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 03:22:49 PM by Peep »

Ilya11

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2023, 05:17:52 PM »
See also here
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2023, 12:42:11 AM »
Yesterday I was grafting Ichangquat and Ichang Lemon, then I was thinking
I have tried growing small plants of Ichanguat grown from seed, and an Ichang lemon in a container outside, in the U.S. PNW zone 8a. I have found these plants can not really grow well here, not without some degree of protection. They will seem to barely survive, and then a colder winter than normal will come along one year and wipe the plants out.

Something strange I have noticed, one year the plants seemed to make it through the winter great, the next year the plants were almost completely destroyed, but it was not the same year. One plant might due well in one year but not another, and then the next year it was the reverse.

Two of the Ichangquat seedlings are dead now, one had a tiny bit of green only an inch above the base but looked close to death. The Ichang lemon looked like it was almost completely killed, but then the next year managed to recover and then survive through the winter outside okay, while other varieties that had done better than Ichang lemon in previous years died. If Ichang lemon has any chance of long term success in this climate, it would only be in a very protected spot, like in the corner of a house with walls surrounding it on two sides.

The Yuzu did not do well last year either. One finally died after a few years of slow decline. That one was planted in a semi-protected spot and was on grafted rootstock.

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2023, 08:50:11 AM »
I have tried growing small plants of Ichanguat grown from seed, and an Ichang lemon in a container outside, in the U.S. PNW zone 8a. I have found these plants can not really grow well here, not without some degree of protection. They will seem to barely survive, and then a colder winter than normal will come along one year and wipe the plants out.

Something strange I have noticed, one year the plants seemed to make it through the winter great, the next year the plants were almost completely destroyed, but it was not the same year. One plant might due well in one year but not another, and then the next year it was the reverse.

Two of the Ichangquat seedlings are dead now, one had a tiny bit of green only an inch above the base but looked close to death. The Ichang lemon looked like it was almost completely killed, but then the next year managed to recover and then survive through the winter outside okay, while other varieties that had done better than Ichang lemon in previous years died. If Ichang lemon has any chance of long term success in this climate, it would only be in a very protected spot, like in the corner of a house with walls surrounding it on two sides.

The Yuzu did not do well last year either. One finally died after a few years of slow decline. That one was planted in a semi-protected spot and was on grafted rootstock.

The Ichangquat I have should be the same one as Ilya's, which for him has survived unprotected in zone 8a for 15 years or more (I don't know exactly when he got it). Which included temperatures down to -16C I believe (3.2F).

It seems the Ichangquat cultivar 6-7-2 is the one that is most cold hardy, while others aren't as much. Although the one we have in Europe is an F2 from 672, so I'm not sure how the US and EU versions of 672 would compare.

For Ichang Lemon I got the CRC1215 cultivar, which from reading on forums should be a good one. I have 30 cultivars of "hardy" citrus now, but I'm sure some will not make it. It will be interesting.

With Yuzu there is also a fair bit of difference in hardiness between yuzu cultivars.

What kind of temperatures did you have when your plants got wiped out?
 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 08:51:44 AM by Peep »

poncirsguy

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2023, 11:52:12 AM »
I let my trees grow to a good size before planting them in ground.



25 gallon pot to in ground.  It is now going through its first winter out side under glass.

poncirsguy

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2023, 11:54:36 AM »
Why not cross a 0F/-18C Marumi kumquat with a 10F Harvey lemon.

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2023, 07:07:56 PM »
Why not cross a 0F/-18C Marumi kumquat with a 10F Harvey lemon.

Marumi seems like it could be interesting, although it seems there is no good consensus on the hardiness of it. Here in Europe, and mainly in France, the Nameiwa has more fame for being a good hardy kumquat. I've not heard much of Marumi so I didn't think it was something interesting. For example, this French nursery lists Nameiwa at -15 https://www.pepiniereagrumesdeprovence.fr/kumquats/101-nameiwa.html and Marumi at -12 https://www.pepiniereagrumesdeprovence.fr/kumquats/98-kumquat-marumi.html, same as Nagami, Meiwa and Fukushu. Of course this doesn't mean that it's correct, but this information seems to be the trend in EU or in France.

I asked Eyeckr about it because he has had both. He says Nameiwa and Marumi are close, possibly Marumi a little bit hardier if he had to guess. I'll give Marumi a chance maybe, if someone can help me with a scion [EU], send me a message!

