Author Topic: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse  (Read 872 times)

incubator01

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cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« on: February 21, 2021, 08:42:23 AM »
I'm getting a Kumquat and shikuwasa soon because they're cold hardy for our winters and I don't have to worry too much about the plant dying from the cold (though I will protect it) but I prefer to plant these in full soil, not in containers in the greenhouse (because that's where I can plant whatever i want).
My question is, will such citrus survive warmer summers? Often I have potted citrus that get dried out leaves when the sun shines and the temperature rises above 32 C, even during heat waves inside the greenhouse it gets to 50 C.
The greenhouse is 4.5m long, 3m wide and 2.7m high, the sunny side has a shade cloth because the whole thing gets plenty of sun light anyway and has 4 windows and a double door. Naturally I open up everything completely when temps rise above 25 C but I just want to make sure that I'm not making a stupid decision of planting these in the greenhouse.
As to why I want them in full soil:
- I prefer to limit the  citrus in containers
- Full soil has better moisture management and root development for long term
- no need to hassle with giant containers in the later phases.


Ilya11

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 09:46:08 AM »
 I guess that with proper ventilation and shading you can avoid +50C in the greenhouse. Most citruses will not survive such heat.
As to the winter, unheated greenhouse is not particularly effective under long anticyclonic freezes. Kumquats are rather hardy, but only at   vegetation rest. They are late and fruits will be damaged before ripe.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

poncirsguy

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 10:05:19 AM »
What kind of kumquat are you getting.  My kumquats produce fruit January through March.

February picture

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2021, 10:18:51 AM »
What kind of kumquat are you getting.  My kumquats produce fruit January through March.

February picture

I'm getting the Fortunella Reale, oval kumquat.

Our winter temperatures usually float around -4 to -7C but last winter we had an exceptionally cold one of -10C.
I was going to cover them up with a fleece cover regardless but still, the summer is worrying me more.
I do not have the accommodation or space to place ventilation systems in the greenhouse. Only the 4 windows and double door to open up.

maesy

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2021, 01:49:23 PM »
Why don't you plant them outside and just cover them for the occasionally cold nights you can get?

kumin

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2021, 02:41:50 PM »
If trees only need short-term intermittent protection, they could be planted under a skeletal framework, then only covered when then need arises. Having a durable skeleton would provide rigid protection against snow and wind. Having removable cover materials would allow for all the ventilation needed. 

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2021, 03:22:53 PM »
Why don't you plant them outside and just cover them for the occasionally cold nights you can get?

First of all not every part of my garden is for me alone, that's why I have a greenhouse. This means I also cannot plant them outside and build a rigid construction around it, because the heavy wind in january / february would blow it away if these parts are removable. (Yes even the roof of my garage got lifted by the wind once)

Second, it rains a lot here, when it does, it rains for 3 weeks pretty much non stop. Any citrus would drown in it. No matter how well draining the garden soil would be.

poncirsguy

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2021, 08:35:51 PM »
incubator01  Are you near a bridge to far.  Does your kumquat fall under the name of Nagami.  Nagami kumquats handle high heat very well. A picture of an 8 year old seed grown Nagami kumquat I gave to a friend 7 ears ago



incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 05:53:26 AM »
incubator01  Are you near a bridge to far.  Does your kumquat fall under the name of Nagami.  Nagami kumquats handle high heat very well. A picture of an 8 year old seed grown Nagami kumquat I gave to a friend 7 ears ago



No, it's latin name is Fortunella Margarita.
That plant looks very nice, I'm also growing a few kumquat from seed, just to see what it will do in many years :)

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2021, 11:00:47 AM »
incubator01  Are you near a bridge to far.  Does your kumquat fall under the name of Nagami.  Nagami kumquats handle high heat very well. A picture of an 8 year old seed grown Nagami kumquat I gave to a friend 7 ears ago



Sorry for the extremely late reply but I have to correct my previous response.
The seller does label my kumquat as Nagami.
And since I recently noticed that one of the 2 is starting to lose a lot of leaves because of the many winds (I do place them behind a wall when sunny ot get the sun or under a patio when windy/storm etc but no matter what, both locations seem to bother the kumquat wind-wise.
One of them is in my greenhouse and is literally enjoying himself like hell (growing new branches, leaves, riping fruits etc), the other one in a bigger pot (yes I know, the pot is too big but I take care to prevent root rot) is outside on either of mentioned locations.
But the past weeks we have very bad rainy windy weather with thunderstorms.
So I am heavily considering moving that one to my greenhouse too in the future.

