Author Topic: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2  (Read 798 times)

David Kipps

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Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« on: April 17, 2023, 02:24:37 PM »
The previous winter, these trees all survived with gradual leaf loss toward totality by spring.  This past winter went different.  The Christmas cold and wind burnt the edges of the leaves, but did not kill them, leaving many of them to still be alive and green till now.  Even after a couple of weeks passed, it looked like there would be near 100% tree survival, but sometime in March I realized that quite a number were dying.  So I've ended up with some being nearly evergreen and others dead and others in-between.  In the picture, the whiteish dead twigs at the top were late tender growth that was killed as expected at the beginning of winter (which happens anyway, any year, even on P. trifoliata).  The more golden dead twigs (one with orange ribbon) are from the disappointing late winter kill off of trees that had survived the last several winters.

David Kipps

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2023, 02:29:55 PM »





Till

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2023, 02:53:25 PM »
David, I take your experience as an encouragement. I have a tree that is probably the Yuma Citrange / Sacaton Citrumelo. I do not know it for sure as it was mislabed when I bought it. It is for sure a citrumelo and it produces a lot of zygotic seeds. Then I hope they do as good as yours.

By the way, how would you describe the taste of Yuma Citrange? My fruits are very aromatic, a little bit sweet, firm pulp but otherwise juicy, bitter with resinuous flavor, peel definitely inedible but oils in the peel with a very nice odour. Fruits have a nice smell at the outside. Size a bit more than 2 inch (more than 5cm). Segment walls firm. When this describtion fits to your Yuma Citrange than that would make me more confident that I also have the Yuma Citrange.

Did you get fruits from your F2 seedlings? How old are they?

David Kipps

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2023, 09:38:25 PM »
Till,  Thanks for your description of the fruits.  That is interesting and I will save it for doing some comparisons, hopefully.  I have never seen or had any of the fruits, because my trees are seedlings from bought seed.  For several years (8+ years ago) I bought seed by the quart from "Willits & Newcomb, Inc." in California.  (I think it is new ownership and name now.) They produced seed for nurseries to use to grow rootstocks.  The nurseries would keep only the uniform seedlings to graft commercial citrus onto, while weeding out any deviants.  Opposite of this, my goal was to keep the deviants, hoping for the zygotic genetic recombinations, and let the nucellar clones die out in my zone 7 winters, along with any non-hardy recombinations.   The last (and largest) batch of seed I bought were originally said to be Sacaton Citrumelo, but later they said they were Yuma Citrange.  So I am not 100% sure which they were and am for now just assuming their last designation is the correct one.  From what I have read, the Yuma does have a significant percentage of zygotic seed, and I have gotten a fair number of diverse plants from them (of course the vast majority of the thousands of seedlings have long since frozen to death, or were choked out by weeds).  Last summer was the first any of these bloomed (just a few late blooms with too little time left to mature).   Maybe this year I will get a fruit or two.  I was quite disappointed that some of my largest trees died this winter/spring after doing so well the past several years.  I am theorizing that their root system was not hardy enough, because the above ground trees looked good until they discolored late.  Fortunately I had grafted some of them onto P. trifoliata elsewhere, and those survived well.  So I think it was a root hardiness issue.  If you come up with promising individuals, be sure to graft them onto something hardier for insurance.

Ilya11

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2023, 04:04:13 AM »
Very interesting project David, resembling what is achieved by kumin.
 I wonder what is your attrition rate and how these survived seedlings are different from poncirus in appearance.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Till

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2023, 04:15:54 AM »
Thank you, David, for your reply. When the oldest of your seedlings are 8 years old then they grow pretty well for zone 7. Good!

There seems to be a name confusion regarding Yuma Citrange and Sacaton Citrumelo. Both names seem to have been mixed up at an early stage of the variety. In addition, there seem to be two types of Sacaton Citrumelo. One is said to produce about 40% of zygotic seeds, the other almost only nucellar seeds. Cf. https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3205 and https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3337 and https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3414. The information about the seeds is from a Book of Bernhard Voss.

I bought my tree from a person that had a small nursery or lets better say was a hobby gardener that sold hardy citrus among other plants. His list has serval spelling mistakes and other mistakes. The tree I bought was called "Yuma Gwangne Poncirus x Changsha Citrandarin" which is nonesense. I suppose that the part "Poncirus x Changsha Citrandarin" mistakenly swamped into the line but belongs to the line below, so is in fact an independant variety. The part "Yuma Gwangne" is probably from an handwritten letter with a difficult handwriting that said "Yuma Citrange". Now, the tree is definitely a citrumelo, fruits and habit leave no doubt. I conclude from all this that the "Yuma "Gwangne..." that I have is in fact the Sacaton Citrumelo with zygotic seeds that was mislabed "Yuma Citrange" in the US at the beginning. No hard facts I admit but quite plausible.