I think 10F for Harvey Lemon might be a bit optimistic (like 0F for Marumi as well), and I'm not sure if this cultivar exists in Europe. I myself don't think Harvey Lemon would necessarily give better chances at a good result than Ichang Lemon.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2023, 03:33:52 PM »
The Ichangquat I have should be the same one as Ilya's, which for him has survived unprotected in zone 8a for 15 years or more (I don't know exactly when he got it). Which included temperatures down to -16C I believe (3.2F).

It seems the Ichangquat cultivar 6-7-2 is the one that is most cold hardy, while others aren't as much. Although the one we have in Europe is an F2 from 672, so I'm not sure how the US and EU versions of 672 would compare.
Yes, the seeds came from Ilya, but one thing to consider is that Ilya's tree is growing in a very protected spot on the inner corner of two high walls of his house. 
Another factor might be the climate. I suspect there may be something a little bit different about Europe (specifically France's) climate compared to the U.S. PNW. Although the PNW region and France are very similar, zone 8a in Europe may translate to more stable temperatures with fewer ups and downs than in the U.S. I am not sure. It seems many have had more success with varieties in zone 8a Europe than I have had with those varieties here.
Ilya also lives not too far from Paris, which might further be helping, preventing things from getting too cold.

What kind of temperatures did you have when your plants got wiped out?
It went down to almost 12 degrees F, maybe only 14 degrees F (let's say -11 degrees C ),  buried in a foot of snow.
This was preceded by a clear sunny day. Perhaps the sun is a little bit more intense here than in Europe, and that is enough to warm the leaves too much, maybe reducing the level of protective dormancy? The latitude on the planet is not much different (47 degrees north here compared to 48.8 in Paris, which could still make some significant difference), but perhaps the skies here can get a little bit more clear sometimes than in Europe during the winter. I am not sure, it is very likely I am just overthinking this.

Some varieties that seem like they may be able to make it here gradually decline year after year until they finally die.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 03:49:28 PM by SoCal2warm »

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2023, 03:49:08 PM »
Yes, the seeds came from Ilya, but one thing to consider is that Ilya's tree is growing in a very protected spot on the inner corner of two high walls of his house. 

Another factor might be the climate. I suspect there may be something a little bit different about Europe (specifically France's) climate compared to the U.S. PNW. Although the PNW region and France are very similar, zone 8a in Europe may translate to more stable temperatures with fewer ups and downs than in the U.S. I am not sure. It seems many have had more success with varieties in zone 8a Europe than I have had with those varieties here.
Ilya also lives not too far from Paris, which might further be helping, preventing things from getting too cold.

It went down to almost 12 degrees F, maybe only 14 degrees F (let's say -11 degrees C ),  buried in a foot of snow.

Yeah climate might be quite different, a foot of snow also doesn't even happen here. I'm on the edge between zone 8A and 8B as well, and even though Ilya's might be in a good protected spot, temperatures don't go as low where I am when compared to his location.

Keep in mind though that my Ichangquat should be exactly the same as Ilya's, as far as I know, he supplied scions to Adavo and now I got scions from Adavo. So with seedlings it's more of a gamble. Would be interesting to know if it would have made a difference if yours was from a scion from 672 instead of a seed, but we'll never know. At least it seems there is a fair bit of difference in hardiness between Ichangquat seedlings, because other (F1?) Ichangquats have been said to not be as hardy I think.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2023, 03:54:11 PM »
I think being on the border between 8a/8b may have some big advantages over being in zone 8a when growing many of these varieties (like Yuzu, Ichang papeda, Ichang lemon, Ichangquat, etc) At least that is the feeling I have from my experience. These varieties ALMOST would have been able to grow well here if it had just been a very small amount less cold.

The U.S. South is a totally different situation, however. I suspect being farther north with a shorter growing season, the plants cannot handle as low temperatures or are not as easily able to recover from damage. From reports I have read, it seems like many people in the U.S. South are able to grow these varieties in their zone 8a, sometimes even on the border between 7b/8a.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 04:00:05 PM by SoCal2warm »

Peep

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Re: Ichanglemonquat?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2023, 07:31:09 PM »
Why not cross a 0F/-18C Marumi kumquat with a 10F Harvey lemon.

I have received a Marumi kumquat (https://agrumilenzi.it/en/negozio/kumquats/kumquatsen/round-kumquat-fortunella-japonica/)

This one is grafted on Carrizo and the Nameiwa I received some time ago is on C35 so in a few weeks I'll graft both onto Poncirus and then I'll be able to see how they compare in handling the cold. Might take a few years for results though :p

 

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