The following website ( https://www.plantfoodathome.com/kumquat-tree/ ) mentions the nagami can handle 38+ C ( 100+ degrees F) so if that is true, then I think it's better to move him inside the greenhouse.

Again sorry for not figuring this out sooner :(

tedburn

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2021, 02:09:59 PM »
I have my greenhause since last autumn. And by reading your question and Ilyas answer, I also asked me what to do in summer. I have a heating system for winter which I could also use for ventilation in summer. But by thinking about I had the idea additional to the door and the window taking out a wall panel, perhaps then this is sufficient to limit the heat to under 40 degree Celsius. Perhaps this is also possible in your greenhouse ( if this works) ?

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2021, 03:08:16 PM »
I have my greenhause since last autumn. And by reading your question and Ilyas answer, I also asked me what to do in summer. I have a heating system for winter which I could also use for ventilation in summer. But by thinking about I had the idea additional to the door and the window taking out a wall panel, perhaps then this is sufficient to limit the heat to under 40 degree Celsius. Perhaps this is also possible in your greenhouse ( if this works) ?

Unfortunately I cannot remove wall panels, definitely not without breaking anything , especially the warranty xD
No, if we do get another heat wave I will have to move it out of the greenhouse again but then there is also almost no wind, but right now and under normal summer temps, it should survive

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2021, 09:17:02 AM »
If I'd set up a new greenhouse I would prefer a foilhouse. Modern foil greenhouses offer better isolation than glass houses and you can easily remove the walls.

poncirsguy

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2021, 09:37:00 AM »
I just used my house for the north wall of the greenhouse and used lights for extra heat when needed.  My east south, and west walls are 4 layers glass thick.  The roof is 2 layers thick with an insulated R6 blanket covering at night and very cold cloudy days.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 01:52:42 PM by poncirsguy »

brian

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2021, 10:09:40 PM »
what is a foilhouse?  I have never heard of this and a google search turns up nothing helpful.

I am thinking of setting up a sprinkler on the ceiling of my greenhouse facing downward, and setting it on a timer to saturate the soil every morning so the water can evaporate and cool the air when the hot sun comes out.  I have a fogging system already which is excellent at cooling but even with relatively pure water I still get some scale buildup.  My hope is that if the water is evaporating from the ground the minerals will stay in the ground.  I have been spraying the foliage almost every day already to keep spider mites and mealybugs in check and I have not seen any scale from from that yet.

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2021, 06:04:30 AM »
If I'd set up a new greenhouse I would prefer a foilhouse. Modern foil greenhouses offer better isolation than glass houses and you can easily remove the walls.

I had those for 3 years, first the green foil which rippled apart when the sun got too hot, then I bought thicker white foil, but the problem is proper ventilation, I'd need to cut holes for air etc in it and then a colleague at work told me to just get a proper new greenhouse, with thick safety glass (4mm, it can resist minor hail and when it breaks it breaks like your car window) and so I also had the option to choose 4 windows in the roof, filtered roof glass to filter a small bit of the sun out for at noon, and a double door for proper air passage and passing large pots :)
I never looked back since, the foil they sell here is crap, just good enough to grow strawberries when the weather is not too hot yet.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2021, 06:04:47 AM »
I was talking about a professional greenhouse with at least 1000m better 3000m No hommade version. The more volume cou can enclose the better will get the climate in your greenhouse. With a professional foil greenhouse you can widely open the sidewalls.  ;)

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2021, 08:56:54 AM »
I was talking about a professional greenhouse with at least 1000m better 3000m No hommade version. The more volume cou can enclose the better will get the climate in your greenhouse. With a professional foil greenhouse you can widely open the sidewalls.  ;)