It is a bit too early to say what percentage of zygotic seeds my Citrumelo has but the tiny seedlings are already different enough that 40% will not be claimed too much.

mikkel

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2023, 04:51:08 AM »
Nice project!  I have some Sacaton seedlings in my garden for a few years. They stay small and grow very slowly. The last 2 winters they kept their leaves, but this winter resulted in total leaf loss and probably some died completely.

My plants are now in their 3rd winter but only 40cm tall. How old are yours?

I also have a Yuma Citrange (Z252) from the Eisenhut nursery in Switzerland. It is quite hardy in the pot and survives in the shelter even when the pot is nearly frozen. So far it has had only unripe, seedless fruit. However, my impression is that it might be a type of citrumelo rather than a citrange.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 05:08:13 AM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2023, 05:00:51 AM »
Sacaton F2 in my garden in summer



by now (Spring 2023)



« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 05:08:41 AM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2023, 05:04:18 AM »
some monofoliate Sacaton seedlings (in the middle)



Yuma Z252 from Eisenhut nursery


mikkel

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2023, 05:07:25 AM »
another Yuma in a private collection probably the one that came from Bernhard Voss



afruit


Florian

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2023, 06:04:00 AM »
I'll throw in my two cents worth:

I was able to pick ripe fruit of Eisenhut's Yuma and Sacaton in December 2017. At that time of year, most Sacaton were yellow but quite a few Yuma were still greenish. Both of Eisenhut's plants are undoubtedly Citrumelos. The Yuma is bigger and better in every way than the Sacaton. Fruit is about double the size and weight and flavour is much better (though not quite as good as Nr. 82). Sacaton is small, seedy and tastes awful with a lot of Poncirine present. None of the seedlings from the Sacaton seeds came true to the mother, while the Yuma seedlings appear to be identical to the mother tree. I have given away the Yumas but kept about five of the oddball Sacaton seedlings. They stayed outdoors the last two winters (down to -10 C, sometimes a week or so below 0 C) without any problem and kept all their leaves.

Sacaton


Yuma


Sacaton


Yuma


David Kipps

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2023, 10:20:09 AM »
Till, Mikkel, and Florian:  You each mention concluding an identity of citrumelo based on appearances.  I don't feel experienced enough to make that judgement, especially before getting fruit.  What difference in foliage and branches do you see between a citrumelo versus a citrange?  I really haven't worried much about mistaken identities on my sources since I'm only interested in the diverse outcomes possible in the F2 generation, rather than the uniform true F1 generation.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 02:28:47 PM by David Kipps »

kumin

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2023, 10:45:13 AM »
The first factor determining seedling variation is whether the seedlings are Nucellar clones of the parent tree. If they are Zygotic they may display a large variability in leaf, as well as other characteristics. Advanced Filial generations will allow previously hidden, recessive genes to be expressed.
I wouldn't expect total uniformity in the zygotic F generation, and increasingly less uniformity in the F, F,  etc generations.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 04:01:41 AM by kumin »

mikkel

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2023, 03:22:01 AM »
Hello David, I have concluded with my Yuma on the basis of the fruits that it must be a Citrumelo rather than a Citrange. But I am not quite sure yet.

You are of course right that for the F2 it doesn't really matter which variety exactly the parent plants were, except possibly for protocol purposes, so that others can understand what happened there.

In any case, the seedlings are new varieties.

Your plants are very impressive.



Till

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Re: Winter damage, Yuma citrange F2
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2023, 05:12:23 PM »
Hello David, I concluded it mainly from the fruits. They have a rind like a grapefruit or pummelo. It looks like grapefruits or pummelo skin and it is thick. Skin color is yellow. Pulp quite firm. That alone points to a pummelo or grapefruit in the background.  (The firm pulp reminds one of pummelo (C. maxima). But a grapefruit (C. paradisi) is also 50% pummelo so may also have passed this attribute to its offspring.)
When I compare my assumed Yuma Citrange / Sacaton Citrumelo with Swingle 5 Star then I see that it is very similar. Leaves have a similar form, are also thick, flowers look almost the same, fruits look much the same. If I compare it to Dunstan Citrumelo I come up with the same result. Dunstan has more different leaves but also thick ones, fruits and flowers look very much like those of Swingle 5 Star and Yuma Citrange / Sacaton Citrumelo.
The only Poncirus x C. maxima cross that I know is African Shadock x Poncirus. That variety is not so similar to the three before mentioned ones. Leaves are bigger and thinner. Fruits are bigger, less yuicy, rind more uneven. But the pummelo heritage is clear enough.

I am not an expert of citranges and citrumelos. The only Citrange that I have is Morton. I had own fruits from Dunstan and Swingle 5 Star. My Swingle Citrumelo flowers for the first time this year. Yet, I would say that the relationship between my Yuma Citrange / Sacaton Citrumelo and grapefruits is just striking. And all citranges that I know from the internet have fruits that look much more like mandarines or sweet oranges than like grapefruits.

Disclaimer: I said Yuma Citrange / Sacaton Citrumelo. Its only my guess that this is the variety of my tree. According to the pictures it could well be the Sacaton from Eisenhut.

 

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