That is true, however I lack the space for that, and they're pretty pricey here too, for that price I had a proper glass greenhouse. However I really wished mine was a bit higer, temperature management is difficult at times because the greenhouse's roof height is 2.5m ( = 98.4 inch or so) and it really should be 20% higher at least. But then I'd have to choose a much bigger greenhouse which is wider and longer and again I was not allowed that much space in my garden :(
I am well aware that the large industrial size greenhouses are heaven in terms of temperature management, even without special equipment to regulate it automatically. But that's something I can only dream of.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2021, 06:15:51 AM »
That is true, however I lack the space for that, and they're pretty pricey here too, for that price I had a proper glass greenhouse. However I really wished mine was a bit higer, temperature management is difficult at times because the greenhouse's roof height is 2.5m ( = 98.4 inch or so) and it really should be 20% higher at least. But then I'd have to choose a much bigger greenhouse which is wider and longer and again I was not allowed that much space in my garden :(
I am well aware that the large industrial size greenhouses are heaven in terms of temperature management, even without special equipment to regulate it automatically. But that's something I can only dream of.
[/quote]

I dream of going professional with my citrus production  ;)

lebmung

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2021, 05:57:47 PM »
I have a plastic foil for 6 years no problem with it.  Here is very hot in summer with temperatures outside at 35C+ for a month or two, and I have like 40-45C in greenhouse everyday, not a problem for more tropical citrus as long as it's humid. Key limes and fingerlimes like it.

incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2021, 05:15:13 AM »
I have a plastic foil for 6 years no problem with it.  Here is very hot in summer with temperatures outside at 35C+ for a month or two, and I have like 40-45C in greenhouse everyday, not a problem for more tropical citrus as long as it's humid. Key limes and fingerlimes like it.

Yes but yours is the white foil which is more UV resistant that I bought the same year my colleague convinced me to get a proper greenhouse ;)
Also I'm not a Mr HandyMan so getting the plastic foil with no pre-made window holes etc was a bit of a downside.
 
However I think it  is the temperature fluctuations that are a problem here too, despite low wind, my kumquats (nagami which should handle 38+C) lost a few leaves simply from the sudden temperature increase from night to day as soon as the sun started to shine on it and the windows were not fully open yet.

Citradia

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2021, 09:44:21 PM »
Heres my meiwa kumquat on flying dragon rootstock. Been there for past eight years or so. I wrap 4 mil plastic around three sides and south or east side is a roll-up door to vent on days above freezing. Roof is a separate sheet of plastic stapled to the wood frame which is secured to ground by iron stakes through eyelet in brackets on each leg of frame. I too have high winter winds blowing from northwest on my mountain top home and learned the hard way that frames have to be sunk into ground or if temporary are staked to ground. If I was afraid of heavy rains for three months in summer, I might consider leaving the roof cover on the frame and just take down the plastic sheeting walls in summer. My small space heater in each tree enclosure is controlled by a thermostat called thermo cube which helps overwinter the fruit.






incubator01

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2021, 10:07:22 AM »
Heres my meiwa kumquat on flying dragon rootstock. Been there for past eight years or so. I wrap 4 mil plastic around three sides and south or east side is a roll-up door to vent on days above freezing. Roof is a separate sheet of plastic stapled to the wood frame which is secured to ground by iron stakes through eyelet in brackets on each leg of frame. I too have high winter winds blowing from northwest on my mountain top home and learned the hard way that frames have to be sunk into ground or if temporary are staked to ground. If I was afraid of heavy rains for three months in summer, I might consider leaving the roof cover on the frame and just take down the plastic sheeting walls in summer. My small space heater in each tree enclosure is controlled by a thermostat called thermo cube which helps overwinter the fruit.






I saw those pictures in a different topic here and I was indeed planning to do something similar for a cold hardy citrus that I can safely plant outside in a few years, to protect it from heavy wind gushes and prevent branch damage and also to prevent overwatering from too much rain :)

lebmung

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Re: cold hardy citrus in full soil in greenhouse
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2021, 05:18:56 PM »
I would add straw or leaves around it covering up and outside around the soil rocks or water bottles painted black.